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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? (Read 57987 times)
Plyo
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Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #24 - 12/02/13 at 18:39:04
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I'm going to say little and here's why:

People have been claiming that the KG is unsound for the last 150 years.
I wonder how many people did the following:
A, checked the creative ideas suggested by the old masters (namely Bronstein).
B, went through the "main lines" with Houdini (and a proper computer) to verify the variations.
C, looked at the sacrifices for more than just a few moves (meaning, running them through from start to finish).
D, going through the process in a way that is similar to reverse engineering. i.e, fixing the moves to plans, thematically, as opposed to trying to be overly aggressive.

Here are my conclusions after several months into such work (and still running!):
1) The KG is completely 100% sound.
2) In most cases the main lines doesn't even deserve to be the fourth side lines and there are far better choices.
3) The thematic response (which most people here championed as best) ...g5 is double edged and in most cases NOT to black's advantage.
4) The so called Fischer refutation is utter nonsense. I already found 3 different ways where white is clearly better.
5) The fact that people consider it unsound is fantastic because I keep winning games in lines they're not familiar with.

I have absolutely no intention to reveal what I discovered because so far I'm gaining elo points.
What I will say is that with the aid of modern computers and the ease of finding plans I find it mystifying how very few people put in the work and learned why the KG is a great opening.

In my opinion, I think that the reason has to do with over aggression. People want to play the KG in order to get some insane attacks and those do happen of course but in the process they will often not play a simple plan that gives white a clear edge due to a better centre, better development and better positional occupations.

There are also good lines for black, for sure. I found several.... surprisingly, none of them appear in the databases and therefore, I have no intention of expressing them here.

Put in the work people, trust me, it's rewarding and you will not regret it.

So my suggestion. Don't play 1...e5.
Play 1...Nc6 and if white plays 2.Nf3 then you can play 2...e5 and transpose back to the Ruy.
  
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Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #23 - 11/29/13 at 10:25:01
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flaviddude wrote on 11/29/13 at 01:09:37:
Against Bishops gambit.

1.e4 e5 2. f4 exf 3. Bc4 Nc6 is best.

      


One key idea is that a move or two later, you are liable to reach a position where pawns on e4 and d4 face Knights on f6 and c6. Whilst it's possible to advance the pawns, the Bishop on c4 is little vulnerable, as after d4-d5, you have N c6-e5 hitting the Bishop whilst on e4-e5 you have d7-d5. If the Bishop moves you can follow with Nf6-e4.

As suggested, Black may not need yet another decent defence to the Kings Knights Gambit, but the Adelaide move order has its points. (1. e4 e5 2. f4 Nc6 3. Nf3 f5). If 3 Bc4 then 3. .. exf4 transposing to the Kings Bishops Gambit in the line being discussed. It's been noted that the Shaw book is limited in its coverage of the Adelaide, but the New in Chess Yearbooks have covered it. There's no sign yet of anything that might refute it.
  
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flaviddude
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Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #22 - 11/29/13 at 01:09:37
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I have been playing King's Gambit for over fifty years especially in correspondence.

Against Bishops gambit.

1.e4 e5 2. f4 exf 3. Bc4 Nc6 is best. I played the line against a 2300 ICCF  rated player and white had to fight for a draw. Shaw has found a better line for black than I played.

Against Knight's gambit. 

You pay your money and you take your choice.

There are two ways to play against the Kieseritzy which kill the game in its tracks. So if a draw is a great result for white then play straight down the line. If black does not take the early draws then play gets really treacherous for both players.

The modern defence is best approached by the move order.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd exf which curtails whites options. Shaw deals very well with this line. As white you only need to know the Bb5 lines but as black you need to know them all. White players be warned. One slip and black will be all over you like a rash. I am talking from experience.

  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #21 - 11/07/13 at 12:36:52
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GabrielGale wrote on 11/06/13 at 08:26:48:
But what I found interesting was that she does not mention John Shaw's "refutation of 3 Bc4 which is 3…Nc6 but only mentions 3…Nf6 (her main move) and 3…Qh4+.

Does this mean that a Black player would not play 3…Nc6? Is there anything wrong with it?


I remember using Micawber's KG Forum eBook to prepare this as Black last year, and won easily (vs a strong GM). I can see nothing wrong with it.
  
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GabrielGale
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Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #20 - 11/07/13 at 01:03:26
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That is a pity. I would like to have another opinion albeit from someone less than a GM level on the 3…Nc6 line form a practical OTB p.o.v.
I borrowed the tome from a friend and I am very impressed. John Shaw did a very good job. Even though there isn't a chapter on the strategical ideas, he has this critical positions almost picture perfect for a learner to stop and analyse. I intend to write a lengthier review from a perspective of <1800 player once I have gone through the book at a greater depth.
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #19 - 11/06/13 at 19:46:23
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It most likely means that Abby Marshall didn't do a very good job of covering the line.
  
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #18 - 11/06/13 at 08:26:48
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Not sure where to put this and did not wish to start a new thread, hence decided to tag it here.

Over at ChessCafe, Abby Marshall has written about the King's Bishop Gambit in her latest monthly column http://www.chesscafe.com/abby/abby50.htm. She cites Thomas Johansson's TFKG as well as John Shaw's mammoth KG.

But what I found interesting was that she does not mention John Shaw's "refutation of 3 Bc4 which is 3…Nc6 but only mentions 3…Nf6 (her main move) and 3…Qh4+.

Does this mean that a Black player would not play 3…Nc6? Is there anything wrong with it?
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #17 - 09/30/13 at 07:08:39
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Bibs wrote on 09/26/13 at 11:17:27:
Yes, agree it was a rubbish comment.


Okay, all reputable defences. I took that as given. If you really need things spelt out perhaps chess isn't the game for you.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #16 - 09/29/13 at 03:50:36
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ghenghisclown wrote on 09/28/13 at 09:38:39:
LeeRoth wrote on 12/05/09 at 18:32:45:
The Nimzovich Counter Gambit is good for blitz.     


This makes it seem like there's something wrong with it for classical time controls.
Like what?


Good for blitz because there are some tricks.  But with proper play, I think White gets an edge.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 c6 4.Nc3 exf4 5.Nf3 Bd6 6.d4 Ne7 7.dxc6 Nbxc6 8.Bc4 O-O 9.O-O Bg4 10.Ne4 Bc7 11.c3 Ng6 12.Nf2 Bf5 13.Bd3 +/=

It's not so bad for Black, but if Black can get equality or even  =/+ in the main lines, why not play those?
« Last Edit: 09/29/13 at 13:15:24 by LeeRoth »  
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #15 - 09/28/13 at 13:27:09
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I've been looking at that 3...Ne7 line in preparation for uploading another series of articles on the King's Gambit for my chess openings site. 
Of course Martin Breutigam is a stronger player than I, but I think his assessments that White is the one fighting for equality are a little optimistic. 

I considered 4.d4 d5 (An alternative way for Black to play this line is 4...Ng6!?, e.g. 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nc3 c6 8.Bb3 with full compensation for the pawn) 5.Nc3 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Nd5 (also given by Breutigam, with the assessment that White is fighting for equality) 7.Bd3 Be7 8.0-0 (8.c4 can lead to complications after 8...Ne3 9.Qe2 f5 10.Nc3 0-0) 8...0-0 9.Nc3 Ne3 (9...Nc6 is a sensible alternative, also leading to equal chances) 10.Bxe3 fxe3 11.Qe2, Short-Giri, Amsterdam 2010.

4.Nc3 is also playable but 4...d5 5.d4 dxe4 transposes to the previous line.

I didn't consider 4.Bc4 in my analysis but as Breutigam pointed out, it is likely to transpose to a main line of the Modern Defence.  Following 4...d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.0-0, I agree with him that 6...Be6! 7.Bb3 c5 (Nakamura-Adams, London 2011) currently looks like the most critical test, but I feel that instead of 8.Kh1 or 8.d4 (both of which indeed leave White struggling to reach equality) 8.c4 and 8.d3 are superior alternatives.

Nonetheless I have to conclude that 3...Ne7 is objectively about as good as the Modern Defence and that Black should achieve dynamically equal play against all White responses.
  
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #14 - 09/28/13 at 10:05:11
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Today on ChessBase an article on the 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Ne7 system was made freely available: http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211/PostId/4011328/chessbase-magazine-156--d.... I haven't checked the analysis but it does seem a reasonable way to reach favourable lines of 3...d5 and avoid others. Of course White can play 4.d4 but it doesn't seem that scary to me. Presumably Shaw covers this line in more detail.
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #13 - 09/28/13 at 09:38:39
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LeeRoth wrote on 12/05/09 at 18:32:45:
The Nimzovich Counter Gambit is good for blitz.     


This makes it seem like there's something wrong with it for classical time controls.
Like what?
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #12 - 09/26/13 at 11:17:27
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JEH wrote on 09/26/13 at 09:19:55:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 09/26/13 at 07:18:56:
All lines against the King's Gambit are good.


One refutation you don't see in the books is 1. e4 e5 2. f4 g5!!

After the mainline tries 3. Nf3, 3. Nc3 or 3. Bc4, black simply plays 3. ...gf! rather than losing central control with ef.

Any other White moves such as time wasting pawn or Queen moves wouldn't meet the classical needs of the position. Pretty much a refutation. It's been engine checked with Houdini which gave it a big number in it's evaluation  Cool


Yes, agree it was a rubbish comment.
  
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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #11 - 09/26/13 at 09:19:55
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 09/26/13 at 07:18:56:
All lines against the King's Gambit are good.


One refutation you don't see in the books is 1. e4 e5 2. f4 g5!!

After the mainline tries 3. Nf3, 3. Nc3 or 3. Bc4, black simply plays 3. ...gf! rather than losing central control with ef.

Any other White moves such as time wasting pawn or Queen moves wouldn't meet the classical needs of the position. Pretty much a refutation. It's been engine checked with Houdini which gave it a big number in it's evaluation  Cool
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black?
Reply #10 - 09/26/13 at 07:18:56
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Reverse wrote on 12/04/09 at 13:29:06:
what is the best line for black against the King's gambit?


All lines against the King's Gambit are good. Rather than trying to learn the "best" one, go for the one you like the look of, that leads to the type of positions you like to play. And then make that your pet line.

Personally, I play 2...exf4 3 Nf3 h5!?.

Reverse wrote on 12/04/09 at 13:29:06:
On a side note I beat my first master a couple years ago in the following manner, I was black.

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Bc4 f5!?!


Yes, I've played this as Black. It's fine.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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