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 C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? (Read 33636 times)
 Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2857 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #39 - 11/27/14 at 20:51:46 chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 09/16/14 at 20:58:27:I think the simple Nimzowitsch Gambit with c6 as explained in Foxy 119 - Anti-Gambit Guide 1 1.e4 - Martin is good for Black playable, dynamic equality, best player with either colour has wriggle room. IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #38 - 09/16/14 at 20:58:27 I think the simple Nimzowitsch Gambit with c6 as explained in Foxy 119 - Anti-Gambit Guide 1 1.e4 - Martin is good for Black IP Logged
 BladezII Senior Member Offline Member of chesspublishing .com and STC Club Posts: 402 Joined: 11/01/04 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #37 - 03/03/14 at 07:50:32 I am amazed no one wanted to discuss the lines in the book written by Shaw. I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998. IP Logged
 SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 891 Joined: 03/14/08 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #36 - 03/01/14 at 00:55:33 As someone who regularly plays the King's Gambit from both sides of the board nowadays, I think most theoretically critical has to be 2...exf4 3.Nf3 g5 and 3.Bc4 Nc6 intending 4.Nf3 g5, since against 3.Nf3, 3...h6 and 3...d6 narrow down Black's options if White chooses a Quaade/Rosentreter approach with Nc3 and d4 followed by g3, which I currently regard as White's most promising against 2...exf4 3.Nf3 g5.  I no longer trust 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Nc6, however, because of the line 4.d4 g5 5.d5, and have thus abandoned it in favour of 3...g5.I think the Hanstein Gambit approach with Bc4, Nf3, 0-0, d4 and c3 might suffice for dynamic equality in the lines where White plays an early Qa4, and I've had some wild games from the black side where White has instead expanded on the queenside with b4 and a4, though some other sources (including some much stronger players than I) think Black is better.In my opinion the Kieseritzky with 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 is sound but in my opinion is hard to generate winning chances against 5...Qe7 or 5...d6, while if Black wants to play for a win, 5...Nf6 and even 5...Nc6 are good.  The Allgaier (5.Ng5) is tricky but White probably falls a fair way short of full compensation for the knight after 5...h6 or even 5...f3!?.In the tricky Mason Gambit with 3.Nc3, I would advise against the traditional main line with 3...Qh4+ 4.Ke2 d5 and instead suggest 4...Ne7 or 4...Qe7.If Black would rather settle for an equal game, not as wild as the ...g5 lines but still with decent winning chances for both sides, then the best practical choice would be a Modern Defence via 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 (in view of the line 2...exf4 3.Bc4 d5 4.Bxd5, which I think is harder for Black to level the chances against).  Of course you could combine 3.Nf3 d5 with 3.Bc4 Nc6 but then you'd have to be prepared to play the black side of the Hanstein Gambit following 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3. IP Logged
 RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 698 Joined: 05/17/08 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #35 - 02/28/14 at 01:46:18 Seraph wrote on 02/27/14 at 20:41:18:I usually play 1.e4 e52.f4 Nc63.Nf3 f5!?Some of the lines lead to Latvian Gambit positions. Often referred to as the Adelaide and pioneered by the German player Wahls and independently also by Aleks Wohl and the late Tony Miles. It works reasonably well, but is unnecessary if the simple 2. .. exf4 and 3. .. g5 works just as well. I cannot really see how a direct transposition to a Latvian Gambit can possibly be achieved, although some of the ideas for play in the centre can be similar. IP Logged
 Seraph YaBB Newbies Offline You gotta risk it to get the biscuit Posts: 22 Joined: 02/14/14 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #34 - 02/27/14 at 20:41:18 I usually play 1.e4 e52.f4 Nc63.Nf3 f5!?Some of the lines lead to Latvian Gambit positions. IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #33 - 02/26/14 at 20:10:11 Here is one of my correspondence game...white was complete busted in the opening IP Logged
 Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2035 Joined: 10/24/06 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #32 - 12/04/13 at 13:46:50 RdC wrote on 12/04/13 at 01:23:22:Our club's theory hacker  has been taking on the local Kings Gambit "experts" with 2. .. exf4 and 3. .. g5. So far he's making it look like a forced win for Black. What seems to happen in his games is that a critical position will be reached where his opponents have to find an "only" move with everything else losing. In his most recent game he was able to play an idea first tried successfully by Anderssen back in the 1860s .Here's the precedent gameHis opponent tried to improve on White's play with 14. Kf2, sacrificing the exchange. It didn't really work. Is the player perchance a ginger? IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #31 - 12/04/13 at 04:42:38 IP Logged
 RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 698 Joined: 05/17/08 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #30 - 12/04/13 at 01:23:22 Our club's theory hacker  has been taking on the local Kings Gambit "experts" with 2. .. exf4 and 3. .. g5. So far he's making it look like a forced win for Black. What seems to happen in his games is that a critical position will be reached where his opponents have to find an "only" move with everything else losing. In his most recent game he was able to play an idea first tried successfully by Anderssen back in the 1860s .Here's the precedent gameHis opponent tried to improve on White's play with 14. Kf2, sacrificing the exchange. It didn't really work. IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #29 - 12/03/13 at 19:37:56 I think accepting the sac it the best way to refute it ...On bishop gambit giving back the pawn with d5 looks a good idea..If he captures with the pawn..the bishop will no longer attack the f7 square, and if he capture with the B the check of h4 will be dangerous...I think the line is really tricky and it need more and more analysis...So Computer says that Black is probably winning or better IP Logged
 ChevyBanginStyle Full Member Offline 2 \infty & *CRUNCH* Posts: 238 Joined: 01/03/10 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #28 - 12/03/13 at 11:54:17 Plyo wrote on 12/02/13 at 18:39:04:I'm going to say little and here's why:People have been claiming that the KG is unsound for the last 150 years.I wonder how many people did the following:A, checked the creative ideas suggested by the old masters (namely Bronstein).B, went through the "main lines" with Houdini (and a proper computer) to verify the variations.C, looked at the sacrifices for more than just a few moves (meaning, running them through from start to finish).D, going through the process in a way that is similar to reverse engineering. i.e, fixing the moves to plans, thematically, as opposed to trying to be overly aggressive.Here are my conclusions after several months into such work (and still running!):1) The KG is completely 100% sound.2) In most cases the main lines doesn't even deserve to be the fourth side lines and there are far better choices.3) The thematic response (which most people here championed as best) ...g5 is double edged and in most cases NOT to black's advantage.4) The so called Fischer refutation is utter nonsense. I already found 3 different ways where white is clearly better.5) The fact that people consider it unsound is fantastic because I keep winning games in lines they're not familiar with.I have absolutely no intention to reveal what I discovered because so far I'm gaining elo points.What I will say is that with the aid of modern computers and the ease of finding plans I find it mystifying how very few people put in the work and learned why the KG is a great opening.In my opinion, I think that the reason has to do with over aggression. People want to play the KG in order to get some insane attacks and those do happen of course but in the process they will often not play a simple plan that gives white a clear edge due to a better centre, better development and better positional occupations.There are also good lines for black, for sure. I found several.... surprisingly, none of them appear in the databases and therefore, I have no intention of expressing them here.Put in the work people, trust me, it's rewarding and you will not regret it.So my suggestion. Don't play 1...e5.Play 1...Nc6 and if white plays 2.Nf3 then you can play 2...e5 and transpose back to the Ruy. I studied the King's Gambit carefully when I adopted 1..e5. It's rather fun to analyze. And man, I love to face it as Black. Sorry to interrupt your quest for GM norms and international domination, but you have A LOT of theory to overturn before you make a realistic claim that the KG is 100% sound. It's absurd to attack Fischer's article as nonsense, especially given the time it was written. He had a lot of good ideas. The Fischer Defense has a large number of transpositions, so it would be a massive claim to refute the whole complex. A large part of the article covered variations associated with the Bishop's Gambit, which is now close to virtually refuted (for White!). Well at least Fischer gave variations to advance theory. I guess your tip is to shut on Houdini. Thanks, could you give at least one refutation hint to show what an awesome analyst you are?I would agree with a statement that the Queen's Gambit is "100% sound," but I can't fully embrace an unstable opening where soundness is justified by complicated forced draws. You can claim it's a good practical weapon, but that's not what I consider soundness in the opening. You are not the only player in the world to discover the power of Houdini by the way...To claim Black should play 1...Nc6 to avoid the King's Gambit is pretty funny. I've actually thought about 1...Nc6 as a surprise weapon, but the non-2.Nf3 lines are so good for Black after 1...e5, that it doesn't make much practical sense to me. 1...e5 has a lot of scarecrows, but once you confront them, they don't hold up to closer scrutiny so well. Of course, you're no scarecrow and this is completely different from what's happened a thousand times in the past. I guess you are making a smart move not to reveal any analysis in this regard. Good luck! IP Logged
 Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2035 Joined: 10/24/06 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #27 - 12/03/13 at 09:15:37 Plyo wrote on 12/02/13 at 18:39:04:I'm going to say little and here's why:People have been claiming that the KG is unsound for the last 150 years.I wonder how many people did the following:A, checked the creative ideas suggested by the old masters (namely Bronstein).B, went through the "main lines" with Houdini (and a proper computer) to verify the variations.C, looked at the sacrifices for more than just a few moves (meaning, running them through from start to finish).D, going through the process in a way that is similar to reverse engineering. i.e, fixing the moves to plans, thematically, as opposed to trying to be overly aggressive.Here are my conclusions after several months into such work (and still running!):1) The KG is completely 100% sound.2) In most cases the main lines doesn't even deserve to be the fourth side lines and there are far better choices.3) The thematic response (which most people here championed as best) ...g5 is double edged and in most cases NOT to black's advantage.4) The so called Fischer refutation is utter nonsense. I already found 3 different ways where white is clearly better.5) The fact that people consider it unsound is fantastic because I keep winning games in lines they're not familiar with.I have absolutely no intention to reveal what I discovered because so far I'm gaining elo points.What I will say is that with the aid of modern computers and the ease of finding plans I find it mystifying how very few people put in the work and learned why the KG is a great opening.In my opinion, I think that the reason has to do with over aggression. People want to play the KG in order to get some insane attacks and those do happen of course but in the process they will often not play a simple plan that gives white a clear edge due to a better centre, better development and better positional occupations.There are also good lines for black, for sure. I found several.... surprisingly, none of them appear in the databases and therefore, I have no intention of expressing them here.Put in the work people, trust me, it's rewarding and you will not regret it.So my suggestion. Don't play 1...e5.Play 1...Nc6 and if white plays 2.Nf3 then you can play 2...e5 and transpose back to the Ruy. Well, that's longer than any of my posts. IP Logged
 Benoniac Full Member Offline Dont become what you hate Posts: 147 Location: norway Joined: 01/13/11 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #26 - 12/02/13 at 19:35:40 Wow. Thats quite a list, Plyo. And such an anger... Wonder where that fits in with your: Humility before the fact...?Anyway. KG isnt that great if your opponent has, say,  2200+ rating ( and been out there before) . I can think of several GMs  that has given it up along their way... Of course it can be used as a suprise weapon, but not as an attack to depend on for sure. As far as I know, that is. To call what Fischer found "Utter nonsense" is a bit.. well childish, maybe.  I understand you like the KG. Then, why not try it in some corr-games, and then we will talk...?Ben People dont live or die, people just floatB Dylan IP Logged
 Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 2649 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #25 - 12/02/13 at 19:21:28 @Plyo: Interesting. I used to play the KG ages ago (using Gallagher's and McDonald's books) but gave it up and even sold the books, don't remember exactly why.How good a foundation would you say the books by Johansson and Shaw provide? The Gallagher book made the opening look really good, but it's from 1992 and was I guess outdated already when I bought it! Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson IP Logged
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