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 C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? (Read 35459 times)
 Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2864 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #39 - 11/27/14 at 20:51:46 chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 09/16/14 at 20:58:27:I think the simple Nimzowitsch Gambit with c6 as explained in Foxy 119 - Anti-Gambit Guide 1 1.e4 - Martin is good for Black playable, dynamic equality, best player with either colour has wriggle room. IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #38 - 09/16/14 at 20:58:27 I think the simple Nimzowitsch Gambit with c6 as explained in Foxy 119 - Anti-Gambit Guide 1 1.e4 - Martin is good for Black IP Logged
 BladezII Senior Member Offline Member of chesspublishing .com and STC Club Posts: 402 Joined: 11/01/04 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #37 - 03/03/14 at 07:50:32 I am amazed no one wanted to discuss the lines in the book written by Shaw. I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998. IP Logged
 SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 891 Joined: 03/14/08 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #36 - 03/01/14 at 00:55:33 As someone who regularly plays the King's Gambit from both sides of the board nowadays, I think most theoretically critical has to be 2...exf4 3.Nf3 g5 and 3.Bc4 Nc6 intending 4.Nf3 g5, since against 3.Nf3, 3...h6 and 3...d6 narrow down Black's options if White chooses a Quaade/Rosentreter approach with Nc3 and d4 followed by g3, which I currently regard as White's most promising against 2...exf4 3.Nf3 g5.  I no longer trust 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Nc6, however, because of the line 4.d4 g5 5.d5, and have thus abandoned it in favour of 3...g5.I think the Hanstein Gambit approach with Bc4, Nf3, 0-0, d4 and c3 might suffice for dynamic equality in the lines where White plays an early Qa4, and I've had some wild games from the black side where White has instead expanded on the queenside with b4 and a4, though some other sources (including some much stronger players than I) think Black is better.In my opinion the Kieseritzky with 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 is sound but in my opinion is hard to generate winning chances against 5...Qe7 or 5...d6, while if Black wants to play for a win, 5...Nf6 and even 5...Nc6 are good.  The Allgaier (5.Ng5) is tricky but White probably falls a fair way short of full compensation for the knight after 5...h6 or even 5...f3!?.In the tricky Mason Gambit with 3.Nc3, I would advise against the traditional main line with 3...Qh4+ 4.Ke2 d5 and instead suggest 4...Ne7 or 4...Qe7.If Black would rather settle for an equal game, not as wild as the ...g5 lines but still with decent winning chances for both sides, then the best practical choice would be a Modern Defence via 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 (in view of the line 2...exf4 3.Bc4 d5 4.Bxd5, which I think is harder for Black to level the chances against).  Of course you could combine 3.Nf3 d5 with 3.Bc4 Nc6 but then you'd have to be prepared to play the black side of the Hanstein Gambit following 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3. IP Logged
 RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 732 Joined: 05/17/08 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #35 - 02/28/14 at 01:46:18 Seraph wrote on 02/27/14 at 20:41:18:I usually play 1.e4 e52.f4 Nc63.Nf3 f5!?Some of the lines lead to Latvian Gambit positions. Often referred to as the Adelaide and pioneered by the German player Wahls and independently also by Aleks Wohl and the late Tony Miles. It works reasonably well, but is unnecessary if the simple 2. .. exf4 and 3. .. g5 works just as well. I cannot really see how a direct transposition to a Latvian Gambit can possibly be achieved, although some of the ideas for play in the centre can be similar. IP Logged
 Seraph YaBB Newbies Offline You gotta risk it to get the biscuit Posts: 22 Joined: 02/14/14 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #34 - 02/27/14 at 20:41:18 I usually play 1.e4 e52.f4 Nc63.Nf3 f5!?Some of the lines lead to Latvian Gambit positions. IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #33 - 02/26/14 at 20:10:11 Here is one of my correspondence game...white was complete busted in the opening IP Logged
 Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2055 Joined: 10/24/06 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #32 - 12/04/13 at 13:46:50 RdC wrote on 12/04/13 at 01:23:22:Our club's theory hacker  has been taking on the local Kings Gambit "experts" with 2. .. exf4 and 3. .. g5. So far he's making it look like a forced win for Black. What seems to happen in his games is that a critical position will be reached where his opponents have to find an "only" move with everything else losing. In his most recent game he was able to play an idea first tried successfully by Anderssen back in the 1860s .Here's the precedent gameHis opponent tried to improve on White's play with 14. Kf2, sacrificing the exchange. It didn't really work. Is the player perchance a ginger? IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #31 - 12/04/13 at 04:42:38 IP Logged
 RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 732 Joined: 05/17/08 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #30 - 12/04/13 at 01:23:22 Our club's theory hacker  has been taking on the local Kings Gambit "experts" with 2. .. exf4 and 3. .. g5. So far he's making it look like a forced win for Black. What seems to happen in his games is that a critical position will be reached where his opponents have to find an "only" move with everything else losing. In his most recent game he was able to play an idea first tried successfully by Anderssen back in the 1860s .Here's the precedent gameHis opponent tried to improve on White's play with 14. Kf2, sacrificing the exchange. It didn't really work. IP Logged
 chandrashekharkoravi Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 155 Joined: 08/13/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #29 - 12/03/13 at 19:37:56 I think accepting the sac it the best way to refute it ...On bishop gambit giving back the pawn with d5 looks a good idea..If he captures with the pawn..the bishop will no longer attack the f7 square, and if he capture with the B the check of h4 will be dangerous...I think the line is really tricky and it need more and more analysis...So Computer says that Black is probably winning or better IP Logged
 ChevyBanginStyle Full Member Offline 2 \infty & *CRUNCH* Posts: 238 Joined: 01/03/10 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #28 - 12/03/13 at 11:54:17 Plyo wrote on 12/02/13 at 18:39:04:I'm going to say little and here's why:People have been claiming that the KG is unsound for the last 150 years.I wonder how many people did the following:A, checked the creative ideas suggested by the old masters (namely Bronstein).B, went through the "main lines" with Houdini (and a proper computer) to verify the variations.C, looked at the sacrifices for more than just a few moves (meaning, running them through from start to finish).D, going through the process in a way that is similar to reverse engineering. i.e, fixing the moves to plans, thematically, as opposed to trying to be overly aggressive.Here are my conclusions after several months into such work (and still running!):1) The KG is completely 100% sound.2) In most cases the main lines doesn't even deserve to be the fourth side lines and there are far better choices.3) The thematic response (which most people here championed as best) ...g5 is double edged and in most cases NOT to black's advantage.4) The so called Fischer refutation is utter nonsense. I already found 3 different ways where white is clearly better.5) The fact that people consider it unsound is fantastic because I keep winning games in lines they're not familiar with.I have absolutely no intention to reveal what I discovered because so far I'm gaining elo points.What I will say is that with the aid of modern computers and the ease of finding plans I find it mystifying how very few people put in the work and learned why the KG is a great opening.In my opinion, I think that the reason has to do with over aggression. People want to play the KG in order to get some insane attacks and those do happen of course but in the process they will often not play a simple plan that gives white a clear edge due to a better centre, better development and better positional occupations.There are also good lines for black, for sure. I found several.... surprisingly, none of them appear in the databases and therefore, I have no intention of expressing them here.Put in the work people, trust me, it's rewarding and you will not regret it.So my suggestion. Don't play 1...e5.Play 1...Nc6 and if white plays 2.Nf3 then you can play 2...e5 and transpose back to the Ruy. I studied the King's Gambit carefully when I adopted 1..e5. It's rather fun to analyze. And man, I love to face it as Black. Sorry to interrupt your quest for GM norms and international domination, but you have A LOT of theory to overturn before you make a realistic claim that the KG is 100% sound. It's absurd to attack Fischer's article as nonsense, especially given the time it was written. He had a lot of good ideas. The Fischer Defense has a large number of transpositions, so it would be a massive claim to refute the whole complex. A large part of the article covered variations associated with the Bishop's Gambit, which is now close to virtually refuted (for White!). Well at least Fischer gave variations to advance theory. I guess your tip is to shut on Houdini. Thanks, could you give at least one refutation hint to show what an awesome analyst you are?I would agree with a statement that the Queen's Gambit is "100% sound," but I can't fully embrace an unstable opening where soundness is justified by complicated forced draws. You can claim it's a good practical weapon, but that's not what I consider soundness in the opening. You are not the only player in the world to discover the power of Houdini by the way...To claim Black should play 1...Nc6 to avoid the King's Gambit is pretty funny. I've actually thought about 1...Nc6 as a surprise weapon, but the non-2.Nf3 lines are so good for Black after 1...e5, that it doesn't make much practical sense to me. 1...e5 has a lot of scarecrows, but once you confront them, they don't hold up to closer scrutiny so well. Of course, you're no scarecrow and this is completely different from what's happened a thousand times in the past. I guess you are making a smart move not to reveal any analysis in this regard. Good luck! IP Logged
 Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2055 Joined: 10/24/06 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #27 - 12/03/13 at 09:15:37 Plyo wrote on 12/02/13 at 18:39:04:I'm going to say little and here's why:People have been claiming that the KG is unsound for the last 150 years.I wonder how many people did the following:A, checked the creative ideas suggested by the old masters (namely Bronstein).B, went through the "main lines" with Houdini (and a proper computer) to verify the variations.C, looked at the sacrifices for more than just a few moves (meaning, running them through from start to finish).D, going through the process in a way that is similar to reverse engineering. i.e, fixing the moves to plans, thematically, as opposed to trying to be overly aggressive.Here are my conclusions after several months into such work (and still running!):1) The KG is completely 100% sound.2) In most cases the main lines doesn't even deserve to be the fourth side lines and there are far better choices.3) The thematic response (which most people here championed as best) ...g5 is double edged and in most cases NOT to black's advantage.4) The so called Fischer refutation is utter nonsense. I already found 3 different ways where white is clearly better.5) The fact that people consider it unsound is fantastic because I keep winning games in lines they're not familiar with.I have absolutely no intention to reveal what I discovered because so far I'm gaining elo points.What I will say is that with the aid of modern computers and the ease of finding plans I find it mystifying how very few people put in the work and learned why the KG is a great opening.In my opinion, I think that the reason has to do with over aggression. People want to play the KG in order to get some insane attacks and those do happen of course but in the process they will often not play a simple plan that gives white a clear edge due to a better centre, better development and better positional occupations.There are also good lines for black, for sure. I found several.... surprisingly, none of them appear in the databases and therefore, I have no intention of expressing them here.Put in the work people, trust me, it's rewarding and you will not regret it.So my suggestion. Don't play 1...e5.Play 1...Nc6 and if white plays 2.Nf3 then you can play 2...e5 and transpose back to the Ruy. Well, that's longer than any of my posts. IP Logged
 Benoniac Full Member Offline Dont become what you hate Posts: 147 Location: norway Joined: 01/13/11 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #26 - 12/02/13 at 19:35:40 Wow. Thats quite a list, Plyo. And such an anger... Wonder where that fits in with your: Humility before the fact...?Anyway. KG isnt that great if your opponent has, say,  2200+ rating ( and been out there before) . I can think of several GMs  that has given it up along their way... Of course it can be used as a suprise weapon, but not as an attack to depend on for sure. As far as I know, that is. To call what Fischer found "Utter nonsense" is a bit.. well childish, maybe.  I understand you like the KG. Then, why not try it in some corr-games, and then we will talk...?Ben People dont live or die, people just floatB Dylan IP Logged
 Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 2724 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #25 - 12/02/13 at 19:21:28 @Plyo: Interesting. I used to play the KG ages ago (using Gallagher's and McDonald's books) but gave it up and even sold the books, don't remember exactly why.How good a foundation would you say the books by Johansson and Shaw provide? The Gallagher book made the opening look really good, but it's from 1992 and was I guess outdated already when I bought it! Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson IP Logged
 Plyo YaBB Newbies Offline Humility before the fact. Posts: 20 Joined: 05/12/13 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #24 - 12/02/13 at 18:39:04 I'm going to say little and here's why:People have been claiming that the KG is unsound for the last 150 years.I wonder how many people did the following:A, checked the creative ideas suggested by the old masters (namely Bronstein).B, went through the "main lines" with Houdini (and a proper computer) to verify the variations.C, looked at the sacrifices for more than just a few moves (meaning, running them through from start to finish).D, going through the process in a way that is similar to reverse engineering. i.e, fixing the moves to plans, thematically, as opposed to trying to be overly aggressive.Here are my conclusions after several months into such work (and still running!):1) The KG is completely 100% sound.2) In most cases the main lines doesn't even deserve to be the fourth side lines and there are far better choices.3) The thematic response (which most people here championed as best) ...g5 is double edged and in most cases NOT to black's advantage.4) The so called Fischer refutation is utter nonsense. I already found 3 different ways where white is clearly better.5) The fact that people consider it unsound is fantastic because I keep winning games in lines they're not familiar with.I have absolutely no intention to reveal what I discovered because so far I'm gaining elo points.What I will say is that with the aid of modern computers and the ease of finding plans I find it mystifying how very few people put in the work and learned why the KG is a great opening.In my opinion, I think that the reason has to do with over aggression. People want to play the KG in order to get some insane attacks and those do happen of course but in the process they will often not play a simple plan that gives white a clear edge due to a better centre, better development and better positional occupations.There are also good lines for black, for sure. I found several.... surprisingly, none of them appear in the databases and therefore, I have no intention of expressing them here.Put in the work people, trust me, it's rewarding and you will not regret it.So my suggestion. Don't play 1...e5.Play 1...Nc6 and if white plays 2.Nf3 then you can play 2...e5 and transpose back to the Ruy. IP Logged
 RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 732 Joined: 05/17/08 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #23 - 11/29/13 at 10:25:01 flaviddude wrote on 11/29/13 at 01:09:37:Against Bishops gambit. 1.e4 e5 2. f4 exf 3. Bc4 Nc6 is best.        One key idea is that a move or two later, you are liable to reach a position where pawns on e4 and d4 face Knights on f6 and c6. Whilst it's possible to advance the pawns, the Bishop on c4 is little vulnerable, as after d4-d5, you have N c6-e5 hitting the Bishop whilst on e4-e5 you have d7-d5. If the Bishop moves you can follow with Nf6-e4. As suggested, Black may not need yet another decent defence to the Kings Knights Gambit, but the Adelaide move order has its points. (1. e4 e5 2. f4 Nc6 3. Nf3 f5). If 3 Bc4 then 3. .. exf4 transposing to the Kings Bishops Gambit in the line being discussed. It's been noted that the Shaw book is limited in its coverage of the Adelaide, but the New in Chess Yearbooks have covered it. There's no sign yet of anything that might refute it. IP Logged
 flaviddude Senior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 329 Location: Australia Joined: 01/12/04 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #22 - 11/29/13 at 01:09:37 I have been playing King's Gambit for over fifty years especially in correspondence. Against Bishops gambit. 1.e4 e5 2. f4 exf 3. Bc4 Nc6 is best. I played the line against a 2300 ICCF  rated player and white had to fight for a draw. Shaw has found a better line for black than I played.Against Knight's gambit.  You pay your money and you take your choice.There are two ways to play against the Kieseritzy which kill the game in its tracks. So if a draw is a great result for white then play straight down the line. If black does not take the early draws then play gets really treacherous for both players.The modern defence is best approached by the move order.1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd exf which curtails whites options. Shaw deals very well with this line. As white you only need to know the Bb5 lines but as black you need to know them all. White players be warned. One slip and black will be all over you like a rash. I am talking from experience. I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit IP Logged
 GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Offline Mr Dynamic? Posts: 2936 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #21 - 11/07/13 at 12:36:52 GabrielGale wrote on 11/06/13 at 08:26:48:But what I found interesting was that she does not mention John Shaw's "refutation of 3 Bc4 which is 3…Nc6 but only mentions 3…Nf6 (her main move) and 3…Qh4+.Does this mean that a Black player would not play 3…Nc6? Is there anything wrong with it? I remember using Micawber's KG Forum eBook to prepare this as Black last year, and won easily (vs a strong GM). I can see nothing wrong with it. IP Logged
 GabrielGale Senior Member Offline Who was Thursday? Posts: 466 Location: Sydney Joined: 02/28/08 Gender: Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #20 - 11/07/13 at 01:03:26 That is a pity. I would like to have another opinion albeit from someone less than a GM level on the 3…Nc6 line form a practical OTB p.o.v.I borrowed the tome from a friend and I am very impressed. John Shaw did a very good job. Even though there isn't a chapter on the strategical ideas, he has this critical positions almost picture perfect for a learner to stop and analyse. I intend to write a lengthier review from a perspective of <1800 player once I have gone through the book at a greater depth. http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/) IP Logged
 ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2346 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05 Re: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #19 - 11/06/13 at 19:46:23 It most likely means that Abby Marshall didn't do a very good job of covering the line. IP Logged
 GabrielGale Senior Member Offline Who was Thursday? Posts: 466 Location: Sydney Joined: 02/28/08 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #18 - 11/06/13 at 08:26:48 Not sure where to put this and did not wish to start a new thread, hence decided to tag it here.Over at ChessCafe, Abby Marshall has written about the King's Bishop Gambit in her latest monthly column http://www.chesscafe.com/abby/abby50.htm. She cites Thomas Johansson's TFKG as well as John Shaw's mammoth KG.But what I found interesting was that she does not mention John Shaw's "refutation of 3 Bc4 which is 3…Nc6 but only mentions 3…Nf6 (her main move) and 3…Qh4+.Does this mean that a Black player would not play 3…Nc6? Is there anything wrong with it? http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/) IP Logged
 Jonathan Tait Senior Member Offline Posts: 429 Location: Nottingham Joined: 07/11/06 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #17 - 09/30/13 at 08:08:39 Bibs wrote on 09/26/13 at 12:17:27:Yes, agree it was a rubbish comment. Okay, all reputable defences. I took that as given. If you really need things spelt out perhaps chess isn't the game for you. blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/ IP Logged
 LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1330 Joined: 10/22/05 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #16 - 09/29/13 at 04:50:36 ghenghisclown wrote on 09/28/13 at 10:38:39:LeeRoth wrote on 12/05/09 at 18:32:45: The Nimzovich Counter Gambit is good for blitz.      This makes it seem like there's something wrong with it for classical time controls. Like what? Good for blitz because there are some tricks.  But with proper play, I think White gets an edge.1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 c6 4.Nc3 exf4 5.Nf3 Bd6 6.d4 Ne7 7.dxc6 Nbxc6 8.Bc4 O-O 9.O-O Bg4 10.Ne4 Bc7 11.c3 Ng6 12.Nf2 Bf5 13.Bd3 +/= It's not so bad for Black, but if Black can get equality or even  =/+ in the main lines, why not play those? « Last Edit: 09/29/13 at 14:15:24 by LeeRoth » IP Logged
 SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 891 Joined: 03/14/08 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #15 - 09/28/13 at 14:27:09 I've been looking at that 3...Ne7 line in preparation for uploading another series of articles on the King's Gambit for my chess openings site.  Of course Martin Breutigam is a stronger player than I, but I think his assessments that White is the one fighting for equality are a little optimistic.  I considered 4.d4 d5 (An alternative way for Black to play this line is 4...Ng6!?, e.g. 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nc3 c6 8.Bb3 with full compensation for the pawn) 5.Nc3 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Nd5 (also given by Breutigam, with the assessment that White is fighting for equality) 7.Bd3 Be7 8.0-0 (8.c4 can lead to complications after 8...Ne3 9.Qe2 f5 10.Nc3 0-0) 8...0-0 9.Nc3 Ne3 (9...Nc6 is a sensible alternative, also leading to equal chances) 10.Bxe3 fxe3 11.Qe2, Short-Giri, Amsterdam 2010.4.Nc3 is also playable but 4...d5 5.d4 dxe4 transposes to the previous line.I didn't consider 4.Bc4 in my analysis but as Breutigam pointed out, it is likely to transpose to a main line of the Modern Defence.  Following 4...d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.0-0, I agree with him that 6...Be6! 7.Bb3 c5 (Nakamura-Adams, London 2011) currently looks like the most critical test, but I feel that instead of 8.Kh1 or 8.d4 (both of which indeed leave White struggling to reach equality) 8.c4 and 8.d3 are superior alternatives.Nonetheless I have to conclude that 3...Ne7 is objectively about as good as the Modern Defence and that Black should achieve dynamically equal play against all White responses. IP Logged
 TN God Member Offline Posts: 3396 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #14 - 09/28/13 at 11:05:11 Today on ChessBase an article on the 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Ne7 system was made freely available: http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211/PostId/4011328/chessbase-magazine-156--d.... I haven't checked the analysis but it does seem a reasonable way to reach favourable lines of 3...d5 and avoid others. Of course White can play 4.d4 but it doesn't seem that scary to me. Presumably Shaw covers this line in more detail. All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them. IP Logged
 ghenghisclown God Member Offline Pedicare Vestri Latin Posts: 1020 Location: HollyWeird Joined: 07/19/06 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #13 - 09/28/13 at 10:38:39 LeeRoth wrote on 12/05/09 at 18:32:45: The Nimzovich Counter Gambit is good for blitz.      This makes it seem like there's something wrong with it for classical time controls. Like what? "Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it." IP Logged
 Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2055 Joined: 10/24/06 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #12 - 09/26/13 at 12:17:27 JEH wrote on 09/26/13 at 10:19:55:Jonathan Tait wrote on 09/26/13 at 08:18:56:All lines against the King's Gambit are good. One refutation you don't see in the books is 1. e4 e5 2. f4 g5!!After the mainline tries 3. Nf3, 3. Nc3 or 3. Bc4, black simply plays 3. ...gf! rather than losing central control with ef. Any other White moves such as time wasting pawn or Queen moves wouldn't meet the classical needs of the position. Pretty much a refutation. It's been engine checked with Houdini which gave it a big number in it's evaluation  Yes, agree it was a rubbish comment. IP Logged
 JEH God Member Offline "Football is like Chess, only without the dice." Posts: 1430 Location: Reading Joined: 09/22/05 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #11 - 09/26/13 at 10:19:55 Jonathan Tait wrote on 09/26/13 at 08:18:56:All lines against the King's Gambit are good. One refutation you don't see in the books is 1. e4 e5 2. f4 g5!!After the mainline tries 3. Nf3, 3. Nc3 or 3. Bc4, black simply plays 3. ...gf! rather than losing central control with ef. Any other White moves such as time wasting pawn or Queen moves wouldn't meet the classical needs of the position. Pretty much a refutation. It's been engine checked with Houdini which gave it a big number in it's evaluation Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientationsClowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you IP Logged
 Jonathan Tait Senior Member Offline Posts: 429 Location: Nottingham Joined: 07/11/06 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #10 - 09/26/13 at 08:18:56 Reverse wrote on 12/04/09 at 13:29:06:what is the best line for black against the King's gambit? All lines against the King's Gambit are good. Rather than trying to learn the "best" one, go for the one you like the look of, that leads to the type of positions you like to play. And then make that your pet line.Personally, I play 2...exf4 3 Nf3 h5!?.Reverse wrote on 12/04/09 at 13:29:06:On a side note I beat my first master a couple years ago in the following manner, I was black. 1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Bc4 f5!?! Yes, I've played this as Black. It's fine. blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/ IP Logged
 ANDREW BRETT God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 622 Joined: 07/07/06 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #9 - 12/09/09 at 09:20:33 If you want to consider something slightly different it's worth looking at 3..ne7 as played by Sokolov, Howell, Adams etc. Leko played Fischer's defence (3..d6)3..h6  played by Nunn and SvidlerKarpov 2...d5 transposing into the modern line.3...g5 - Shirov and Ivanchuk's choice which I think must be a strong option, although the allgaier line is tricky to defend in practice IP Logged
 LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1330 Joined: 10/22/05 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #8 - 12/05/09 at 18:32:45 I agree with most of what's been posted.  3..g5 must be best, but 3..d5 is more practical.  The Nimzovich Counter Gambit is good for blitz.  Markovich's 5.Bc4 transposes to a line of the Bishop's Gambit, when 8..Nf6 might be better than 8..Bg4. IP Logged
 MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10199 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #7 - 12/04/09 at 20:51:09 Like a few other: best are3.Nf3 g53.Bc4 Nc6 intending 4.Nf3 g5. The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.GC Lichtenberg IP Logged
 SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 891 Joined: 03/14/08 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #6 - 12/04/09 at 15:13:45 Yes, the Falkbeer is slightly inferior in all lines- White should get some advantage against both 3...c6 and 3...e4.The line 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 is almost certain to lead to a Hanstein Gambit, where Black is comfortable.  Just be careful not to be tempted into going ...g4 unless prompted with h2-h4, as the Muzio Gambit and related lines are dangerous for Black.  Black gets a pawn chain h6-g5-f4.I agree that the objectively best response to 3.Nf3 is 3...g5 but that 3...d5 (or 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4) is perfectly adequate for Black.  But after 3...g5 you have to watch for the Rosentreter Gambit (4.d4), the Hanstein (4.Bc4, when 4...Nc6 transposes to the line in para 1) and the Kieseritzky with 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 (or the Allgaier, 5.Ng5).  In the Kieseritzky, 5...Nf6 is the best response, but play gets quite complex after 6.Bc4! d5 7.exd5 and either 7...Bd6 or 7...Bg7.I have discussed my own pet response, 3...Nc6, which often tricks White into the Hanstein but is probably not as theoretically testing because 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ne5 transposes to the 5...Nc6 line of the Kieseritzky (instead 5...Nf6 is more critical) and 4.Nc3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 is better than the standard Allgaier.  However I'm not sure how 3...d6 (also intending 4...g5) is currently faring.  I remember White was having a few problems in the line 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1. IP Logged
 Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #5 - 12/04/09 at 14:22:01 Reverse wrote on 12/04/09 at 14:17:26:What about the Falkbeer Counter Gambit? I just spoke to a friend who said he recalled one of his opponents- some guy rated 2350+ Fide- playing it against him. He said the line went1e4 e5 2f4 d5 3.exd5 c6 4 Nc3 He couldn't really remember the game since it was played in the  late 90's or so. I am not sure about this c6 move, looks a little suspicious. I would shun this.  After 4...exf4, which I believe is the principal move, White should play 5.Bc4! when 5...Qh4+ 6.Kf1 f3 7.d3 fxg2+ 8.Kxg2 Bg4 9.Qd2! is significantly better for White, notwithstanding the airy situation of his king. The Great Oz has spoken! IP Logged
 TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1704 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #4 - 12/04/09 at 14:21:24 That's the Nimzowitsch Counter-Gambit, and I think 4. Nc3 is the best move, if I remember correctly. I'd also disagree that the Falkbeer is the best way to play for Black, since 1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. ed e4 4. d3! is probably somewhere around +=/=, and has been for a long time. IP Logged
 Reverse Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 212 Location: USA Joined: 11/11/09 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #3 - 12/04/09 at 14:17:26 What about the Falkbeer Counter Gambit? I just spoke to a friend who said he recalled one of his opponents- some guy rated 2350+ Fide- playing it against him. He said the line went1e4 e5 2f4 d5 3.exd5 c6 4 Nc3 He couldn't really remember the game since it was played in the  late 90's or so. I am not sure about this c6 move, looks a little suspicious. IP Logged
 TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1704 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender: Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #2 - 12/04/09 at 14:05:04 Definitely 3...g5 is the best move, but like Markovich said, it would also require the most work and memory, as well as tactical acumen in my opinion.Wasn't there a large e-book or PGN file created by members of this forum on the King's Gambit not too long ago? Does that still exist somewhere? IP Logged
 Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04 Re: King's Gambit: Best line for black? Reply #1 - 12/04/09 at 14:01:17 Reverse wrote on 12/04/09 at 13:29:06:Hey Guys,what is the best line for black against the King's gambit?I assume taking the pawn must be the start. I looked at the declined and seems to have a pleasant game.1e4 e5 2f4 exf4 3.Nf3 and 3Bc4 ?what should black play. I started this topic because the other topic below dealt with black wanting to play something that has little theory. On a side note I beat my first master a couple years ago in the following manner, I was black. 1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Bc4 f5!?! 4 e5 Qh4+ 5 Kf1 f3 6 d4 fxg2+ 7 Kxg2. Anyway, I am not so sure about this f5 stuff. There are several fully adequate defenses.However, there is no doubt that the theoretically best reply to the Knight's Gambit is 3...g5.  White has all he can do to demonstrate equality.  But you have to know your stuff very well, and depending on how often you face the KG and how easy it is for you to recall the details of your preparations, employing this may not be practical.  Personally, I play the Modern Defense to the Knight's Gambit, which is very straightforward and still offers Black winning chances.Against the Bishop's Gambit, there is a broad consensus that Bogoliubov's defense, 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 c6, is best.  However my personal opinion is that 3...Nc6 is much more difficult for Black to deal with, since 4.d4, formerly supposed to be good, more or less fails to 4...Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb3 Bg4.  Best for White is to transpose into a Knight's Gambit with 4.Nf3, when Black plays 3...g5.  But for this reason, playing 3...Nc6 against the Bishop's Gambit presupposes Black's willingness to play 3...g5 against the Knight's Gambit, or at least to play closely related positions.  Personally, I play Bogoliubov's defense. The Great Oz has spoken! IP Logged
 Reverse Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 212 Location: USA Joined: 11/11/09 Gender: C30-C39: King's Gambit: Best line for black? 12/04/09 at 13:29:06 Hey Guys,what is the best line for black against the King's gambit?I assume taking the pawn must be the start. I looked at the declined and seems to have a pleasant game.1e4 e5 2f4 exf4 3.Nf3 and 3Bc4 ?what should black play. I started this topic because the other topic below dealt with black wanting to play something that has little theory. On a side note I beat my first master a couple years ago in the following manner, I was black. 1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Bc4 f5!?! 4 e5 Qh4+ 5 Kf1 f3 6 d4 fxg2+ 7 Kxg2. Anyway, I am not so sure about this f5 stuff. « Last Edit: 11/06/13 at 09:38:06 by Smyslov_Fan » IP Logged
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