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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W? (Read 7105 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #21 - 03/23/17 at 20:47:34
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Hey.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Qh4 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Nb5 Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 Kd8 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Bg5
Looks absolutely prospectless for black imo and could well be the most practical line.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #20 - 03/23/17 at 13:23:17
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mn wrote on 03/17/17 at 03:23:22:
After 10...Nxd4, he gives one line: 11 cxd4 Re8 12 Bf3 Qf5 13 c4 d6 14 Re1, with some comment about White being better without needing to memorize only-moves.


Okay, thanks. It is an interesting idea, basically saying to Black: your position is so crap I can virtually give you a extra tempo on 9...a6 lines. Smiley
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #19 - 03/17/17 at 03:23:22
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After 10...Nxd4, he gives one line: 11 cxd4 Re8 12 Bf3 Qf5 13 c4 d6 14 Re1, with some comment about White being better without needing to memorize only-moves.
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #18 - 03/16/17 at 07:34:53
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mn wrote on 03/15/17 at 16:40:55:
Shaw gives 10 Nd4, arguing White is better without needing to know any forced lines.


Compensation certainly; "better" is a bold claim though without concrete lines, given that Black is a pawn up. What does he suggest after 10...Nxd4 11 cxd4 d6 or 11...Re8 - ?
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #17 - 03/15/17 at 16:40:55
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Shaw gives 10 Nd4, arguing White is better without needing to know any forced lines.
  
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Re: Refutation of 4...Qh4 Scotch
Reply #16 - 03/15/17 at 15:17:03
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TN wrote on 12/22/09 at 10:43:28:
Schroeder wrote on 12/22/09 at 05:56:42:
TN wrote on 12/10/09 at 14:29:12:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4 4.Nd4 Qh4 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qe4 7.Ndb5 Bc3 8.bc3 Kd8 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Be3 and Black is under heavy pressure although White has to play accurately to keep his advantage.


In the line given by TN, 11.-d6 is Black's best answer. Then White has compensation for the pawn, but not more than that. The position should be labelled as unclear. In the 15 games in my database, the results favour Black who scored 57%.


11...d6 12.Rb1 Re7 13.Bf3 Qc4 14.Nd6! +/- gives White a massive attack


Black may be able to defend after 14...cxd6 15 Qxd6+ Bd7!; e.g.
a) 16 Bg5 Rc8 17 Bxf6 gxf6 18 Qxf6 Qc5 19 Rxb7 Qd6 20 Rxe7 (or 20 Qh8+ Re8 21 Rxe8+ Bxe8 unclear) 20...Qxe7 21 Qh8+ Qe8 22 Qf6+ Qe7 =
b) 16 Bxc6 Qxc6 17 Bb6+ axb6 18 Qxe7+ Kc7 19 Qxf7 Qd5 20 Re7 Qxf7 21 Rxf7 Kc6 22 Rxg7 Rxa2 unclear (B.Hjort-R.Zajontz, correspondence 1999)
c) 16 Rxb7 Qxc3 17 Rd1 (A.Niknaddaf-M.Asbahi, Urumia 2008) 17...Rc8 unclear.
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #15 - 03/04/10 at 14:00:53
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Well said; 'and an improvement' are, I think, the operative words! Having foolishly found myself in this the other day by transposition (in a 4 ...Bb4 5 Nc3 Scotch I played ...Qe7 and daftly took the hot e-pawn) I'd say, steer very clear!
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #14 - 03/04/10 at 13:17:11
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HoemberChess wrote on 03/03/10 at 22:20:28:
Hi to all,
A friend has just asked me to try and find something for him that would be of help in preparation for the weekend team match. (4..Qh4 with Black)
Any study in CBM or book etc?


A well-booked White will have Barsky's excellent book by now, which treats this extensively and claims significant advantage for White.  So under no circumstances would I undertake 4...Qh4 against a Scotch specialist unless I had both Barsky's book and an improvement on his analysis in my hot little hand.
  

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HoemberChess
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #13 - 03/03/10 at 22:20:28
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Hi to all,
A friend has just asked me to try and find something for him that would be of help in preparation for the weekend team match. (4..Qh4 with Black)
Any study in CBM or book etc?
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #12 - 01/10/10 at 15:00:07
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HTH, you make some very good points.

I have to say, though, that it 'might' be the fault of ...Qh4 if it leads to positions you aren't comfortable playing...

Anyways, though, for awhile I've tried to play ...Q-R5!?, since I utterly detest playing against 1. P-K4 P-K4 2. P-Q4 as Black, and as I like playing the Danish Gambit as White and don't want to have to defend it as Black, I play ...Kt-QB3 and end up in a Scotch... and I don't really like the 'mainline' Scotch. It's funny for a gambiteer like me to dabble in such a 'materialistic' line, so I think the only reason I thought of ...Q-R5!? was because it looked 'interesting'.

Needless to say, most of my opponents mercifully play 2. Kt-KB3, so I can get into my favourite Latvian Gambit lines! LOL...

But yeah, Q-R5!? is probably unsound, but possibly playable, like a lot of what I play!

Greco
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #11 - 12/24/09 at 04:57:27
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MemoryMaster wrote on 12/09/09 at 15:22:51:
The Question is pretty much in the title. Im curious if this variation is playable as a main defence?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Qh4

How does the variation(s) go that is in whites favour?

I am so often taken a back how such questions meet with the same reaction. All over the various areas of this forum a person dears to ask...”Is defence Y or attack Z alright as black or white?”. This sort of question normally elicits the same response. People run off to their libraries and or databases and with some rather false confidence and pride reproduce the rhetoric as exposed by Grandmaster Fred or Bob. The one question that does seem to escape everyone in this case is to ask, what level of chess are you playing to? Are you some FIDE master or Grandmaster so disparately down on your luck and fortune that you need to ask a forum of chess troglodytes for an opinion on whether Qh4 in the Scotch is playable or are you an ordinary chess playing plebe where the chances of anyone you face knowing any of the spouted refutations given by said chess troglodytes is slim to absolutely bugger all ? It is just not as simple as asking if defence X or Y works or not, chess openings are only as good as the person you play them against….If you are one of the ordinary chess playing plebes trying Qh4 against a good player and the said player does not know any of the refutations, as far as the opening is concerned your chances are equal. However I guess if you get pass the opening and lose your way in the middle game and endgame then that can’t be the fault of Qh4….Can it  Undecided
HTH
Angry
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #10 - 12/23/09 at 22:45:34
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Gutman only investigates 10...a6.
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #9 - 12/23/09 at 21:31:25
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@Markovich

The variations I gave are just a starting point - my intuition tells me that White should be clearly better but my analysis suggests that White can only achieve a slight advantage. In the position after 15.Qa3, I think the computer underestimates White's initiative, but as I can't find a win for White, it's fair to say that White is only somewhat better.

As you stated earlier, even if Black holds with best play, the position is quite difficult for Black in practice and it is relatively easy for White to develop his initiative.

I don't have Gutman's book on this line so it will be interesting to see what he recommends against my suggestions and what his opinion is of this variation.

  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #8 - 12/22/09 at 17:29:23
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Fine, but += does not constitute a refutation.  From your words though it sounds like something more.
  

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TN
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Re: Refutation of 4...Qh4 Scotch
Reply #7 - 12/22/09 at 10:43:28
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Schroeder wrote on 12/22/09 at 05:56:42:
TN wrote on 12/10/09 at 14:29:12:
I agree that 4...Qh4 is objectively dubious although it can work well against an unprepared opponent.

I believe the 'refutation' is as follows:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4 4.Nd4 Qh4 5.Nc3 Bb4 (5...Bc5 6.Be3 is very nice for White) 6.Be2 Qe4 (6...Nf6 7.0-0 Bc3 8.Nf5! Qe4 9.Bd3 Qa4 10.bc3 and Black has to play 10...Kf8! to not lose immediately, although this is still clearly better for White) 7.Ndb5 Bc3 (7...Qg2 8.Bf3) 8.bc3 Kd8 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Be3 and Black is under heavy pressure although White has to play accurately to keep his advantage. Note that 11...a6 fails to 12.Nd6! cd6 13.Bb6 Ke7 14.Bf3.


In the line given by TN, 11.-d6 is Black's best answer. Then White has compensation for the pawn, but not more than that. The position should be labelled as unclear. In the 15 games in my database, the results favour Black who scored 57%.


11...d6 12.Rb1 (12.c4!? Bg4 13.Rb1 += is also promising) 12...Qd5!?N (12...Bd7 13.c4 Ne5 14.c5 Bc6 15.Bf1 +/- is very strong; 12...Re7 13.Bf3 Qc4 14.Nd6! +/- gives White a massive attack) 13.Qc1 a6 14.c4 Qe5 15.Qa3 +=, due to Black's vulnerable king and White's significant lead in development.
  

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