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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W? (Read 8537 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #27 - 06/16/17 at 19:44:42
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Hi.

Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/16/17 at 11:48:41:
Nice analysis. Just one query: in the 17...Kc8 line, what happens after 22...Rxh6 - ?

23.Ne3 planning to take on a8 (or the queen Grin) and then pretend you have the significantly more coordinated position.

Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/16/17 at 11:48:41:
You're not a used car salesman by any chance, are you? Smiley

Nope. The most I've sold is 30-something boxes of cookies for school (very limited success Roll Eyes).

I do genuinely wish almost everyone to have a nice day though.
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #26 - 06/16/17 at 11:48:41
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/15/17 at 19:31:15:
Hello.

Against 10...h6 probably 11.Bf3 is most straightforward.

I checked a bit and I can't find a decent looking setup for black; even though there are some dead ends white can stumble upon with less than great play.


Nice analysis. Just one query: in the 17...Kc8 line, what happens after 22...Rxh6 - ?

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/15/17 at 19:31:15:
Have a nice day.


You're not a used car salesman by any chance, are you? Smiley
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #25 - 06/15/17 at 19:31:15
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Hello.

Against 10...h6 probably 11.Bf3 is most straightforward.

I checked a bit and I can't find a decent looking setup for black; even though there are some dead ends white can stumble upon with less than great play.



Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #24 - 06/13/17 at 07:25:50
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mn wrote on 06/12/17 at 21:51:16:
So in the first line, what's happening after 12 Bf3 -? 12...Qf5 13 c4 Re8 14 Re1 transposes to Shaw's line, and 12...Qg6 13 c4 Bg4 14 c5!?N followed by cxd6 and Ba3 looks good for White.


Yes, my own engine (Houdini 4) flagged that as a possibility. In response it suggests 14...h5!? 15 cxd6 (15 h3 Qf5, 15 Qb3 Bxf3 16 Qxf3 Qe4) 15...cxd6 16 Ba3 Rc8 17 Bxd6 (17 Qb3 Bxf3 18 Qxf3 Ne4) 17...Nd5 and claims equality, though I can't say I'd be too keen to try and defend it without computer assistance over the board.
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #23 - 06/12/17 at 21:51:16
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So in the first line, what's happening after 12 Bf3 -? 12...Qf5 13 c4 Re8 14 Re1 transposes to Shaw's line, and 12...Qg6 13 c4 Bg4 14 c5!?N followed by cxd6 and Ba3 looks good for White.
  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #22 - 06/12/17 at 13:43:18
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Currently playing in a 4...Qh4 thematic tournament at chessworld.net. Eleven of the games reached the critical position after 9...Nf6.

mn wrote on 03/17/17 at 03:23:22:
After 10...Nxd4, he gives one line: 11 cxd4 Re8 12 Bf3 Qf5 13 c4 d6 14 Re1, with some comment about White being better without needing to memorize only-moves.


Here's a just finished game with 10 Nd4:

[Event "Chessworld.net"]
[Date "2017.??.??"]
[White "juliangon"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C45"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Qh4 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. Be2 Qxe4 7. Ndb5 Bxc3+ 8. bxc3 Kd8 9. O-O Nf6 10. Nd4 Nxd4 11. cxd4 d6 12. Bg5 Qf5 13. Bh4 h6 14. Re1 g5 15. Bg3 Re8 16. c4 b6 17. Bf3 Rb8 18. Qb3 Bb7 19. d5 Nd7 20. Re3 Rxe3 21. Qxe3 Ne5 22. Re1 Bc8 23. Be4 Qf6 24. Qc3 Nd7 25. Qd2 Nc5 26. f3 Ba6 27. Bf2 Nxe4 28. Rxe4 Kc8 29. Qd1 Kb7 1/2-1/2

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/23/17 at 20:47:34:
Hey.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Qh4 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Nb5 Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 Kd8 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Bg5
Looks absolutely prospectless for black imo and could well be the most practical line.

Have a nice day.


I was going to try that in one game, but my opponent replied to 10 Re1 with 10...h6!?. A few moves further on, I didn't seem to have much of an advantage. Possibly 11 Be3 at once is a better try.

[Event "Chessworld.net"]
[Date "2017.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "AndyAndyO"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C45"]
[PlyCount "38"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Qh4 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. Be2 Qxe4 7. Ndb5 Bxc3+ 8. bxc3 Kd8 9. O-O Nf6 10. Re1 h6 11. Rb1 Re8 12. Be3 d6 13. c4 Bd7 14. Nc3 Qe5 15. Qd2 b6 16. Bf3 Qa5 17. Rb5 Qa3 18. Rb3 Qa5 19. Rb5 Qa3 1/2-1/2
« Last Edit: 06/12/17 at 17:23:03 by Jonathan Tait »  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #21 - 03/23/17 at 20:47:34
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Hey.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Qh4 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Nb5 Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 Kd8 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Bg5
Looks absolutely prospectless for black imo and could well be the most practical line.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #20 - 03/23/17 at 13:23:17
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mn wrote on 03/17/17 at 03:23:22:
After 10...Nxd4, he gives one line: 11 cxd4 Re8 12 Bf3 Qf5 13 c4 d6 14 Re1, with some comment about White being better without needing to memorize only-moves.


Okay, thanks. It is an interesting idea, basically saying to Black: your position is so crap I can virtually give you a extra tempo on 9...a6 lines. Smiley
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #19 - 03/17/17 at 03:23:22
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After 10...Nxd4, he gives one line: 11 cxd4 Re8 12 Bf3 Qf5 13 c4 d6 14 Re1, with some comment about White being better without needing to memorize only-moves.
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #18 - 03/16/17 at 07:34:53
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mn wrote on 03/15/17 at 16:40:55:
Shaw gives 10 Nd4, arguing White is better without needing to know any forced lines.


Compensation certainly; "better" is a bold claim though without concrete lines, given that Black is a pawn up. What does he suggest after 10...Nxd4 11 cxd4 d6 or 11...Re8 - ?
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #17 - 03/15/17 at 16:40:55
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Shaw gives 10 Nd4, arguing White is better without needing to know any forced lines.
  
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Re: Refutation of 4...Qh4 Scotch
Reply #16 - 03/15/17 at 15:17:03
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TN wrote on 12/22/09 at 10:43:28:
Schroeder wrote on 12/22/09 at 05:56:42:
TN wrote on 12/10/09 at 14:29:12:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4 4.Nd4 Qh4 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qe4 7.Ndb5 Bc3 8.bc3 Kd8 9.0-0 Nf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Be3 and Black is under heavy pressure although White has to play accurately to keep his advantage.


In the line given by TN, 11.-d6 is Black's best answer. Then White has compensation for the pawn, but not more than that. The position should be labelled as unclear. In the 15 games in my database, the results favour Black who scored 57%.


11...d6 12.Rb1 Re7 13.Bf3 Qc4 14.Nd6! +/- gives White a massive attack


Black may be able to defend after 14...cxd6 15 Qxd6+ Bd7!; e.g.
a) 16 Bg5 Rc8 17 Bxf6 gxf6 18 Qxf6 Qc5 19 Rxb7 Qd6 20 Rxe7 (or 20 Qh8+ Re8 21 Rxe8+ Bxe8 unclear) 20...Qxe7 21 Qh8+ Qe8 22 Qf6+ Qe7 =
b) 16 Bxc6 Qxc6 17 Bb6+ axb6 18 Qxe7+ Kc7 19 Qxf7 Qd5 20 Re7 Qxf7 21 Rxf7 Kc6 22 Rxg7 Rxa2 unclear (B.Hjort-R.Zajontz, correspondence 1999)
c) 16 Rxb7 Qxc3 17 Rd1 (A.Niknaddaf-M.Asbahi, Urumia 2008) 17...Rc8 unclear.
  

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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #15 - 03/04/10 at 14:00:53
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Well said; 'and an improvement' are, I think, the operative words! Having foolishly found myself in this the other day by transposition (in a 4 ...Bb4 5 Nc3 Scotch I played ...Qe7 and daftly took the hot e-pawn) I'd say, steer very clear!
  
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #14 - 03/04/10 at 13:17:11
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HoemberChess wrote on 03/03/10 at 22:20:28:
Hi to all,
A friend has just asked me to try and find something for him that would be of help in preparation for the weekend team match. (4..Qh4 with Black)
Any study in CBM or book etc?


A well-booked White will have Barsky's excellent book by now, which treats this extensively and claims significant advantage for White.  So under no circumstances would I undertake 4...Qh4 against a Scotch specialist unless I had both Barsky's book and an improvement on his analysis in my hot little hand.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Is 4... Qh4 Scotch playable, what line favours W?
Reply #13 - 03/03/10 at 22:20:28
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Hi to all,
A friend has just asked me to try and find something for him that would be of help in preparation for the weekend team match. (4..Qh4 with Black)
Any study in CBM or book etc?
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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