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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I still remember a defence called Tartakower! (Read 76584 times)
MNb
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #67 - 01/22/11 at 22:06:40
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7.Rc1 Bb7 8.Bd3 and 8.Be2 give me headaches.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #66 - 01/22/11 at 21:39:04
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MNb wrote on 01/22/11 at 21:22:06:
BPaulsen wrote on 12/24/09 at 22:53:59:
Also worth mentioning is 6...b6 7. cxd5 Nxd5 8. Nxd5 Qxd5 9. Bd3 Qa5+ as an interesting black try for equality. The problem is 7. Qc2 leads to a position with a slight pull for white anyway.

It's more than a year ago that you wrote this, so is this still your view? I have looked at this as it is an interesting gambit indeed. Neither looks 7.Qc2 frightening to me after 7...c5 but I haven't found a way even close to equality after the logical 7.Rc1. If Black doesn't play ...c5 then pawn c7 is an eternal weakness; if Black does White wins more or less a tempo as the bishop is already on f4.
What do you think?


Yes, it's still my view.

7. Rc1 Bb7 8. cxd5 Nxd5! =. See Dautov's annotations to Rustemov-Tregubov, FIDE K.O 2000.

7. Qc2 is designed to avoid this due to the Bxh7 possibility after Nxd5. The positions can be assessed as +=/=, but black is fighting an uphill battle.
  
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MNb
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #65 - 01/22/11 at 21:22:06
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/24/09 at 22:53:59:
Also worth mentioning is 6...b6 7. cxd5 Nxd5 8. Nxd5 Qxd5 9. Bd3 Qa5+ as an interesting black try for equality. The problem is 7. Qc2 leads to a position with a slight pull for white anyway.

It's more than a year ago that you wrote this, so is this still your view? I have looked at this as it is an interesting gambit indeed. Neither looks 7.Qc2 frightening to me after 7...c5 but I haven't found a way even close to equality after the logical 7.Rc1. If Black doesn't play ...c5 then pawn c7 is an eternal weakness; if Black does White wins more or less a tempo as the bishop is already on f4.
What do you think?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #64 - 01/22/11 at 01:25:06
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Kant wrote on 01/21/11 at 23:51:36:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/17/11 at 20:28:50:
BabySnake wrote on 01/17/11 at 11:10:04:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/17/11 at 10:01:51:
Theory has crystallized in the 6...Nbd7 line (unlike the 6...c5 line which has seen a few changes), so I doubt anything recent has come up since there hasn't been anything noteworthy for white over the last few years, the theoretical evaluation remains unchanged. The best white can hope for is equal positions where he might be able to outplay weaker opponents - not very inspiring.

I don't recall what issues of NiC covered it since I got rid of them some time ago after putting all the analysis into chessbase. You're on your own for that one.


The Ilic articles are from 2001, 2003 and 2004 which seems quite old for this line? So perhaps they are not the ones you mentioned a while ago.


It's not old for this line. The theory has crystallized, and there haven't been any significant theoretical changes in 6...Nbd7 since 2001. Even the lines given in Dautov's database from 2001 still hold up the exact same for black. The only changes in the 5. Bf4 QGD have occurred in other black tries.


So why do you play 5.Bf4 if 6...Nbd7 is such a good response?


Because there's nothing better.

Any white player nowadays has to be able to play everything against the QGD, because there's not much of an edge to be found anywhere (5. Bg5, 5. Bf4, or lesser alternatives).

The Exchange is possible, but doesn't guarantee anything more versus the Alatortsev move order. The Catalan is another try, but black isn't struggling theoretically in a couple lines.
  
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #63 - 01/21/11 at 23:52:14
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How about 5...dxc4 in response to 5.Bf4?  I think Sadler and Crouch mention this move as deserving further investigation.
  
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #62 - 01/21/11 at 23:51:36
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BPaulsen wrote on 01/17/11 at 20:28:50:
BabySnake wrote on 01/17/11 at 11:10:04:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/17/11 at 10:01:51:
Theory has crystallized in the 6...Nbd7 line (unlike the 6...c5 line which has seen a few changes), so I doubt anything recent has come up since there hasn't been anything noteworthy for white over the last few years, the theoretical evaluation remains unchanged. The best white can hope for is equal positions where he might be able to outplay weaker opponents - not very inspiring.

I don't recall what issues of NiC covered it since I got rid of them some time ago after putting all the analysis into chessbase. You're on your own for that one.


The Ilic articles are from 2001, 2003 and 2004 which seems quite old for this line? So perhaps they are not the ones you mentioned a while ago.


It's not old for this line. The theory has crystallized, and there haven't been any significant theoretical changes in 6...Nbd7 since 2001. Even the lines given in Dautov's database from 2001 still hold up the exact same for black. The only changes in the 5. Bf4 QGD have occurred in other black tries.


So why do you play 5.Bf4 if 6...Nbd7 is such a good response?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #61 - 01/17/11 at 20:28:50
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BabySnake wrote on 01/17/11 at 11:10:04:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/17/11 at 10:01:51:
Theory has crystallized in the 6...Nbd7 line (unlike the 6...c5 line which has seen a few changes), so I doubt anything recent has come up since there hasn't been anything noteworthy for white over the last few years, the theoretical evaluation remains unchanged. The best white can hope for is equal positions where he might be able to outplay weaker opponents - not very inspiring.

I don't recall what issues of NiC covered it since I got rid of them some time ago after putting all the analysis into chessbase. You're on your own for that one.


The Ilic articles are from 2001, 2003 and 2004 which seems quite old for this line? So perhaps they are not the ones you mentioned a while ago.


It's not old for this line. The theory has crystallized, and there haven't been any significant theoretical changes in 6...Nbd7 since 2001. Even the lines given in Dautov's database from 2001 still hold up the exact same for black. The only changes in the 5. Bf4 QGD have occurred in other black tries.
  
2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #60 - 01/17/11 at 11:10:04
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BPaulsen wrote on 01/17/11 at 10:01:51:
Theory has crystallized in the 6...Nbd7 line (unlike the 6...c5 line which has seen a few changes), so I doubt anything recent has come up since there hasn't been anything noteworthy for white over the last few years, the theoretical evaluation remains unchanged. The best white can hope for is equal positions where he might be able to outplay weaker opponents - not very inspiring.

I don't recall what issues of NiC covered it since I got rid of them some time ago after putting all the analysis into chessbase. You're on your own for that one.


The Ilic articles are from 2001, 2003 and 2004 which seems quite old for this line? So perhaps they are not the ones you mentioned a while ago.
  
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #59 - 01/17/11 at 11:05:02
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/17/11 at 10:02:20:
We have updated this. Smiley


What do you mean please?
  
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #58 - 01/17/11 at 10:02:20
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We have updated this. Smiley
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #57 - 01/17/11 at 10:01:51
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Theory has crystallized in the 6...Nbd7 line (unlike the 6...c5 line which has seen a few changes), so I doubt anything recent has come up since there hasn't been anything noteworthy for white over the last few years, the theoretical evaluation remains unchanged. The best white can hope for is equal positions where he might be able to outplay weaker opponents - not very inspiring.

I don't recall what issues of NiC covered it since I got rid of them some time ago after putting all the analysis into chessbase. You're on your own for that one.
  
2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #56 - 01/17/11 at 09:55:35
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/24/09 at 22:53:59:
slates wrote on 12/24/09 at 14:46:57:
BPaulsen wrote on 12/22/09 at 22:33:12:
5. Bf4 isn't even close to as drawish as the Lasker/Tartakower, even in black's best defense to 5. Bf4 (5...0-0 6. e3 Nbd7).


Has this move (6...Nbd7) become more popular now, then? Most of my QGD book sources claim that 6...c5 is the mainline due to Black suffering in alternatives such as ...Nbd7. Most of this 'suffering' is apparently spatial, but nonetheless I can't find much approval of 6...Nbd7 in any of my books.


The three books (2000,2000,2007) I have all cite 6...c5 as the main line, but given a trio of NiC articles on 6...Nbd7, in addition to Dautov's comments in his database (2001) on 5. Bf4 I'm led to believe white has achieved += after 6...c5 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. Qc2 Nc6 9. a3 Qa5 with 10. Nd2, but cannot demonstrate anything after 6....Nbd7, after the three main choices of 7. c5, 7. Qc2, and 7. a3. 7. c5 is definitely the best try in my opinion, but I'm not sure white has anything concrete there after 7...Nh5. Also worth mentioning is 6...b6 7. cxd5 Nxd5 8. Nxd5 Qxd5 9. Bd3 Qa5+ as an interesting black try for equality. The problem is 7. Qc2 leads to a position with a slight pull for white anyway.

Not surprisingly, Adams chose 6...Nbd7 against Kramnik in the London Classic recently, which ended in a draw.

In regards to the Tartakower - I think white can get a small pull via the 8. Bd3/10. Bg3 as seen in Rizzutano's QGD book, but I think it's really the Lasker's Defense that white has failed to show absolutely anything against.


The trio of NiC articles on 6...Nbd7 that you mention, are they the ones written by Ilic in YBs 61, 68 and 70?

Are there more recent NiC articles on this line?
  
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MNb
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #55 - 05/17/10 at 23:58:37
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MNb wrote on 12/22/09 at 21:57:09:
These days the Tartakower is an excellent surprise weapon imo.


Sometimes numbers speak for themselves. In my database I found slightly more than 8000 games with the Tartakower (position after 7...b6) and more than 30 000 games with the Volga-Benkö.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #54 - 01/25/10 at 11:57:11
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Keano wrote on 01/25/10 at 09:19:25:
"Winning Chess Middlegames"? I may have to purchase that particular book  Undecided


If you pay the Tartakower from either side, it is a must-have.
  
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Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #53 - 01/25/10 at 09:19:25
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"Winning Chess Middlegames"? I may have to purchase that particular book  Undecided
  
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