Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I still remember a defence called Tartakower! (Read 27149 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10082
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #82 - 05/21/11 at 16:09:48
Post Tools
My first game with the Tartakower:

Kazmierczuk,Z - MNb [D58]
em WS/H/267, 2011

1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3 b6 8.Bd3 Bb7 9.0-0 Nbd7 10.Qe2 c5 11.Bg3 Ne4 12.cxd5 exd5 13.Rad1 Nxg3 14.hxg3 c4 15.Bf5 Nf6 16.Ne5 a6 17.g4 b5 18.a3 Ne4 19.Nxe4 dxe4 20.Qc2 Qd5 21.f3 exf3 22.Rxf3 Bg5 23.Rdf1 Kh8 24.Bd7 Kg8 25.Bf5 Kh8 ½-½



To please everybody I have given the notation too. For castling 0-0 should be changed in O-O, ie capital of o.
As the reader will notice I disagree with Sadler that 13...Ndf6 should be best. I initiated counterplay on the Queen's wing as quickly as possible, arguing that my pair of Bishops would become active as soon as White opens the position.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #81 - 01/26/11 at 00:19:17
Post Tools
The position is just unclear to me after 14. cxb6 Qxg2 15. 0-0-0 Qb7. That's the sort of position I'd need to dig really deeply in to come to any conclusion.

Immediate impression is that black is probably okay.

Good find. 6...b6 might be good to go.

If black is going to use the 7...Ba6 contninuation 8. Qa4 will most definitely need to be seriously checked as well (8...Bb7 leaves a position where white "gained Qa4 - who knows whether it is good/bad).

I'll do some work on 8. Qa4 and post what I find.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
huibui
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 81
Location: Ulm
Joined: 12/14/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #80 - 01/26/11 at 00:02:04
Post Tools
After checking some more lines in the "Smyslov-Endgame" I agree that Black should be able to equalize completely with careful play.

I also discovered another idea, which might be a bit more important: After your 7.Qc2-line and your 11.Bg3-improvement, I think Black can equalize:

11...c5 12.dxc5 (Td1 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 cxd4 14.Rxd4 Qc8 =) Nxc3 (the other moves like ...Nb4 don't work) 13.Qxc3 Qd5!

Now White can either castle or take on b6 to give g2. Black seems to be very fine in either case. As I didn't find any meaningful improvement for White before move 13 either I would suggest that 7.Qc2 is not a problem for Black.

So, is there anything wrong with the 6...b6-line, apart from the very low probability to actually win a game with Black?  Wink
  

You tell the young people of today that...
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #79 - 01/24/11 at 20:52:57
Post Tools
In my experience it's very normal for those structures to see white's initiative dissipate, having been on both the white and black side of them. That's why when I saw 16...Nb7 I doubted white had anything real, especially after defending it against all the engine's different tries, and all resulting in equality.

That doesn't mean the line isn't a good practical try, but theoretically it doesn't pierce black's armor.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
huibui
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 81
Location: Ulm
Joined: 12/14/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #78 - 01/24/11 at 11:45:07
Post Tools
Well, after

16...Nb7 17.Nb5 a5 (17...Rfd8 18.Rxd8 Nxd8 19.a3 +=) 18.Rac1 Rfd8 19.Nd4 Be4 (19...Bd5 20.Bc7 Rd7 21.Nb5 Bc6 22.Rxd7 Bxd7 23.Rd1 +=) 20.a3 (20.f3 Be4 =) Rac8 21.f3 Bd5 22.Kf1 (22.Kf2?! f6! =) Bd6

Black does seem to be very close to equality. Still, the moves leading to that position as well as the end position itself might not be completely trivial to find/hold.

17.Bb5 might be another try, getting the other bishop off. ...Bxb5 18.Nxb5 Rfd8 19.Rxd8 Nxd8 20.a3 doesn't look terrifying, but still some accuracy is required to play this type of ending, I guess.

I certainly wouldn't like to play this ending against a strong technical player who wants to beat me, although you are probably right that this line doesn't pose theoretical problems to (or is it "for"??) Black.

For MNb's line:

After 7.Rc1 Bb7 8.Be2/d3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 c5 10.0-0 I guess you want to play the straight forward 10...cxd4 11.Nxd4 Nc6 12.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.Qe2. Maybe White has a slight pull here, as the black queen doesn't have a comfortable spot, while 13...Bc5 14.Rfd1 Qe7 15.Bb5 Bxb5 16.Nxb5 Rfd8 17.a3 shows that the Bc5 isn't completely safe either.

Edit: 10...Nc6 might be a better try to equalize against 7.Rc1+8.Be2/d3. After 11.dxc5 Qxd1 12.Rfxd1 Bxc5 the position of the Smyslov-Endgame has been reached, with 12.Ne5 being replaced by 12.Rac1 Nc6.

Checking this position (the one before 12.Ne5 in the Smyslov-game), 12.Nb5 might be enother critical try there.
  

You tell the young people of today that...
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10082
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #77 - 01/24/11 at 01:42:31
Post Tools
I see. Then credit goes to Hönlinger, who used the idea to draw against Eliskases back in 1932.
I will take a closer look at this.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #76 - 01/24/11 at 01:27:37
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/24/11 at 01:25:39:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/23/11 at 21:27:29:
9...Nbd7 is inaccurate, it belongs on c6 in the 5. Bf4 QGD line. 9...c5 is correct.

Thanks a lot. I would never have thought of this. Is this your own idea? I am asking because as far as I can see 9...c5 never has been played before.


Smyslov's from a very closely related position (the one I've been discussing with huibui).
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10082
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #75 - 01/24/11 at 01:25:39
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 01/23/11 at 21:27:29:
9...Nbd7 is inaccurate, it belongs on c6 in the 5. Bf4 QGD line. 9...c5 is correct.

Thanks a lot. I would never have thought of this. Is this your own idea? I am asking because as far as I can see 9...c5 never has been played before.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #74 - 01/23/11 at 21:39:47
Post Tools
huibui wrote on 01/23/11 at 10:34:31:
A rather obvious improvement on Larsen-Smyslov is 13.Nd7. After ...Nxd7 14.Rxd7 Na5 15.Be2 I don't think Black has equalized, e.g. ...Rfd8 16.Rad1 Rxd7 17.Rxd7 and with his active rook White seems to be better, or 15...Bc6 16.Rdd1 Rfd8 17.Nb5 with some pressure.


After 15...Bc6 16. Rdd1 Nb7 I'm having a very hard time seeing how white maintains the pressure.

If you've got a solution then I'll agree that white has a small edge.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #73 - 01/23/11 at 21:27:29
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/23/11 at 10:56:16:
MNb wrote on 01/22/11 at 22:06:40:
7.Rc1 Bb7 8.Bd3 and 8.Be2 give me headaches.


BPaulsen wrote on 01/22/11 at 22:19:19:
Both 8. Bd3 and 8. Be2 are met by 8...dxc4 as usual.

That's what I thought as well. To me White seems to have an improved version of the regular Tartakower after 7.Rc1 Bb7 8.Bd3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 Nbd7 10.0-0 c5 11.Qe2 (no reason to exchange queens). Compare Piket-Van der Sterren, NEDch 1991, where White played Bh4-g3 voluntarily.
Also compare


9...Nbd7 is inaccurate, it belongs on c6 in the 5. Bf4 QGD line. 9...c5 is correct.

Quote:
In this 5.Bf4 variation the bishop is already on that diagonal, while 10.Bg3 dxc4 doesn't provide equality. As the rook is already on c1, shouldn't that be enough for a nice plus?


In the Tartakower version the Nbd7 is typically committed earlier, which makes a very significant difference.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10082
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #72 - 01/23/11 at 10:56:16
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/22/11 at 22:06:40:
7.Rc1 Bb7 8.Bd3 and 8.Be2 give me headaches.


BPaulsen wrote on 01/22/11 at 22:19:19:
Both 8. Bd3 and 8. Be2 are met by 8...dxc4 as usual.

That's what I thought as well. To me White seems to have an improved version of the regular Tartakower after 7.Rc1 Bb7 8.Bd3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 Nbd7 10.0-0 c5 11.Qe2 (no reason to exchange queens). Compare Piket-Van der Sterren, NEDch 1991, where White played Bh4-g3 voluntarily.
Also compare

BPaulsen wrote on 12/24/09 at 22:53:59:
In regards to the Tartakower - I think white can get a small pull via the 8. Bd3/10. Bg3 as seen in Rizzutano's QGD book.

In this 5.Bf4 variation the bishop is already on that diagonal, while 10.Bg3 dxc4 doesn't provide equality. As the rook is already on c1, shouldn't that be enough for a nice plus?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
huibui
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 81
Location: Ulm
Joined: 12/14/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #71 - 01/23/11 at 10:34:31
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 01/23/11 at 05:21:21:
My file shows 11. Bg3 instead of the game continuation as being the way forward, with white getting a small pull after a number of engine assisted variations. Since 7...Ba6 is extremely rare I didn't give it much more effort, or think it particularly troublesome.


Nice idea. I had high hopes on 11...c5, but after 12.dxc5 Nb4 13.Qe4 Nd3+ 14.Ke2 Nxc5 15.Qxa8 Black's attack doesn't seem to work.

Quote:
Any edge to be had in the endgame with 9...c5 is fleeting at best. See Larsen-Smyslov, Petrosian Memorial 1999.

That also applies to if Mnb's move order with 7. Rc1 Bb7 8. Bd3/Be2 dxc4 9. Bxc4 c5 (that may in fact be a slightly worse version of the same endgame for white, but still just equal).


A rather obvious improvement on Larsen-Smyslov is 13.Nd7. After ...Nxd7 14.Rxd7 Na5 15.Be2 I don't think Black has equalized, e.g. ...Rfd8 16.Rad1 Rxd7 17.Rxd7 and with his active rook White seems to be better, or 15...Bc6 16.Rdd1 Rfd8 17.Nb5 with some pressure.

Quote:
I've used it just for practical purposes, but black has two paths that are about the same.

The two continuations I have in mind are:

#1) 7...Nh5 8. Bd3 Nxf4 9. exf4 b6 10. b4 c6. Black just uses bxc5, Qa5, Ba6, and then mass exchanges on the b-file. Black has to screw up badly in order to lose (it has happened before, ie: Sargissian-Ehlvest, but improving black's play is far from difficult).

#2) 7...c6 8. Bd3 b6 9. b4 a5 10. a3 Ba6 11. 0-0 Qc8 12. h3 Qb7, and black's fine. This happens to be the main line.

I usually prefer lines I use as white to force black into a more narrow coridoor if he's going to prove equality, instead of having choices. For this reason I prefer 7. a3, and 7. Qc2 over 7. c5 when faced with 6...Nbd7.


Thanks for your opinion.
  

You tell the young people of today that...
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #70 - 01/23/11 at 05:21:21
Post Tools
huibui wrote on 01/23/11 at 00:58:12:
After 7.Qc2, have you found an improvement for White against 7...Ba6? The only game in my database is Khalifman-Pigusov, Sochi 1989, and Black seems to equalize rather effortlessly there.


My file shows 11. Bg3 instead of the game continuation as being the way forward, with white getting a small pull after a number of engine assisted variations. Since 7...Ba6 is extremely rare I didn't give it much more effort, or think it particularly troublesome.

Quote:
After 7.Be2/d3 dxc4 8.Bxc4 Bb7 9.0-0 Black can play 9...a6 or try to defend the endgame after 9...c5 10.dxc Qxd1, but in both cases White seems to be better.


Any edge to be had in the endgame with 9...c5 is fleeting at best. See Larsen-Smyslov, Petrosian Memorial 1999.

That also applies to if Mnb's move order with 7. Rc1 Bb7 8. Bd3/Be2 dxc4 9. Bxc4 c5 (that may in fact be a slightly worse version of the same endgame for white, but still just equal).

Quote:
By the way, what do you think of White's chances after 6...Nbd7 7.c5? It puts psychological pressure on Black, for practically denying any active counterplay (except for the control over the a-file, which usually turns out to be of rather limited importance), and even strong players loose these blocked positions from time to time (remember Nyback-Carlsen? http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1521609).


I've used it just for practical purposes, but black has two paths that are about the same.

The two continuations I have in mind are:

#1) 7...Nh5 8. Bd3 Nxf4 9. exf4 b6 10. b4 c6. Black just uses bxc5, Qa5, Ba6, and then mass exchanges on the b-file. Black has to screw up badly in order to lose (it has happened before, ie: Sargissian-Ehlvest, but improving black's play is far from difficult).

#2) 7...c6 8. Bd3 b6 9. b4 a5 10. a3 Ba6 11. 0-0 Qc8 12. h3 Qb7, and black's fine. This happens to be the main line.

I usually prefer lines I use as white to force black into a more narrow coridoor if he's going to prove equality, instead of having choices. For this reason I prefer 7. a3, and 7. Qc2 over 7. c5 when faced with 6...Nbd7.

Quote:
One way to play the position might be the Nh5-xf4-thing, which almost any engine wants to see, but there Black's counterplay seems to be limited even further, as e5 is firmly under White's control...


Black isn't really trying to stir up counterplay so much as nullify anything white may have.

If black had to play Nh5xf4 I would have more hope for white's positive prospects than I do, but the ability to simply use line #2 is discouraging.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
huibui
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 81
Location: Ulm
Joined: 12/14/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #69 - 01/23/11 at 00:58:12
Post Tools
After 7.Qc2, have you found an improvement for White against 7...Ba6? The only game in my database is Khalifman-Pigusov, Sochi 1989, and Black seems to equalize rather effortlessly there.

After 7.Be2/d3 dxc4 8.Bxc4 Bb7 9.0-0 Black can play 9...a6 or try to defend the endgame after 9...c5 10.dxc Qxd1, but in both cases White seems to be better.

By the way, what do you think of White's chances after 6...Nbd7 7.c5? It puts psychological pressure on Black, for practically denying any active counterplay (except for the control over the a-file, which usually turns out to be of rather limited importance), and even strong players loose these blocked positions from time to time (remember Nyback-Carlsen? http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1521609).

One way to play the position might be the Nh5-xf4-thing, which almost any engine wants to see, but there Black's counterplay seems to be limited even further, as e5 is firmly under White's control...
  

You tell the young people of today that...
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: I still remember a defence called Tartakower!
Reply #68 - 01/22/11 at 22:19:19
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/22/11 at 22:06:40:
7.Rc1 Bb7 8.Bd3 and 8.Be2 give me headaches.


Both 8. Bd3 and 8. Be2 are met by 8...dxc4 as usual.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo