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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C40: The Elephant gambit (Read 17922 times)
barnaby
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #21 - 02/23/17 at 21:33:33
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It can be a real pain in the tusk if one is not used to big game hunting in the opening.
  
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ForJay
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #20 - 02/21/17 at 07:41:30
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The elephant gambit is a great too to have in the chest.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #19 - 08/09/16 at 21:16:10
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I have posted a bibliography on the gambit, which includes links to all of Corbin's games with it, which are a must:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2012/12/elephant-gambit-c40-bibliography_12.ht...

I used it in blitz for a while.  As with all wild lines, nobody ever played the book lines against me.  It is totally playable and fun, especially at the amateur level.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #18 - 06/19/16 at 14:19:31
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The Game Julian Hodgson vs JD Turner, for anyone who's curious

  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #17 - 02/22/11 at 00:29:42
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I love the Elephant Gambit.  The first game in this thread is an example of a brilliant sacrifical attack by Black. 

I want to give another one that's kind of the opposite.  This is Crafty without book, playing itself after the initial moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 Bd6.  Obviously two strong and evenly-matched players.  Black seems to play patiently a pawn down, and continues the attack late into the endgame. 

4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bb5+ c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.O-O O-O 8.d3 Bg4 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Re1 Qc7 11.h3 Bh5 12.Bg5 Nd5 13.Ne4 f5 14.Ng3 Bxf3 15.Qxf3 Rab8 16.c4 Nf4 17.b3 Bb4 18.Red1 Ne6 19.Qh5 Nd4

In watching the game, I felt at this point that White had weakened himself with 16.c4 and Black had some compensation. 

20.Bd2 a5 21.Kh1 Qf7 22.Qxf7+ Kxf7 23.Rac1 Ke6 24.f3 Rfd8 25.Bc3 f4 26.Ne4

Now I was thinking that Black had weakened e5 and traded Queens, so maybe White was better off.  But play continued...

26...Ne2 27.Bxb4 axb4 28.Rc2 Nd4 29.Rf2 Ra8 30.Rb2 Ra7 31.Kg1 Rda8 32.Rdd2 h6

Now it's obvious that Black really does have continuing pressure.  The computer doesn't have a constructive plan in this kind of position, and Black fares better in the aimless play that follows. 

33.Kf2 g6 34.Ke1 g5 35.Kf2 Kf5 36.Kf1 h5 37.Nf2 Rd7 38.Ne4 Rda7 39.Rf2 Rg7 40.Kg1 g4

This looks like it is going to be a big problem.

41.hxg4+ hxg4 42.fxg4+ Rxg4 43.Nd6+ Ke6 44.Ne4 Rh8 45.Rbd2 Rh3 46.Rf1 f3 47.Ra1 fxg2 48.Rxg2 Ne2+ 49.Kf2 Rxg2+ 50.Kxg2 Nf4+ 51.Kf2 Nxd3+ 52.Ke2 Nf4+ 53.Kf2 Kf5

After all that it's a late endgame with equal material.  Black still has an attack, and an unopposed passed pawn. 

54.Nd6+ Kg6 55.Ne4 Ne6

Now White tries to disentangle himself.  In response, the Black King launches a fatal attack. 

56.Rg1+  Kf5 57.Ng3+ Kf4 58.Ne2+ Ke4 59.Ng3+ Kd3 60.Rd1+ Kc3 61.Ne4+ Kb2 62.Rd2+ Ka3 63.Kg2 Rd3 64.Rxd3 Nf4+ 65.Kf3 Nxd3 66.Ke2 Nf4+ 67.Kf3 Ne6 68.Kg4 Kxa2 69.Kf5 Kxb3 70.Kxe6 Kc2 71.Kxe5 b3 and White is busted.

It's not going to be remembered as a contribution to opening theory, but it does make me feel that Black has great practical chances with this opening! 
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #16 - 01/11/10 at 22:35:03
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[quote]As this is a theoretical forum and not one for hide & seek it would be very interesting what the experts themselves say. Otherwise, what are we talking about here? [/quote]

Well, this is a good point! I notice meanwhie that a post of mine from years ago mentioned 9 Nc3, in pointing out that ("yes I know") Schiller himself had -- I'd just forgotten about it! Has anyone got any updates on the Schiller busts, then? -- I haven't. Move six yes of course, but I don't see what alternatives Black might have on move seven in S-C ... Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: 01/12/10 at 00:58:45 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #15 - 01/09/10 at 20:41:49
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CraigEvans wrote on 01/09/10 at 12:07:01:
Against God, I would demand white and play the BDG, to find out once and for all what the refutation is. I could then die happy.

As for the Elephant... it is far harder for white to prove an advantage against this opening than he may want. My record with both 3...Bd6 and 3...e4 is over 50%, and I have been on the wrong end of a smashing as white against the Elephant, against the creative Welsh player JD Turner, who has turned over some IMs himself in his time. (And, also, mated Hodgson in something like 12 moves as black in a simultaneous, with the crazy but completely unsound 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 e4 4.Ng5 Ng4 - but that's an aside).


Sounds like fun! Can you give us the complete game score?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #14 - 01/09/10 at 13:10:31
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If you read through the article "Filling the chess zoo" in NIC Yearbook 76 (and the following 77) you get the impression that either playing an early c4 or Bb5 is sufficent for a good advantage for White.

As this is a theoretical forum and not one for hide & seek it would be very interesting what the experts themselves say. Otherwise, what are we talking about here?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #13 - 01/09/10 at 12:07:01
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Against God, I would demand white and play the BDG, to find out once and for all what the refutation is. I could then die happy.

As for the Elephant... it is far harder for white to prove an advantage against this opening than he may want. My record with both 3...Bd6 and 3...e4 is over 50%, and I have been on the wrong end of a smashing as white against the Elephant, against the creative Welsh player JD Turner, who has turned over some IMs himself in his time. (And, also, mated Hodgson in something like 12 moves as black in a simultaneous, with the crazy but completely unsound 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 e4 4.Ng5 Ng4 - but that's an aside).
  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #12 - 01/08/10 at 04:01:23
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Dragonslayer,

Quote:
9.Nc3! with or without an engine.


It seems fair to point out that, without an engine, and without a copy of Kaissiber at his elbow, and with his clock ticking, an IM didn't "find" 9.Nc3. If he had, I have no doubt that Philip would have done something very creative anyway. But if you don't like those positions, remember that Black has alternatives at move 7, and at move 6, and at move 3.

Are these alternatives "sound" -- from God's perspective, or even from Rybka's? I don't know; perhaps not. I'll keep that in mind next time I play God (or Rybka), and I'll be sure to adopt something theoretically approved so that I can get ground down in altogether respectable fashion. But against mere 2400-level IMs, I'll drag the game into the swamp, and I'll take my chances.  Wink
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #11 - 01/07/10 at 23:06:06
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[quote author=7B787274150 link=1262053784/10#10 date=1262873441]Many thanks again ... Yes, it's quite a game! I shall take another look, both with and without an engine ...

[/quote]
9.Nc3! with or without an engine.
I can sympathize if people do not want to disclose their secret TNs, but:
In 1997 Gary Lane gave 9.Nc3 as critical in the German magazine Kaissiber 2.
In the same issue Jonathan Rogers claimed he had an improvement over Lane's analysis.
There already was Cunliffe-Rogers, corr 1996 (9...Nxc6 10.d5 0-0 11.Bxc6 Ba6 etc. 1-0 31)
Then Schenning-Flude, email 1998, 11...Ng4 and 0-1/36. However, that game was won for White.
Most recent is:H.Hunt-J.Rogers, Sunningdale 2008, where White deviated with 11.Be3 Qb8 12.Bxc6. 1-0/25.
So
1) How does Black improve on Hunt-Rogers? (11...Qc7 is maybe worth a try)
2) What did Rogers intend after 11.Bxc6 ?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #10 - 01/07/10 at 14:10:41
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Many thanks again ... Yes, it's quite a game! I shall take another look, both with and without an engine ...

PS. Have only just noticed now that the game is quoted above. Doh!
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #9 - 01/06/10 at 21:32:11
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Michael,

I must take some credit (or blame!) for encouraging Philip to play the Elephant at that Olympiad. He had a bad experience with it in one earlier game, and I urged him to try it again. I well remember his exultant email I received when he crushed his titled opponent so dramatically.

Philip deserves his moniker as "The Caribbean Tal" -- the game is simply astonishing, as Black plays (to borrow a phrase from E. J. Diemer) "von ersten Zug an auf Matt." Computer analysis might discover a hole in Philip's play (maybe 15.Nd2 improves, though it's not entirely clear: White needs to improve on the line 15...e3 16.Ne4 Bb4+ 17.Kf1 Nxc4 18.d6! Ne5! 19.Bd5+ Kh8 20.b3 Ba6 21.Bc4 Nxc4 22.bxc4 Rc8!), but the point is that he took the astonishing risk of sacrificing the entire Rook in order to keep White's King in the center and mobilize everything else he had. How many of us would do that OTB at a World Olympiad, even if we had studied that very line beforehand? That takes admirable courage.

As I recall, Philip won another Elephant at the same event and drew a third, all with higher-rated players. And then, a couple of years later, there was the dramatic downing of Nigel Short ...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #8 - 01/06/10 at 17:22:19
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Very interesting, Blackburne. I appreciate you won't want to give away your secrets, but do feel free to say more (re good lines for White, less good ...)! Any thoughts on Sakelsek-Corbin?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #7 - 01/03/10 at 18:50:40
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I have played the Elephant several thousand times in blitz on the ICC and found it to be a very effective weapon, even against titled players. Yes, there are a couple of lines that are theoretically supposed to end up in a plus for White, but my opponents found them in only about 3% of those games, and even there familiarity and a few quirky TNs are easily worth a pawn at blitz or bullet time controls. And at least twice as many opponents fell into something horrible and lost in 15 moves or less.

I've also taught it to a young student who turned around and shellacked the opposition with it in local and state level tournaments. If you're looking for an opening that can be learned and played pretty quickly and has lots of atom bomb potential against an unprepared opponent, check it out.

Since I had put the time into learning it, I have also played the Elephant OTB, beating a master with it in my last outing. (Not entirely due to the opening: I equalized pretty easily and probably had =+, but then mutual errors ensued, mine being the next-to-last.)

I'm not claiming that it is an industrial-strength opening, but TN's final remark is just about right. If you like the Elephant, play it!

Incidentally: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nxd5 Bd6 4.d4 dxe4 5.Bc4 Bxe5 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.Qxe5 Qxe5 8.dxe5 Nc6 is nothing special for White, += at best. The Bishop pair looks nice, but it seems that there's no way to take advantage of it. I was always content to see this line come up.
  
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