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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B76: Some ideas on 9.g4 (Read 36032 times)
XChess1971
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #47 - 07/06/19 at 05:02:20
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Smaug wrote on 04/22/19 at 18:42:33:
Paddy wrote on 09/21/11 at 10:53:18:
... I was intrigued by GM Spraggett's comment on his blog:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 "I am surprised that this line is becoming popular today, especially since White seems to have 'forgotten' that the problem lies in this variation: 9...Bxg4!? 10.fxg4 Nxg4 11.Nb3!? d5! 12.exd5 Bxc3!! I just don't see what White can do here!  Black seems to be in great shape. However, Cmilyte played 9...Be6 and got slowly outplayed by the woman World Champion."


Any new opinions or detail on this line? I'm enjoying the dragon in general but don't have an answer to 9.g4. Stockfish 10 loves white in the quoted 9...Bxg4 line, and won 4 of 4 games in a little self play match I had it play yesterday. So in general, how does black put pressure on white here, or at least try to draw?


Pretty interesting. I believe this 9...Bxg4 appeared in the beginning of the 90's. If not wrong 11.Nb3 used to be considered best. On that 11.Nb3 d5 12.exd5 Bxc3 it looks like 13.bxc3 is best (13.Qxc3 Qxd5 14.Rg1 Qe4 15.Rg3 Nxe3 16.Qxe3 [16.Rxe3 Qh4+ 17.Rg3 Rfd8] 13...Qxc2 with 4 pawns for the piece!) 13...Nxe3 14.Qxe3 (14.dxc6 Qb6! 15.cxb7 Rad8 16.Bd3 f5 with compensation) 14...Qxd5 15.Rg1 Rfd8 and black will have to demonstrate if he really has compensation for the sacrificed piece!

I guess not everybody likes to sacrifice a piece and play a possible ending.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #46 - 04/23/19 at 12:16:08
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Can you attach the pgn of this mini-match? I don't know anything about this 9...Bxg4 line and I'm curious what the engine came up with.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #45 - 04/22/19 at 18:42:33
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Paddy wrote on 09/21/11 at 10:53:18:
... I was intrigued by GM Spraggett's comment on his blog:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 "I am surprised that this line is becoming popular today, especially since White seems to have 'forgotten' that the problem lies in this variation: 9...Bxg4!? 10.fxg4 Nxg4 11.Nb3!? d5! 12.exd5 Bxc3!! I just don't see what White can do here!  Black seems to be in great shape. However, Cmilyte played 9...Be6 and got slowly outplayed by the woman World Champion."


Any new opinions or detail on this line? I'm enjoying the dragon in general but don't have an answer to 9.g4. Stockfish 10 loves white in the quoted 9...Bxg4 line, and won 4 of 4 games in a little self play match I had it play yesterday. So in general, how does black put pressure on white here, or at least try to draw?
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #44 - 10/03/11 at 16:48:32
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AZ wrote on 10/03/11 at 14:01:41:
I know that nothing above was forced but it gives some insight in these complicated (more interesting than in 9. g4 Be6 variations IMHO) positions. Well, there are also 10. h3 d5! dynamic lines...

What you think more or less interesting than 9...Be6 is subjective. I maintain that your lines (and yes, White can improve) basically do not solve Black's problems, at least not on short term. But I do not exclude the possibility that a 40 moves deep systematical analysis will show that Black can draw in more than one way, no.
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #43 - 10/03/11 at 14:01:41
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I think in 12.Nb3 variation better is 14...Ne5! (saving from an exchange useful black knight from useless white knight)15.f4 (15.Be2 b6 16.Nb3 Be6 17.Nd4 Bc4 18.Bxc4 Nxc4 19.Bh6 Rfc8 20.b3 Kh7 21.Bg5 f6=) 15...Ng4 16.Re1 e5! 17.h3 Ngf6 18.fxe5 dxe5 19.Rg1 Nf4 20.Bxf4 (20.h4 N6h5 21.Nc4 f6 22.Nd6 Rd8 23.Bc4+ Kh7 24.Bb4 Ng7 25.a4 Be6=) 20...exf4 21.Bg2 Nh5 22.e5 Rb8 23.Nc4 Ng3 24.Nd6 Kg7 with unclear position - in such positions two bishops (if they stay for a long) may not be so strong, because knights have some strong spots; moreover Black has better pawn structure

Some time ago I analised position after 12.Rg1 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Be6 15.Bc4:
15...Bxc4 16.Qxc4 Rac8 (with a tempo) 17.Qb3 [17.Qd5 Qxd5 18.Nxd5 Rfe8 19.Rd2 Kg7 20.c3 Nf6=] 17...Nf4 18.Nd5

[18.Qxb7? Rxc3 -/+;
18.Kb1 Rxc3 19.bxc3 Ne2 20.Rxg6+ Kh7 21.Rgg1 Nxc3+ 22.Kb2 Nxd1+ 23.Rxd1 Qe5+=;
18.Rd2 Qc5 19.Re1 Qe5 20.Qxb7 Rxc3 21.bxc3 Qxc3 22.Red1 Qa1+ 23.Qb1 Qc3 24.Qb2 Qxf3 with a compensation]

18...Nxd5 19.Rxd5

[19.exd5 Rc5 20.h4 Rfc8 21.h5 Rb5 22.Qd3 Qb4  23.b3? (23.Qa3 Qxa3 24.bxa3 Rc3 =/+) 23...Qa3+ 24.Kb1 (24.Kd2 Rcc5 25.Ke3 Rxd5 26.Qxd5 Rxd5 27.Rxd5 Qb4 28.Ke2 e6 29.Rdg5 Qc3-/+) 24...Ra5 25.hxg6 (25.Rxg6+ Kf8 26.Rg2 Qxa2+ 27.Kc1 Qa1+ 28.Kd2 Qe5-/+) 25...Qxa2+ 26.Kc1 Rxc2+ 27.Qxc2 Rc5 28.Qxc5 dxc5-/+]

19...Qa6 20.h4 Qc4 21.Qxc4 Rxc4 22.h5 Kg7 23.Kd2 [23.Rdg5 Rc5=] 23...Rh8 
24.Rg2 [24.Kd3 Rc5=] 24...e6 25.Rdg5 [25.Rxd6 Rxh5 26.Rd7 Rhc5 27.c3 Rc7=] 25...Rc5 26.Rxc5 dxc5 27.hxg6 fxg6 28.e5 Rd8+ 29.Ke3 Rd1 30.a4 Re1+ 31.Kf4 c4=

I know that nothing above was forced but it gives some insight in these complicated (more interesting than in 9. g4 Be6 variations IMHO) positions. Well, there are also 10. h3 d5! dynamic lines...
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #42 - 10/03/11 at 10:14:38
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12.Nb3 Bxc3 13.Nxa5 Bxd2+ 14.Bxd2 Nxa5 15.Bxa5 and White has the pair of Bishops.
12.Rg1 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Be6 15.Bc4 and Black still hasn't solved all his/her problems. If Black reactivates Nh5 White can try h2-h4-h5 again.
In neither case it's great shakes, but, to paraphrase Markovich, White has a bit more than he/she had at move 1.
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #41 - 10/03/11 at 09:36:48
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Thanks a lot for yours quick response!

10.h3 seems to be critical but I like Black's compensation in the main line 10...d5! (Golubev's Gambit)11.g5 Nh7 12.Nxd5 Be6! - anyone wants to play this position with white? If it's possible, maybe some game played here would shed some light on the variation?

10.g:h5 is a solid response. After 11.0-0-0 better than 11...Bd7 from the mentioned game is 11...Qa5! with the idea that after 12.Rg1 (12.Nb3 Bxc3!; 12.Bc4 Qb4!; 12.Be2 Nf4!) Black plays 12...Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Be6 - and a bishop is better placed on e6 than d7, a knight from h5 in some variations jumps via f4. I think Black has a good game here, not worse than in the main line: 9.g4 Be6. Maybe we should check it here with some game?
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #40 - 10/03/11 at 03:02:57
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Concerning 9.g4 h5 I refer to De Firmian-Garcia Martinez, Olympiade 1984. White played 10.gxh5 Nxh5 11.O-O-O. The Knight on h5 is offside, so combined play in the centre and on the King's wing should promise an advantage.
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #39 - 10/02/11 at 11:11:37
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Since I have never played 9 g4 as white am not sure. According to Fritz statistics whites best move is h3, waiting for black to commit.

..............................................................

Korchnoi has also played 9 .. Nd7, but I suspect white is better there after both h4 and 0-0-0 but I have never played it with either side.
« Last Edit: 10/03/11 at 03:03:19 by MNb »  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #38 - 10/02/11 at 09:04:58
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Hello!
Why not 9...h5? What's the punisher?
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #37 - 09/28/11 at 08:59:28
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not so new to him, as I was checking MCO-14th ed. the other day and 11. h4 Qa5 12. h5 Rfc8 13. hxg6 was mentioned based on Nunn-Ward, 1984!
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #36 - 09/27/11 at 20:57:25
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The line I mentioned at the last updade at subscription section with Nxd4 Bxd4 Be6 is annotated by Ward who seems to be entusiastic about they new idea, in the passed he thought this was simply winning for white but he seems confident about blacks position. However I have not yet had time to analyse hes anotations so I dont know.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #35 - 09/27/11 at 10:49:34
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MNb wrote on 09/26/11 at 13:28:38:
...
If 10.Nxe6 is dangerous as well then White has an equally aggressive option with 9.g4, similar in ideas. I'm not so sure if 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.h4 is objectively better, mainly because I haven't all the transpositions figured out yet - White always can castle Queenside if it suits, though usually has to play a2-a3 first. For instance, to anticipate line d above, 11...Qa5 12.h5 Rfc8 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.a3 (14.g5 Nh5 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.f4 Skacel-Vacek, CZE 2005, Nxf4 17.Qxf4 Rxc3 -+) Rab8 (b5 at once) and now 15.O-O-O b5 transposes. But is 15.Bd3 really better?


and @bragesjo above as well:

I thought this was one of the central ideas in the 10. NxBe6 lines: if Black tries to avoid this exchange via 9. g4 NxNd4 10. BxNd4 Be6 then 11. h4!? and there is no need to castle! I usually follow this up with the quick h4-h5-h6 plan. After the exchange of 1 pair of Knights the White King feels safe enough to reside in the centre for a while..
  

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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #34 - 09/26/11 at 16:58:35
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fling wrote on 09/26/11 at 14:33:11:
I am at work too. I think I have seen this line or something similar (as in maybe not with a3) by transposition in Experts vs the Sicilian. Is this correct?


There is a similar line in 9 0-0-0 yugoslav after Nxd4 10 Bxd4 Be6 but white can play Kb1 instead of g4. After Kb1 Qa5 at once is prevented so black needs to play Qc7 followed by Rfc8 in order to play Qa5. White is a tempo up and it changes the position considerly and white gets a strong attack, like playng  a qucik h4 - h5 instead of g4..
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #33 - 09/26/11 at 15:58:07
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9.g4 Be6 10.O-O-O Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Qa5 12.a3 Rab8 13.h4 b5 14.h5 b4 15.hxg6 bxa3 16.gxh7+ Kh8 17.b3 Rfc8 18.g5 Bxb3 19.gxf6 Bxf6 20.Bb5 looks rather unclear to me, but 15...hxg6 16.Nd5 and 16.Nb1 seem both to be insufficient.
I suppose the point of 9.g4 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.h4 Qa5 12.h5 Rab8 is something like 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.a3 b5 15.b4 Qa6 16.Nxb5 (or 16.a4) Qb7 17.g5 Nh5 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Qd4+ Kg8 20.f4 with an ongong attack.
  

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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #32 - 09/26/11 at 14:33:11
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I am at work too. I think I have seen this line or something similar (as in maybe not with a3) by transposition in Experts vs the Sicilian. Is this correct?
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #31 - 09/26/11 at 14:22:43
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I am at work now and has not access to any form of chessboard, but unless I missrember the position after 9.g4 Be6 10.O-O-O Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Qa5 12.a3 Rab8 13.h4 , b5 is best move when blacks attack is faster than whites. Nd5 is then more or less forced leeding to a standard endgame.
If white inserteds Kb1 or plays Qe1 then black inserts Rfc8. In "Winning with the Dragon" Ward
wrote something like that he prefered Rfc8 instead of b5 order to give white some attacking chanses to avoid the endgame.

About Nb1, I think I meet this idea several times in similar positions.

I will check your lines later tonight.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #30 - 09/26/11 at 13:28:38
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bragesjo wrote on 01/30/10 at 21:44:49:
Thanks, I will have a closer look later but I can agree that Nxe6 lines is at least more ambitious than the usual dull endgames resulting from 9 g4.


bragesjo wrote on 02/01/10 at 20:15:57:
Have look a bit closer, the line is in fact serious winning try (maybee even better than 9 0-0-0 these days) and has been negacted by theory. Both sides will get lots of play, maybee white has the slightly better prospecs.

Last few days I have looked at this 9.g4 stuff, but neglected ...e6 so far. I agree that those endgames resulting from Nc3-d5 are dull. Fortunately this move is not necessary; neither is the prophylactic Kc1-b1. White scores amazingly well after 9.g4 Be6 10.O-O-O Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Qa5 12.a3 Rab8 13.h4 Rfc8 14.h5 b5 15.hxg6. A few interesting lines:
a) 15...b4 16.gxh7+ Kh8 17.Nb1, an idea (not mine) borrowed from the Argentinean Attack in the Pirc. White can afford Black invading with the Queen to a1.
b) 15...fxg6 16.g5 b4 17.Nb1 b3 18.c4 might be worth a try too.
c) 15...fxg6 16.g5 Nh5 17.Bxg7 Sax-Relange and perhaps 17.Bh3 Dobrin-Jobe, corr IECC 1999 look promising.
d) 15...hxg6 16.Qg5 d5! equalizes and so does 16.g5 b4 17.gxf6. So this might be the right moment to play the endgame with 16.Nd5.

My impression is that chances are equal indeed, but that Black walks quite a narrow road to maintain that equality. White's play is very simple and easy to learn. There is not much theory to learn - especially compared to some Anti-Sicilians - so 9.g4 suits the aggressive amateur very well.

If 10.Nxe6 is dangerous as well then White has an equally aggressive option with 9.g4, similar in ideas. I'm not so sure if 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.h4 is objectively better, mainly because I haven't all the transpositions figured out yet - White always can castle Queenside if it suits, though usually has to play a2-a3 first. For instance, to anticipate line d above, 11...Qa5 12.h5 Rfc8 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.a3 (14.g5 Nh5 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.f4 Skacel-Vacek, CZE 2005, Nxf4 17.Qxf4 Rxc3 -+) Rab8 (b5 at once) and now 15.O-O-O b5 transposes. But is 15.Bd3 really better?
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #29 - 09/26/11 at 07:45:40
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At subscription sections latest update a game is feutured when black plays 9 .. Bxd4 10 Bxd4 Be6  11 h4 Qa5!?. I have hower not had the time to analyse that game and annotaded lines to it  yet.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #28 - 09/22/11 at 13:29:38
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It is also interesting that white has such a high score in this line with Be6. I assume it must be within the reinveted Nxe6 line but still interesting.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #27 - 09/22/11 at 05:03:07
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14. Rb1 as in J. Valder-D. Czajka, Correspondence 1991 seems interesting (instinctively I'm not a big fan of undermining the Nc3's protection and making Qa5 more effective). Granted, I haven't checked it all that deeply but it seems like white can safely play for 0-0, leaving black to prove his compensation is enough.

It seems interesting at any rate.
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #26 - 09/22/11 at 03:00:52
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Tiviakov's main line after 9...Bxg4 10. fg Nxg4 11. Nxc6 bc 12. Bg5 in his 1990s monograph:  12...Rb8 13. Be2 Ne5 14. b3 Qa5 15. Nd1 Qc7 "with compensation."
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #25 - 09/22/11 at 00:26:11
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Is black really better after 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Bg5?

It seems like he obviously has some compensation, but instead of wondering whether he's better it seems fair to wonder whether it's enough to even claim equal chances.
  

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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #24 - 09/21/11 at 15:52:37
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This sounds like a interesting sac. Andrew Martins says something like " Probebly unsound but gives white several difficult defence problems". Martins however only looks at 11 .. a5. He also analyses 10 Bg1 and 10 Nxc6 where he thinks black is better. This line looks realy intresting, will look at it later this week.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #23 - 09/21/11 at 15:25:07
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I suppose 13.bxc3 Nxe3 14.Qxe3 Qxd5 15.Rg1 Rad8 16.Bd3 (the only game I found won by White) Qh5 is about equal. It's a shocking line to meet if you've never seen it.
  

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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #22 - 09/21/11 at 14:36:36
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Paddy wrote on 09/21/11 at 10:53:18:
The 9 g4 line has continued to be popular so far in 2011 with White scoring about 70% from over 50 games. One of the latest was Hou Yifan vs Cmilyte from Shenzhen. I was intrigued by GM Spraggett's comment on his blog:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 "I am surprised that this line is becoming popular today, especially since White seems to have 'forgotten' that the problem lies in this variation: 9...Bxg4!? 10.fxg4 Nxg4 11.Nb3!? d5! 12.exd5 Bxc3!! I just don't see what White can do here!  Black seems to be in great shape. However, Cmilyte played 9...Be6 and got slowly outplayed by the woman World Champion."


I think that is an offer (or similar) I remember from when first reading about the Dragon. Don't know where, Basman maybe?
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #21 - 09/21/11 at 10:53:18
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The 9 g4 line has continued to be popular so far in 2011 with White scoring about 70% from over 50 games. One of the latest was Hou Yifan vs Cmilyte from Shenzhen. I was intrigued by GM Spraggett's comment on his blog:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 "I am surprised that this line is becoming popular today, especially since White seems to have 'forgotten' that the problem lies in this variation: 9...Bxg4!? 10.fxg4 Nxg4 11.Nb3!? d5! 12.exd5 Bxc3!! I just don't see what White can do here!  Black seems to be in great shape. However, Cmilyte played 9...Be6 and got slowly outplayed by the woman World Champion."
  
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8arms
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #20 - 12/10/10 at 09:35:54
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chk wrote on 12/10/10 at 09:21:48:
Another game with this variation. Of course Short has played 9. g4 before, but I don't think he has used the approach discussed here with NxBe6.

Short,N (2680) - McShane,L (2645) [B76]
2nd London Chess Classic London ENG (2), 09.12.2010
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 10.Nxe6 fxe6 11.0-0-0 Rc8 12.Bc4 Qd7 13.Bb3 Na5 14.h4 Nc4 15.Qd3 Qc6 16.Ne2 Nd7 17.Nd4 Qa6 18.f4 e5 19.fxe5 Ndxe5 20.Qe2 Kh8 21.h5 gxh5 22.g5 Ng4 23.Bg1 Nce3 24.Qxa6 bxa6 25.Bxe3 Nxe3 26.Rd3 Bxd4 27.Rxd4 Rc5 28.Rd3 Ng2 29.Rg3 Nf4 30.Kd2 Re5 31.Re1 Kg7 32.Ke3 Kg6 33.c3 Rxg5 34.Rxg5+ Kxg5 35.Rg1+ Kh6 36.e5 dxe5 37.Ke4 Ng6 38.Bc4 a5 39.Kd5 Rf2 40.b4 axb4 41.cxb4 h4 42.a4 h3 43.a5 h2 44.Rh1 Kg5 45.b5 Kg4 46.b6 axb6 47.a6 Kg3 48.a7 Rf8 49.Kc6 Nf4 50.Ra1 e4 51.Ba6 Nh3 52.Bb7 Ng1 0-1.

Anyone who has watched commentary to this game? Or made some own analysis?


Fortunately for me, I did but only upto move 13. Trent & Gordon did the first session before Daniel King & Chris Ward took over. Wonderful to hear the background behind move 9... Be6 in the Dragon setups!
  
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chk
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #19 - 12/10/10 at 09:21:48
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Another game with this variation. Of course Short has played 9. g4 before, but I don't think he has used the approach discussed here with NxBe6.

Short,N (2680) - McShane,L (2645) [B76]
2nd London Chess Classic London ENG (2), 09.12.2010
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 10.Nxe6 fxe6 11.0-0-0 Rc8 12.Bc4 Qd7 13.Bb3 Na5 14.h4 Nc4 15.Qd3 Qc6 16.Ne2 Nd7 17.Nd4 Qa6 18.f4 e5 19.fxe5 Ndxe5 20.Qe2 Kh8 21.h5 gxh5 22.g5 Ng4 23.Bg1 Nce3 24.Qxa6 bxa6 25.Bxe3 Nxe3 26.Rd3 Bxd4 27.Rxd4 Rc5 28.Rd3 Ng2 29.Rg3 Nf4 30.Kd2 Re5 31.Re1 Kg7 32.Ke3 Kg6 33.c3 Rxg5 34.Rxg5+ Kxg5 35.Rg1+ Kh6 36.e5 dxe5 37.Ke4 Ng6 38.Bc4 a5 39.Kd5 Rf2 40.b4 axb4 41.cxb4 h4 42.a4 h3 43.a5 h2 44.Rh1 Kg5 45.b5 Kg4 46.b6 axb6 47.a6 Kg3 48.a7 Rf8 49.Kc6 Nf4 50.Ra1 e4 51.Ba6 Nh3 52.Bb7 Ng1 0-1.

Anyone who has watched commentary to this game? Or made some own analysis?
  

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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #18 - 10/01/10 at 17:33:21
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A recent game from the olympics between Ponomariov and Radjabov in g4 Nxe6 variation. Radjabov did put hes rook to c8 and according to computer white was much better most of the game except the position where they agreed to a draw when I think black is better and computer agrees.

[Event "39th Olympiad Men"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk RUS"]
[Date "2010.09.30"]
[Round "9.1"]
[White "Ponomariov, Ruslan"]
[Black "Radjabov, Teimour"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B75"]
[WhiteElo "2749"]
[BlackElo "2748"]
[PlyCount "86"]
[EventDate "2010.09.21"]
[EventType "team"]
[WhiteTeam "UKR"]
[BlackTeam "AZE"]



« Last Edit: 09/26/11 at 12:09:21 by MNb »  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #17 - 09/01/10 at 08:33:45
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9. Bc4 & 9. O-O-O are obviously the main lines.

9. g4 was considered mute due to 9. ... Be6 10. O-O-O when Black could be forced into entering a particular type of ending where White keeps the 'bad' light-squared Bishop, which however some players like Karpov have managed to transform into a strong force instead. However, contemporary theory states this as an equal / drawish line. I don't think that Black stands any chance in applying normal counter-attacking methods as White could be playing 2 tempi up (Bc4 not played yet / and possibly BxNc4 can be played in a single move avoiding Bb3 as well => for this reason ...NxNd4 as played in your game makes much more sense here).

This thread examines another approach to 9. g4 where White may as well skip castling and gain a tempo or force NxBe6 with some structural deficiencies for Black.

So again, nice game but it feels to me like being in the wrong thread..
  

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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #16 - 08/31/10 at 17:39:07
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chk wrote on 08/31/10 at 07:41:35:
I fail to see the connection of this game with the lines discussed in this thread: I was expecting 10. NxBe6. On the other hand on 9. ... NxNd4 10. BxNd4 Be6 11. h4!? and you start the K-side attack without castling - that was the point of this thread.

Still well done, nice game to watch, but irrc $3 = !! (a bit generous for a 9th move, don't you think?) Grin

Thanks. But regarding the 3 !! marks its 1 week of Huge computer aided analysis on a hexacore using several engines + my lines. If you closley look then you will see in the latest books 0-0-0 and Bc4 are main lines. I wanted to go out of book where white has scored 55% in g4  in ICCF and 0-0-0 scoring 71%. 2nd one is for the score as after that that move score is nearly one piece down. 3rd exclamation is very important which shows that unaided computer analysis is too weak than human aided analysis. Move no 20.exd5 is mostly recommended by all top programs. But my post mortem analysis showed that Bxg7!! wins straight forward.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #15 - 08/31/10 at 07:41:35
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I fail to see the connection of this game with the lines discussed in this thread: I was expecting 10. NxBe6. On the other hand on 9. ... NxNd4 10. BxNd4 Be6 11. h4!? and you start the K-side attack without castling - that was the point of this thread.

Still well done, nice game to watch, but irrc $3 = !! (a bit generous for a 9th move, don't you think?) Grin
  

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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #14 - 08/31/10 at 02:44:20
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In that last game, Black's opening play immediately looked dubious to me (maybe like some games from the 1950s in which Black got killed); such play is indeed given in books as clearly better for White.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #13 - 08/31/10 at 01:00:48
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I recently Played A correspondence game in Chess.com against david wu. I did analysis after move 13 heavily. Some i am producing here.
[Event "Lets Play"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2010.05.04"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Prakash,Om"]
[Black "Wu,David"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Master Om"]
[ECO "B76"]
[PlyCount "32"]

« Last Edit: 09/26/11 at 12:08:36 by MNb »  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #12 - 06/27/10 at 18:20:31
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After 12..Qc8 I think 13.Bd4 looks very interesting. I don't know if it has been played.

To my mind 14.Bxe5 is a threat. A critical variation therefore might be 14..Nc6 15.Bg1 Nd7 16.h4 Ne5 17.f4 Nc4 18.Qd3 b5
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #11 - 06/27/10 at 00:28:53
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Instead of 12.-Qc8 and 12.-Rc8 Black also has 12.-Qa5 which was not analyzed by Breder. In a corr game I failed to demonstrate a white advantage.

[Event "RA-2010-0-00096"]
[Site "Lechenicher SchachServer"]
[Date "2010.06.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Schroeder, Christoph"]
[Black "Santo, Moises"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2105"]
[BlackElo "2018"]
[PlyCount "50"]
[EventDate "2010.05.27"]



« Last Edit: 09/26/11 at 12:07:57 by MNb »  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #10 - 05/23/10 at 09:15:57
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I guess it does fit very well with the modern trend of not really trying terribly hard to mate black Smiley

From that perspective unsurprising its not a terrible move - you're getting the bishop pair for starters.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #9 - 05/23/10 at 06:35:57
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I thought 9..Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.0-0-0 Kb1 12.Rfc8 a3 13.Rab8 g5 14.Nh5 Nd5 15.Qxd2 Rxd2 was white's best in this variation, although I haven't kept myself very updated.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #8 - 05/04/10 at 20:34:30
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Today from the fritzserver 9.g4 Le6 10.Nxe6!?; Dennis Breder assumes white has a slight adv.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2010.05.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "9.g4 gegen den Drachen"]
[Black "Sizilianer"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B76"]
[Annotator "Dennis Breder"]
[PlyCount "32"]




« Last Edit: 09/26/11 at 12:07:07 by MNb »  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #7 - 04/26/10 at 18:18:38
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What are the critical lines?
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. g4 Be6 10. Nxe6 fxe6 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Be2 Qc8 13. Kb1

Engines want to play immediate Nc4 instead of Golubevs Nfd7 if 12...Qc8 is better try for black.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #6 - 02/01/10 at 20:15:57
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bragesjo wrote on 01/30/10 at 21:44:49:
Thanks, I will have a closer look later but I can agree that Nxe6 lines is at least more ambitious than the usual dull endgames resulting from 9 g4.


Have look a bit closer, the line is in fact serious winning try (maybee even better than 9 0-0-0 these days) and has been negacted by theory. Both sides will get lots of play, maybee white has the slightly better prospecs.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #5 - 01/30/10 at 21:44:49
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Thanks, I will have a closer look later but I can agree that Nxe6 lines is at least more ambitious than the usual dull endgames resulting from 9 g4.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #4 - 01/30/10 at 21:30:32
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bragesjo wrote on 01/30/10 at 12:59:45:
gipc wrote on 01/30/10 at 12:41:52:
In the 9...Be6 variation, 10.Nxe6 has a better reputation than 10.0-0-0
According to C. Hansen white has the edge in this rather sharp position with the themeatic h4/h5


That was big news to me. since the positon has been considered equal (or good for black) there since at least 1990:s..


Maybe 10 Nxe6 is coming into fashion and is due for a reappraisal. Vallejo has played it twice, including last week in Gibraltar (attached).
  

Dragon9g4news.pgn ( 1 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #3 - 01/30/10 at 12:59:45
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gipc wrote on 01/30/10 at 12:41:52:
In the 9...Be6 variation, 10.Nxe6 has a better reputation than 10.0-0-0
According to C. Hansen white has the edge in this rather sharp position with the themeatic h4/h5


That was big news to me. since the positon has been considered equal (or good for black) there since at least 1990:s..
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #2 - 01/30/10 at 12:41:52
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In the 9...Be6 variation, 10.Nxe6 has a better reputation than 10.0-0-0
According to C. Hansen white has the edge in this rather sharp position with the themeatic h4/h5
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #1 - 12/29/09 at 21:13:15
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Here are some thoughts, Nxd4 is the wrong move order since white does not have to castle!

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "32"]



About the final position, white has no advantage at all. The lighsqured Bishop is a weak piece bad Bishop since it is on the same colour as the d5 pawn and most other pawns while blacks knight can manouver.

But it is true that white has space advantage and that black has a backward pawn. However,  the final position has always been considered equal.

Also, I can not resist to post one of my latest Dragons in the g4 line

[Event "Friendly Game, 2m + 1s"]
[Site "Playchess.com Café"]
[Date "2009.12.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Guest602035"]
[Black "Tomas Bragesjö"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B76"]
[Annotator "Tomas,Bragesjo"]
[PlyCount "72"]
[EventDate "2009.12.27"]
[TimeControl "120+1"]

0-1
« Last Edit: 09/26/11 at 12:06:18 by MNb »  
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B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
12/29/09 at 16:40:13
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I'm looking for some interesting lines for black after 9.g4. (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 00 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4)

-the line 9...Bxg4 looks interesting maybe for a quick game but not for a long:
10.fxg4 Nxg4 11.Nb3! a5 is the main line (d5!? is Rybka suggestion and after 12.exd5 Bxc3 13.bxc3 Nxe3 14.Qxe3 Qxd5 15.Rg1 Rac8 black have some compensations but I prefer white) 12.a4 Nxe3 13.Qxe3 Nb4 14.000 Rc8 15.Kb1! Qc7 16.Nd4 Qc5 17.Qd2 and white are better, I don't see ideas for black, but white're going to play Bh3 and Rhf1

-9..Bd7 looks too slow if white play 10.h4!

-9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 is the main line
11.000 Qa5 12.a3 Rab8 (Rfc8? 13.h4 Rab8 14.h5 b5 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Qg5! Bd7 17.Nd5! +/-) 13.h4 b5 14.Nd5 Qxd2+ 15.Rxd2 Bxd5 16.exd5 += White have the bishop pair, and are going to play g5 and Bh3

Do you see something better than this endgame ?
« Last Edit: 09/21/11 at 15:08:58 by MNb »  
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