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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play? (Read 18815 times)
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #58 - 02/03/17 at 08:47:47
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I thought the westerinen line was under a cloud. I know Lakdawala gave it a chapter in his book, but it isnt a line that i'm too familiar with (it doesnt seem to come up in discussions with other Alekhine players for example or feature in the few Alekhine games i've seen in articles).


An annotated game on this site would be good, however I cannot find a single one in the games archive
« Last Edit: 02/03/17 at 09:57:35 by GMTonyKosten »  
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RoleyPoley
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #57 - 01/29/17 at 13:07:38
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helmet wrote on 01/23/17 at 03:06:23:
Slightly different move order but Westerinens anti main line means you are not forced to choose any of the above.

1.e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 Nb6 Nf3 d5

The idea is to move the Knight to b6 before it is forced there, which means d6 can be ommited in favour of d5  aiming for a caro cann / french advanced type position, closed but with the bad bishop outside the pawn chain, and the option to play c5 in one move unlike the Caro

Positions are richer and less grinding than the normal c6 alekhine main line and less risky than some of the alternative Alekhine methods of meeting Nff3 the added bonus is it confuses opponents
If white does not play Nf3 on movve 4 you can transpose back to normal Alekhine lines with d6.



I thought the westerinen line was under a cloud. I know Lakdawala gave it a chapter in his book, but it isnt a line that i'm too familiar with (it doesnt seem to come up in discussions with other Alekhine players for example or feature in the few Alekhine games i've seen in articles).
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #56 - 01/29/17 at 00:34:38
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kylemeister wrote on 06/13/16 at 07:49:55:
Keano wrote on 05/16/16 at 21:27:03:
I think the "old main line" is worth a punt, the old guys knew a thing or two


I noticed that Rapport "took your advice" and scored 1.5/2 with it in his match against Navara.  I wonder what the players thought about this kind of thing:  4...Bg4 5. Be2 e6 6. O-O Be7 7. h3 Bh5 8. c4 Nb6 9. Nc3 O-O 10. Be3 d5 11. c5 Bxf3 12. gf, which as far as I know has long been considered +=.


Indeed. Rozentalis is also a believer.

It looks like the comps are laughing in the face of the old theory.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #55 - 01/23/17 at 03:06:23
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Slightly different move order but Westerinens anti main line means you are not forced to choose any of the above.

1.e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 Nb6 Nf3 d5

The idea is to move the Knight to b6 before it is forced there, which means d6 can be ommited in favour of d5  aiming for a caro cann / french advanced type position, closed but with the bad bishop outside the pawn chain, and the option to play c5 in one move unlike the Caro

Positions are richer and less grinding than the normal c6 alekhine main line and less risky than some of the alternative Alekhine methods of meeting Nff3 the added bonus is it confuses opponents
If white does not play Nf3 on movve 4 you can transpose back to normal Alekhine lines with d6.

  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #54 - 11/12/16 at 12:24:04
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To Ig:
1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5  3.d4 d6  4.Nf3 dxe5  5.Nxe5 c6  6.Be2 Bf5  7.0–0 Nd7 8.Nf3 Qc7 9. Nh4 Bg6 10.c4 Nf4  11.Bf3 Bxb1  12. Rxb1 g5
13.g3 (13.Nf5 is advocated by Ig and it is a good alternative) O-O-O 14.Nf5 e6  15.Ne3

Ig (Reply #53) has advocated, that 15.Ne3 is a strong move, but I believe that black still has dynamic play. After 15.... Ne5 possible continuations are 16. Kh1 Ng6  17.b4 f5  18.Be2 f4 =
or 16.gxf4 Rxd4  17.fxe5 Rxd1  18.Rxd1 Qxe5=
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #53 - 09/24/16 at 22:59:18
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Kam

perhaps White need not be so "nice". I guess that 15.Ne3 (instead of 15.gxf4) keeps the pressure; perhaps 13...e6 may be better

also after 12...g5 white can play 13.Nf5 at once (transposing or not); if we are worried with this move
perhaps the move order 12...e6 13.g3 g5 is better (although here 13...Ng6 is playable)

anyway i am less convinced with 10...Nf4
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #52 - 09/24/16 at 12:42:20
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To Ig: (Reply #51)
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.Nxe5 c6 6.Be2 Bf5 7.0–0 Nd7 8.Nf3 Qc7 9.Nh4 Bg6 10.c4 Nf4 11.Bf3 Bxb1  12.Rxb1 g5 13.g3

The move 13…. e6 is slightly better and it should at least get equality with best play. The white knight is restricted to staying on the rim, and black’s initiative on the king side can be sustained for quite a long period. A mistake by white could easily result in a fine crushing black victory.

After the move 13...0–0–0 white can play 14.Nf5 which leads to neutralising of the black initiative on the king side, but surprisingly after today reviewing my analysis in response to your question (I initially thought 13…. O-O-O was totally good for white), black has resources and equality may also be achievable.

I have looked at 13....  O-O-O  14.Nf5 e6 15.gxf4 exf5 Black has a nice king side pawn mass, but the unprotectable pawn on the f5-square can be easily captured. 16.Qd3 Bd6!? (move discovered today) (previously only explored 16...g4 17.Bg2 Bg7 18.d5 cxd5 19.cxd5 Nb6±) 17.Qxf5 White exploits the weak f5-square and the white queen becomes a spanner in the works of blacks kingside attack. 17…. Bxf4 18.Kh1 Bxc1 19.Rbxc1 Qd6 20.d5 Qf6 21.Bg4 Kb8 22.f4 h6 =

Would you have some analysis, which would support or challenge my claims?
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #51 - 09/23/16 at 19:52:14
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Kam

any reason you prefer 13...e6 to 13...0-0-0, after 11...Bxb1
12 Rxb1 g5 13.g3 ?
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #50 - 09/23/16 at 05:25:14
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1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.Nxe5 c6 6.Be2 Bf5 7.0–0 Nd7 8.Nf3 Qc7 9.Nh4 Bg6 10.c4 Nf4 (I really love this move and black’s king side pawn just  may stampede towards the white king)
11.Bf3  (mentioned by Tonyro on post #47.) I would play 11…. Bxb1 and a possible continuation is 12.Rxb1 g5!? 13.g3 e6. I wonder how Tony would continue after  11….Bxb1?
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #49 - 09/22/16 at 22:47:22
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TonyRo wrote on 09/22/16 at 14:55:19:
Tony - after 10.c4 cant Black play 10...Nf4 ?
I looked at 11.Bf3 and didn't really understand why Black would want to play this position.


Right ! I mixed the move order (you are suggesting c4 after having played Nh4) I like this (for White)

  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #48 - 09/22/16 at 21:06:39
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Bibelette wrote on 09/22/16 at 13:09:45:
I think one reason the Kengis went out of fashion is the variation 5...g6 6.c4 Nb6. Black should play a quick ...c5 which is not to every Alekhine player's liking.

Perhaps, but the line seems theoretically totally fine to me. And what Alekhine player is not going to want to start chipping away with ...c5? That's thematic in quite a few lines...
  
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TonyRo
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #47 - 09/22/16 at 14:55:19
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lg wrote on 09/22/16 at 10:10:14:
Tony - after 10.c4 cant Black play 10...Nf4 ?

I looked at 11.Bf3 and didn't really understand why Black would want to play this position.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #46 - 09/22/16 at 13:09:45
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TonyRo wrote on 09/21/16 at 23:22:11:
Also, what's wrong with the Kengis?


I think one reason the Kengis went out of fashion is the variation 5...g6 6.c4 Nb6. Black should play a quick ...c5 which is not to every Alekhine player's liking. As you must know, after 5...c6 6.c4 is not so strong because of 6...Nb4, which makes the variation quite attractive.

On the other hand, after 5...c6 6.Be2!, playing Kengis style with 6...g6 (instead of the more common 6...Bf5) becomes dubious because of 7.0-0 Bg7 8.c4! Nb6. Black has spent a rather useless tempo on ...c6 and doesn't really have the time to play ...c5.

This is why some players prefer to retreat the knight on c7 instead of b6, but I do not find this too convincing.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #45 - 09/22/16 at 13:04:37
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Hi everyone, I'm glad to join this Forum. I've been playing the Alekhine for 28 years so I hope I can bring some useful insights (FIDE 2100).

TonyRo wrote on 09/21/16 at 23:22:11:
I think I'd start with 8...e6 9.c4 N5f6 10.Nc3 Ne4!?


This is indeed acceptable for Black, but as mentioned by Sveshnikov Jr. in his recent blitz repertoire book, White can start with 10.Nh4!? and the problem with the Bf5 remains.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #44 - 09/22/16 at 10:10:14
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Tony

after 10.c4 cant Black play 10...Nf4 ?
  
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