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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Scheveningen the main line (Read 10548 times)
F22
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #27 - 01/09/11 at 08:51:40
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LeeRoth wrote on 01/27/10 at 05:35:22:
Predojevic-Rublevsky, Serbia 2009: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 Qc7 7. O-O Nf6 8. Be3 Be7 9. f4 d6 10. a4 O-O 11. Kh1 Re8 12. Bf3 Bf8 13. Qd2 Rb8 14. Qf2 e5 15. Nde2 b5 16. axb5 axb5 17. f5 Nb4 18. Bg5 Qc5 19. Qh4 Be7 20. Ng3 Nxc2 21. Nh5 Nxh5 22. Bxe7 Nf4 23. g3

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Here, Rublevsky played 23..f6, when White responded 24.Bxf6, but simply 24.gxf4 Re7 25.Nd5 might have kept an edge.  So maybe Black should consider 23..Nxa1, 23..b4 or 23..Nd3?  Time, I suspect, will tell.


Checking with an engine it turns out Black is lost in the above diagram:
  • 23. ... b4 24. gxf4 engine evaluation: +8.52 at depth 21.
  • 23. ... Nxa1 24. gxf4 engine evaluation: +3.59 at depth 21.
  • 23. ... Nd3 24. Nd5 engine evaluation: +3.83 at depth 21.
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #26 - 08/17/10 at 07:05:18
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NIC Yearbook 51 (1999) has the survey
Sicilian: Scheveningen Variation 12.a5!? by Bosch

CBM 103 (2004) has the survey
B85: Scheveningen Variation with 12.a5 by Gavrikov

In the 14...Qxe5 15.Bf4 Qc5 16.Na4 Qa7 17.Bc7 line White's Na4 is poised to land on b6 and Black will sacrifice the exchange as MartinC mentioned.  I think Black may have sufficient compensation after the exchange sac, however.  17...b6 is a good response if White plays 17.Be3 (instead of 17.Bc7) in this line, at least according to Gavrikov.  17...Rd8 and, more recently, 17...Nd5 have also been tried here.

Gavrikov's survey mentions (and to some extent endorses) 14...Nd7 followed by ...Nxe5 as an alternative to 14...Qxe5
  

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MartinC
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #25 - 08/12/10 at 11:20:44
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Yes it is known this.

From what I remember from a yearbook survey a couple of years back (unsure quite which issue without checking) you've described it fairly accurately Smiley  Practically rather dangerous, with white having several valid options and not really risking being worse, but objectively probably OK for black.

As I remember black tends to give an exchange back or something.
  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #24 - 08/12/10 at 10:39:35
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I know this is not really in line with my first post starting this thread. But recently I stumbled upon a double pawn sacrifice instead of the customary 12. Bf3 which I had not seen before but it should be part of know theory: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. f4 O-O 9. Kh1 Qc7 10. a4 Nc6 11. Be3 Re8 12. a5 Nxa5 13. e5 dxe5 14. fxe5 Qxe5 15. Bf4 Qc5 16. Na4 Qa7

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And now White has played 17. Bc7 and 17. Be3. Any word on the current state of the theory? White should not have more than compensation but the position won't be easy to play for Black.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #23 - 01/27/10 at 05:35:22
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BTW, I don't play this line either; but have been following it on this site.  The coverage here has been great.  Tony and Richard have annotated many of the key games in depth.

So, here's what I know or at least what I think I know.  After 12..Bf8 13.Qd2 Rb8 14.Qf2, Black pretty much plays 14..e5.  Carlsen tried 15.fxe5 dxe5 (15..Nxe5!?) 16.Nb3 when 16..Be6 has emerged as Black's best.  Giri mentioned this in his annotations and Loek Van Wely played it twice in the Amsterdam NH Hotel tournament.  All respect to Carlsen and those who have followed his lead, but 15.fxe5 doesn't look too scary these days or at least not as scary as the alternative. 

The alternative is 15.Nde2 when 15..exf4 was supposed to lead to +/= or = depending on which commentator you believe.  Then, along came Rublevsky, who, in his 2007 Candidates Match with Gruschuk, tried 15..b5.  Their game petered out to an early draw after 18.Ng3, so not really a test. 

Jakovenko must have liked White, though, because he played it next against Rublevsky.  That game continued 18..Nxc2 19.Bg5 Nxa1 20.Bxf6 Qc5 21.Qd2 Nb3 22.Qg5 h6 23.Qg4 g6 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Bg5! when White was better.  Richard, however, indicates that Black could have improved with 24..Nd2, so perhaps all is not lost? 

Rublevsky must believe in Black's position because he continues to play this line.  Maybe he just figures that he knows it better than his opponent, and the positions are so sharp and complicated that he's likely to come out on top.  Or maybe he's just a masochist who likes to defend tough positions.   Smiley 

In any event, I don't find any further games with 18.Ng3.  A bit puzzling, maybe there is a big unplayed improvement for Black that has put people off, but I suspect that attention shifted to 18.Bg5, since Black initially tried 18..Be7 and didn't fare well. 

As you note, the two highest rated to have played this line opted for Qb6 and Qc5.  On 19.Ng3 Qxf2 Black looked OK to me in the game you mentioned. 

More interesting might be 19.Qh4 Be7 20.Ng3 Nxc2 21.Nh5 Nxh5 22.Bxe7 Nf4 23.g3 as in Predojevic-Rublevsky, Serbia 2009.  Here, Rublevsky played 23..f6, when White responded 24.Bxf6, but simply 24.gxf4 Re7 25.Nd5 might have kept an edge.  So maybe Black should consider 23..Nxa1, 23..b4 or 23..Nd3?  Time, I suspect, will tell.

Cheers.  Wink
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #22 - 01/27/10 at 04:39:15
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On 18. Bg5 Nxc2, White's idea is 19.Bxf6! Nxa1 20.Nd5, with a dangerous attack.  I think Black needs to play 20..Qa5 here, and now I looked at both 21.Ng3 and 21.Bh5, without finding anything concrete. 

After 21.Ng3, one rather long, but somewhat forcing line goes 21..Kh8 22.Nh5 Bb7 23.Qg3 gxf6 24.Ndxf6 Bh6 25.Nxe8 Rxe8 26.Qh4 Bg7 27.Nxg7 Kxg7 28.Bh5 but now Black has 28..Qd2 so that 29.f6 Kh8 30.Bxf7 Rf8 31.Bg6 can be met with 32..h6.  After 33.Rxa1 Qf4 34.Qxf4 exf4, the ending may be favorable to White, but that's not exactly what I was looking for and I'm sure that improvements can be found. 

Does anyone see a direct win for White after 20..Qa5?
  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #21 - 01/26/10 at 11:23:36
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Sorry for not answering sooner. Been too busy to have time to give a constructive reply to this discussion.

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In the following position that arises after 15.Nde2 b5 16.axb5 axb5 17.f5 Nb4 18.Bg5 black seeks to exchange queens with 18...Qc5 or 18...Qb6

18...Qc5 19.Bxf6 Qxf2 20.Rxf2 gxf6 21.Ng3

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White looks preferable but blacks position looks tough to break in any case. I cannot see just by looking at the position how white breaks through. Also it could be more accurate to avoid exchanging qeens (Qxf2) immediately. As no black players shy this position there must have been an important game.

In Chao-Hao 2009 white allowed this 19.Ng3 Qxf2 20.Nd7

18...Nxc2 19.Rac1 b4 is also very unclear.

Once again, my knowledge runs short in these variations. I think first of all we have to come to some common ground where we both know as much (or as little).
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #20 - 01/24/10 at 01:28:15
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After 14.Rad1, 14..e5 is the latest, improving on the older 14..Nd7.  See Grischuk-Rublevsky, Elista (Ct) 2007.

After 14.Qf2 e5 in addition to 15.fxe5, there is 15.Nde2 when Black can continue either 15..exf4 or 15..b5.
  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #19 - 01/20/10 at 12:20:40
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I am very interested in this too although to tell you frankly I have exactly zero experience in these variations as I have played the c3 sicilian before.

First of all, what is the current state of 14.Rad1.

We could take a look at the novelty that Carlsen played in his game against Grischuck in Linares 2009, 15.fxe5.

GM Anish Giri analysed the game for chessbase: 19...Bg4! A very strong move, which probably keeps equality. 20.Bxg4 (20.Bc5 Qc7 21.Bxf8 Kxf8! and black is fine.) 20...Nxg4 21.Qe2 (21.Qg3 Nf6 22.Bc5 Qe6 23.Bxf8 Kxf8! and Black has no problems.) 21...Nf6 22.a5 with an unclear game, but in my opinion Black is not worse.

Perhaps 21...Nf6 22.Bc5 would be a good idea to analyse in detail.

Here is the link http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5267
  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #18 - 01/19/10 at 02:02:46
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Maybe we would do better to pick one line and try to really analyze it.  We could post some games or existing GM analysis as a good way to get started, but what I'm really hoping is that we could dig more deeply and maybe even come up with some new ideas!?  Do you want to keep going on 12..Bf8 13.Qd2 or do you and F22 want to propose something else?
  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #17 - 01/15/10 at 01:45:50
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Thank you, I was mistaken, I thought it was Carlsen who had forgotten his theory. Somehow I find it remarkable that someone like Anand forgets what to play at this early stage of the opening, although I suppose we are all humans in the end.

Btw, what happened to this thread? The discussion seemed to have stopped since I looked last.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #16 - 01/09/10 at 06:32:13
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MemoryMaster wrote on 01/07/10 at 07:03:21:
 

After 13...Rb8 Carlsen played 14.g4 against Anand in 2008 and lost.


If you are talking about their game at Corus, Carlsen actually played 14.Qf2.  Anand responded with 14..Bd7?!, which was of course met by 15.g4.  At that point, 15..e5 was pretty much the best way to make do in a bad situation, but Carlsen gained an advantage, and,  in the post-game press conference, Anand admitted that he simply got his wires crossed with ..Bd7?!   

You can watch it all here: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xDLW3YFDIQ&feature=PlayList&p=AB6944F69FDF5E69&p...

  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #15 - 01/07/10 at 07:03:21
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LeeRoth wrote on 01/04/10 at 01:44:08:
I wouldn't worry about the stats.  Both Kasparov and Emms have noted that this variation is ok for Black and, after 12..Bf8, the main try for White has been 13.Qd2.  After 13.Qd2, 13..Rb8 seems to be safer than 13..Na5.


After 13...Na5 14.b3 is white's general idea to Bf2-g3 and play for e5 now that the knight is on the dim? I suppose this is what you mean by risky and it that case I agree with you.

After 13...Rb8 Carlsen played 14.g4 against Anand in 2008 and lost. I am curious if someone remembers his comments on this move after the game. Was he so fustrated with blacks other alternatives and wanted to win so badly?

In 2009 he had learnt his lesson and must have prepared part of the game against Grischuck which went:

14.Qf2 e5 15.fxe5 dxe5 16.Nb3 Nb4 17.Ba7 Rb8 18.Bb6 Qe7 19.Rad1 Be6 20.Nd5 Bxd5 21.exd5 e4 22.d6 Qe6 23.Nc5 Qf5 24.Be2 Qxf2 25.Rxf2

Reached a queenless middlegame which he won very nicely. Again I wish I had paid more attention to this game when it was played. Does anyone remember what comments were made after the game regarding Carlsens preparation?
  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #14 - 01/07/10 at 03:22:36
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Quote:
I am guessing that you are referring to Jakovenko - Ivanchuk. In that game the position after 16. Qh5! does not arise since White takes on c6 first. At any rate after 16. Qh5 Bf8 I worry about 17. f5:

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To interject briefly.

I am curious how white continues after 17...Nde5 18.fxe6 fxe6 instead of 18...Nxd4. White's position does look promising and I might just be silly who want to analyse this further, there might not be any practical point. In that case feel free say so.

Nonetheless all of blacks pieces are defending his position in one way or another and Ne5 is very active. Based on intuition black should defend this with accurate play although I rate white's practical chances as better.


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In terms of finding a plan for white. The only really constructive idea that comes to mind is to double on the f-file with 19.Rf2 but that runs into 19...Nc4 so white can play 10.Nxc6 Bxc6 11.Bd4 to prepare Rf2.
  
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Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #13 - 01/07/10 at 00:13:29
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F22, assume you mean this one.  Was Black ever in any real danger here -- seems like it was pretty level throughout?  I notice that in games in this line, perpetual against the exposed White King is one of Black's regular defensive techniques. 

[Event "World Computer Chess Championship"]
[Site "Ramat-Gan"]
[Date "2004.07.08"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Fritz (Computer)"]
[Black "Shredder (Computer)"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B85"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. f4
O-O 9. Kh1 Nc6 10. Be3 Qc7 11. a4 Re8 12. Bf3 Bf8 13. g4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 e5 15.
Bg1 exf4 16. g5 Nd7 17. Nd5 Qd8 18. Bg2 Ne5 19. Rxf4 Be6 20. Ra3 Rc8 21. Bb6
Qxg5 22. Rg3 Qh6 23. Be3 Bxd5 24. exd5 Nc4 25. Rxc4 Rxe3 26. Rxg7+ Kxg7 27.
Rxc8 Qh4 28. Qg1 Re1 29. Bf1+ Kh6 30. Qg2 Qf4 31. Qh3+ Kg6 32. Qg2+ Kf6 33. Kg1
Ke7 34. Rc7+ Kd8 35. Rxb7 Bg7 36. c3 Bd4+ 37. cxd4 Qxd4+ 38. Kh1 Rxf1+ 39. Qxf1
Qxd5+ 40. Qg2 Qd1+ 41. Qg1 Qf3+ 42. Qg2 Qd1+ 43. Qg1 Qd5+ 44. Qg2 Qd1+ 1/2-1/2

  
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