Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Scheveningen the main line (Read 11603 times)
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #27 - 01/09/11 at 08:51:40
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/27/10 at 05:35:22:
Predojevic-Rublevsky, Serbia 2009: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 Qc7 7. O-O Nf6 8. Be3 Be7 9. f4 d6 10. a4 O-O 11. Kh1 Re8 12. Bf3 Bf8 13. Qd2 Rb8 14. Qf2 e5 15. Nde2 b5 16. axb5 axb5 17. f5 Nb4 18. Bg5 Qc5 19. Qh4 Be7 20. Ng3 Nxc2 21. Nh5 Nxh5 22. Bxe7 Nf4 23. g3

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


Here, Rublevsky played 23..f6, when White responded 24.Bxf6, but simply 24.gxf4 Re7 25.Nd5 might have kept an edge.  So maybe Black should consider 23..Nxa1, 23..b4 or 23..Nd3?  Time, I suspect, will tell.


Checking with an engine it turns out Black is lost in the above diagram:
  • 23. ... b4 24. gxf4 engine evaluation: +8.52 at depth 21.
  • 23. ... Nxa1 24. gxf4 engine evaluation: +3.59 at depth 21.
  • 23. ... Nd3 24. Nd5 engine evaluation: +3.83 at depth 21.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #26 - 08/17/10 at 07:05:18
Post Tools
NIC Yearbook 51 (1999) has the survey
Sicilian: Scheveningen Variation 12.a5!? by Bosch

CBM 103 (2004) has the survey
B85: Scheveningen Variation with 12.a5 by Gavrikov

In the 14...Qxe5 15.Bf4 Qc5 16.Na4 Qa7 17.Bc7 line White's Na4 is poised to land on b6 and Black will sacrifice the exchange as MartinC mentioned.  I think Black may have sufficient compensation after the exchange sac, however.  17...b6 is a good response if White plays 17.Be3 (instead of 17.Bc7) in this line, at least according to Gavrikov.  17...Rd8 and, more recently, 17...Nd5 have also been tried here.

Gavrikov's survey mentions (and to some extent endorses) 14...Nd7 followed by ...Nxe5 as an alternative to 14...Qxe5
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1919
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #25 - 08/12/10 at 11:20:44
Post Tools
Yes it is known this.

From what I remember from a yearbook survey a couple of years back (unsure quite which issue without checking) you've described it fairly accurately Smiley  Practically rather dangerous, with white having several valid options and not really risking being worse, but objectively probably OK for black.

As I remember black tends to give an exchange back or something.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #24 - 08/12/10 at 10:39:35
Post Tools
I know this is not really in line with my first post starting this thread. But recently I stumbled upon a double pawn sacrifice instead of the customary 12. Bf3 which I had not seen before but it should be part of know theory: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. f4 O-O 9. Kh1 Qc7 10. a4 Nc6 11. Be3 Re8 12. a5 Nxa5 13. e5 dxe5 14. fxe5 Qxe5 15. Bf4 Qc5 16. Na4 Qa7

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


And now White has played 17. Bc7 and 17. Be3. Any word on the current state of the theory? White should not have more than compensation but the position won't be easy to play for Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #23 - 01/27/10 at 05:35:22
Post Tools
BTW, I don't play this line either; but have been following it on this site.  The coverage here has been great.  Tony and Richard have annotated many of the key games in depth.

So, here's what I know or at least what I think I know.  After 12..Bf8 13.Qd2 Rb8 14.Qf2, Black pretty much plays 14..e5.  Carlsen tried 15.fxe5 dxe5 (15..Nxe5!?) 16.Nb3 when 16..Be6 has emerged as Black's best.  Giri mentioned this in his annotations and Loek Van Wely played it twice in the Amsterdam NH Hotel tournament.  All respect to Carlsen and those who have followed his lead, but 15.fxe5 doesn't look too scary these days or at least not as scary as the alternative. 

The alternative is 15.Nde2 when 15..exf4 was supposed to lead to +/= or = depending on which commentator you believe.  Then, along came Rublevsky, who, in his 2007 Candidates Match with Gruschuk, tried 15..b5.  Their game petered out to an early draw after 18.Ng3, so not really a test. 

Jakovenko must have liked White, though, because he played it next against Rublevsky.  That game continued 18..Nxc2 19.Bg5 Nxa1 20.Bxf6 Qc5 21.Qd2 Nb3 22.Qg5 h6 23.Qg4 g6 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Bg5! when White was better.  Richard, however, indicates that Black could have improved with 24..Nd2, so perhaps all is not lost? 

Rublevsky must believe in Black's position because he continues to play this line.  Maybe he just figures that he knows it better than his opponent, and the positions are so sharp and complicated that he's likely to come out on top.  Or maybe he's just a masochist who likes to defend tough positions.   Smiley 

In any event, I don't find any further games with 18.Ng3.  A bit puzzling, maybe there is a big unplayed improvement for Black that has put people off, but I suspect that attention shifted to 18.Bg5, since Black initially tried 18..Be7 and didn't fare well. 

As you note, the two highest rated to have played this line opted for Qb6 and Qc5.  On 19.Ng3 Qxf2 Black looked OK to me in the game you mentioned. 

More interesting might be 19.Qh4 Be7 20.Ng3 Nxc2 21.Nh5 Nxh5 22.Bxe7 Nf4 23.g3 as in Predojevic-Rublevsky, Serbia 2009.  Here, Rublevsky played 23..f6, when White responded 24.Bxf6, but simply 24.gxf4 Re7 25.Nd5 might have kept an edge.  So maybe Black should consider 23..Nxa1, 23..b4 or 23..Nd3?  Time, I suspect, will tell.

Cheers.  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #22 - 01/27/10 at 04:39:15
Post Tools
On 18. Bg5 Nxc2, White's idea is 19.Bxf6! Nxa1 20.Nd5, with a dangerous attack.  I think Black needs to play 20..Qa5 here, and now I looked at both 21.Ng3 and 21.Bh5, without finding anything concrete. 

After 21.Ng3, one rather long, but somewhat forcing line goes 21..Kh8 22.Nh5 Bb7 23.Qg3 gxf6 24.Ndxf6 Bh6 25.Nxe8 Rxe8 26.Qh4 Bg7 27.Nxg7 Kxg7 28.Bh5 but now Black has 28..Qd2 so that 29.f6 Kh8 30.Bxf7 Rf8 31.Bg6 can be met with 32..h6.  After 33.Rxa1 Qf4 34.Qxf4 exf4, the ending may be favorable to White, but that's not exactly what I was looking for and I'm sure that improvements can be found. 

Does anyone see a direct win for White after 20..Qa5?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MemoryMaster
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #21 - 01/26/10 at 11:23:36
Post Tools
Sorry for not answering sooner. Been too busy to have time to give a constructive reply to this discussion.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

In the following position that arises after 15.Nde2 b5 16.axb5 axb5 17.f5 Nb4 18.Bg5 black seeks to exchange queens with 18...Qc5 or 18...Qb6

18...Qc5 19.Bxf6 Qxf2 20.Rxf2 gxf6 21.Ng3

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

White looks preferable but blacks position looks tough to break in any case. I cannot see just by looking at the position how white breaks through. Also it could be more accurate to avoid exchanging qeens (Qxf2) immediately. As no black players shy this position there must have been an important game.

In Chao-Hao 2009 white allowed this 19.Ng3 Qxf2 20.Nd7

18...Nxc2 19.Rac1 b4 is also very unclear.

Once again, my knowledge runs short in these variations. I think first of all we have to come to some common ground where we both know as much (or as little).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #20 - 01/24/10 at 01:28:15
Post Tools
After 14.Rad1, 14..e5 is the latest, improving on the older 14..Nd7.  See Grischuk-Rublevsky, Elista (Ct) 2007.

After 14.Qf2 e5 in addition to 15.fxe5, there is 15.Nde2 when Black can continue either 15..exf4 or 15..b5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MemoryMaster
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #19 - 01/20/10 at 12:20:40
Post Tools
I am very interested in this too although to tell you frankly I have exactly zero experience in these variations as I have played the c3 sicilian before.

First of all, what is the current state of 14.Rad1.

We could take a look at the novelty that Carlsen played in his game against Grischuck in Linares 2009, 15.fxe5.

GM Anish Giri analysed the game for chessbase: 19...Bg4! A very strong move, which probably keeps equality. 20.Bxg4 (20.Bc5 Qc7 21.Bxf8 Kxf8! and black is fine.) 20...Nxg4 21.Qe2 (21.Qg3 Nf6 22.Bc5 Qe6 23.Bxf8 Kxf8! and Black has no problems.) 21...Nf6 22.a5 with an unclear game, but in my opinion Black is not worse.

Perhaps 21...Nf6 22.Bc5 would be a good idea to analyse in detail.

Here is the link http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5267
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #18 - 01/19/10 at 02:02:46
Post Tools
Maybe we would do better to pick one line and try to really analyze it.  We could post some games or existing GM analysis as a good way to get started, but what I'm really hoping is that we could dig more deeply and maybe even come up with some new ideas!?  Do you want to keep going on 12..Bf8 13.Qd2 or do you and F22 want to propose something else?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MemoryMaster
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #17 - 01/15/10 at 01:45:50
Post Tools
Thank you, I was mistaken, I thought it was Carlsen who had forgotten his theory. Somehow I find it remarkable that someone like Anand forgets what to play at this early stage of the opening, although I suppose we are all humans in the end.

Btw, what happened to this thread? The discussion seemed to have stopped since I looked last.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #16 - 01/09/10 at 06:32:13
Post Tools
MemoryMaster wrote on 01/07/10 at 07:03:21:
 

After 13...Rb8 Carlsen played 14.g4 against Anand in 2008 and lost.


If you are talking about their game at Corus, Carlsen actually played 14.Qf2.  Anand responded with 14..Bd7?!, which was of course met by 15.g4.  At that point, 15..e5 was pretty much the best way to make do in a bad situation, but Carlsen gained an advantage, and,  in the post-game press conference, Anand admitted that he simply got his wires crossed with ..Bd7?!   

You can watch it all here: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xDLW3YFDIQ&feature=PlayList&p=AB6944F69FDF5E69&p...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MemoryMaster
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #15 - 01/07/10 at 07:03:21
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/04/10 at 01:44:08:
I wouldn't worry about the stats.  Both Kasparov and Emms have noted that this variation is ok for Black and, after 12..Bf8, the main try for White has been 13.Qd2.  After 13.Qd2, 13..Rb8 seems to be safer than 13..Na5.


After 13...Na5 14.b3 is white's general idea to Bf2-g3 and play for e5 now that the knight is on the dim? I suppose this is what you mean by risky and it that case I agree with you.

After 13...Rb8 Carlsen played 14.g4 against Anand in 2008 and lost. I am curious if someone remembers his comments on this move after the game. Was he so fustrated with blacks other alternatives and wanted to win so badly?

In 2009 he had learnt his lesson and must have prepared part of the game against Grischuck which went:

14.Qf2 e5 15.fxe5 dxe5 16.Nb3 Nb4 17.Ba7 Rb8 18.Bb6 Qe7 19.Rad1 Be6 20.Nd5 Bxd5 21.exd5 e4 22.d6 Qe6 23.Nc5 Qf5 24.Be2 Qxf2 25.Rxf2

Reached a queenless middlegame which he won very nicely. Again I wish I had paid more attention to this game when it was played. Does anyone remember what comments were made after the game regarding Carlsens preparation?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MemoryMaster
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #14 - 01/07/10 at 03:22:36
Post Tools
Quote:
I am guessing that you are referring to Jakovenko - Ivanchuk. In that game the position after 16. Qh5! does not arise since White takes on c6 first. At any rate after 16. Qh5 Bf8 I worry about 17. f5:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


To interject briefly.

I am curious how white continues after 17...Nde5 18.fxe6 fxe6 instead of 18...Nxd4. White's position does look promising and I might just be silly who want to analyse this further, there might not be any practical point. In that case feel free say so.

Nonetheless all of blacks pieces are defending his position in one way or another and Ne5 is very active. Based on intuition black should defend this with accurate play although I rate white's practical chances as better.


* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

In terms of finding a plan for white. The only really constructive idea that comes to mind is to double on the f-file with 19.Rf2 but that runs into 19...Nc4 so white can play 10.Nxc6 Bxc6 11.Bd4 to prepare Rf2.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #13 - 01/07/10 at 00:13:29
Post Tools
F22, assume you mean this one.  Was Black ever in any real danger here -- seems like it was pretty level throughout?  I notice that in games in this line, perpetual against the exposed White King is one of Black's regular defensive techniques. 

[Event "World Computer Chess Championship"]
[Site "Ramat-Gan"]
[Date "2004.07.08"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Fritz (Computer)"]
[Black "Shredder (Computer)"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B85"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. f4
O-O 9. Kh1 Nc6 10. Be3 Qc7 11. a4 Re8 12. Bf3 Bf8 13. g4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 e5 15.
Bg1 exf4 16. g5 Nd7 17. Nd5 Qd8 18. Bg2 Ne5 19. Rxf4 Be6 20. Ra3 Rc8 21. Bb6
Qxg5 22. Rg3 Qh6 23. Be3 Bxd5 24. exd5 Nc4 25. Rxc4 Rxe3 26. Rxg7+ Kxg7 27.
Rxc8 Qh4 28. Qg1 Re1 29. Bf1+ Kh6 30. Qg2 Qf4 31. Qh3+ Kg6 32. Qg2+ Kf6 33. Kg1
Ke7 34. Rc7+ Kd8 35. Rxb7 Bg7 36. c3 Bd4+ 37. cxd4 Qxd4+ 38. Kh1 Rxf1+ 39. Qxf1
Qxd5+ 40. Qg2 Qd1+ 41. Qg1 Qf3+ 42. Qg2 Qd1+ 43. Qg1 Qd5+ 44. Qg2 Qd1+ 1/2-1/2

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #12 - 01/06/10 at 23:05:41
Post Tools
F22 wrote on 01/06/10 at 05:31:26:
LeeRoth wrote on 01/06/10 at 03:34:36:
If 18.Bg2, Emms suggests 18..Ne5(instead of Khalifman's 18..Re5) 19.Rf4 Be6 (19..Qxg5 may also be playable; 19..Ng6 of Rogovoi-Paramanov seems weaker) 20.Be3 Rc8 when Black is solid (citing Grischuk)


After 20. Ra3 (played quite a while ago in a computer championship) I find Black's position scary. White's last piece will join the attack ...


Analysis?  I'd be interested to see what happens after, say, 20..Bxd5 21.Qxd5 Qxg5.  If  22.Be3 then Qh5.  If 22.Rf2 Rac8 with the idea that 23.Qxb7 can be met by 23..Qc1.  And if 22.Rf1 Rac8 23.Rg3 Qe7 24.Bd4 and now either 24.. Rc7 or maybe even 24..Rxc2, although the latter may be too greedy. 

(edited)[/size]
« Last Edit: 01/07/10 at 00:18:48 by LeeRoth »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #11 - 01/06/10 at 05:31:26
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/06/10 at 03:34:36:
If 18.Bg2, Emms suggests 18..Ne5(instead of Khalifman's 18..Re5) 19.Rf4 Be6 (19..Qxg5 may also be playable; 19..Ng6 of Rogovoi-Paramanov seems weaker) 20.Be3 Rc8 when Black is solid (citing Grischuk)


After 20. Ra3 (played quite a while ago in a computer championship) I find Black's position scary. White's last piece will join the attack ...

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #10 - 01/06/10 at 03:34:36
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/04/10 at 03:04:31:
LeeRoth wrote on 01/04/10 at 01:44:08:
F22 wrote on 01/03/10 at 08:09:44:
[quote] (2) In the database that I have access to after 12. ... Bf8 13. g4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 e5 15. Bg1 White scores exceptionally well (+4=3-0) although the number of games is very small.


I wouldn't worry about the stats.  Both Kasparov and Emms have noted that this variation is ok for Black and, after 12..Bf8, the main try for White has been 13.Qd2.  After 13.Qd2, 13..Rb8 seems to be safer than 13..Na5.


Dunno. The direct approach 13.g4 hasn't been played enough yet, has it? There is a game Nataf-Relange, 2001 in which Black should have sacced all kind of stuff with 18...Nc5. White can deviate like Middelburg-Antal, 2002, where 21.Qg4 (idea Nc5 22.Qg2) seems to be a winning try. Then Rogovoi-Paramonov, 2002 and after 21.Bd4 Black again has to give up material to continue the fight. Finally Grishuk-Khalifman, 2002 and 19.Qg4 (to avoid 19.Qd2 f3) is an idea. It's not like White has run out of attacking ideas. Of course Black's resources are not exhausted either - hence my remark that 13.g4 hasn't been played enough.


I don't think I follow. The reason that 13.g4 isn't played as much as other 13th moves is because its thought not to be as promising.  Indeed, the idea behind 12..Bf8, as opposed to 12..Rb8, is to take the sting out of 13.g4.  As Kasparov hints, if there is an issue with 12..Bf8 it's in the alternatives.

It's true that Grischuk's win over Khalifman looked good for White, and Ftacnik seems to indicate in his DVD that Black should prefer 12..Rb8 because of that game, but if that was the end of it, I think you'd see more top GMs trying 13.g4 and, as you note, you don't.   

So, 13.g4 Nxd4 14.Bxd4 e5 15.Bg1 exf4 16.g5 Nd7 17.Nd5 Qd8 and now:

If 18.Bg2, Emms suggests 18..Ne5(instead of Khalifman's 18..Re5) 19.Rf4 Be6 (19..Qxg5 may also be playable; 19..Ng6 of Rogovoi-Paramanov seems weaker) 20.Be3 Rc8 when Black is solid (citing Grischuk).

If 18.Qd2, Emms gives Ne5 19.Qf4 Be6 (19..Bh3 is also playable) 20.Bb6 Qd7 21.Nc7 Qc6 22.Nxa8 Rxa8 23.Bd4 Nxf3 24.Qxf3 d5 as in Nataf-Stevenson, 2001.  Black has enough comp here according to Nataf.


         
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #9 - 01/04/10 at 03:48:15
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/04/10 at 01:44:08:
I wouldn't worry about the stats.  Both Kasparov and Emms have noted that this variation is ok for Black and, after 12..Bf8, the main try for White has been 13.Qd2.  After 13.Qd2, 13..Rb8 seems to be safer than 13..Na5.


Which book of Emms are we talking about? Can you post what he says? I have posted all what Kasparov has to say on this tabiya. Here is the last part on 12. ... Bd7:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


Quote:
In recent times Black more often plays 12...Bd7 (with the same idea of ...Nxd4) 13 Nb3 (threatening 14 a5) 13...B6 14 g4 Bc8 (Black has to retreat, freeing the d7-square for the knight, but his loss of time is compensated by the withdrawal of the white knight to b3)

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #8 - 01/04/10 at 03:37:24
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/04/10 at 01:44:08:
Ivanchuk was willing to essay this line at the Sochi Grand Prix, so he presumably doesn't think it too dangerous. In the game above, Black mixed up his move order and was punished early.  Instead of 16..g6, he probably has to play 16..Bf8.  E.g., 17.Rad1 Nxd4 18.Rxd4 g6 19.Qh4 Bg7 20.Rd3 Bc6 or 17.Rf2 g6 18.Qh3 Nb4.


I am guessing that you are referring to Jakovenko - Ivanchuk. In that game the position after 16. Qh5! does not arise since White takes on c6 first. At any rate after 16. Qh5 Bf8 I worry about 17. f5:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10141
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #7 - 01/04/10 at 03:04:31
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/04/10 at 01:44:08:
F22 wrote on 01/03/10 at 08:09:44:
[quote] (2) In the database that I have access to after 12. ... Bf8 13. g4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 e5 15. Bg1 White scores exceptionally well (+4=3-0) although the number of games is very small.


I wouldn't worry about the stats.  Both Kasparov and Emms have noted that this variation is ok for Black and, after 12..Bf8, the main try for White has been 13.Qd2.  After 13.Qd2, 13..Rb8 seems to be safer than 13..Na5.


Dunno. The direct approach 13.g4 hasn't been played enough yet, has it? There is a game Nataf-Relange, 2001 in which Black should have sacced all kind of stuff with 18...Nc5. White can deviate like Middelburg-Antal, 2002, where 21.Qg4 (idea Nc5 22.Qg2) seems to be a winning try. Then Rogovoi-Paramonov, 2002 and after 21.Bd4 Black again has to give up material to continue the fight. Finally Grishuk-Khalifman, 2002 and 19.Qg4 (to avoid 19.Qd2 f3) is an idea. It's not like White has run out of attacking ideas. Of course Black's resources are not exhausted either - hence my remark that 13.g4 hasn't been played enough.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #6 - 01/04/10 at 01:44:08
Post Tools
F22 wrote on 01/03/10 at 08:09:44:
Couple of point:

(1) There is actually one game where Kasparov's 16 Qh5! was played (in fact before his game with Svidler!): De Firmian - Irzhanov (1997): 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. a4 Qc7 8. O-O Be7 9. f4 Nc6 10. Be3 O-O 11. Kh1 Re8 12. Bf3 Rb8 13. g4 Nd7 14. Bg2 b6 15. g5 Bb7 16. Qh5 g6 17. Qh3 Bf8 18. f5 Nde5 19. fxe6 Nxd4 20. exf7 Nxf7 21. Bxd4 Nxg5 22. Qe3 Ne6 23. Bxb6 Qd7 24. Rad1 Bg7 25. Qg3 Bxc3 26. Rxd6 Qxa4 27. bxc3 Rbc8 28. Qh4 g5 29. Qh5 Bxe4 30. Qf7 Kh8 31. Bd4 Nxd4 32. Bxe4 Rxe4 33. Qf6 Kg8 34. Qxg5 Kh8 35. Qf6 [1-0]


Ivanchuk was willing to essay this line at the Sochi Grand Prix, so he presumably doesn't think it too dangerous.  In the game above, Black mixed up his move order and was punished early.  Instead of 16..g6, he probably has to play 16..Bf8.  E.g., 17.Rad1 Nxd4 18.Rxd4 g6 19.Qh4 Bg7 20.Rd3 Bc6 or 17.Rf2 g6 18.Qh3 Nb4.   

Quote:
(2) In the database that I have access to after 12. ... Bf8 13. g4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 e5 15. Bg1 White scores exceptionally well (+4=3-0) although the number of games is very small.


I wouldn't worry about the stats.  Both Kasparov and Emms have noted that this variation is ok for Black and, after 12..Bf8, the main try for White has been 13.Qd2.  After 13.Qd2, 13..Rb8 seems to be safer than 13..Na5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #5 - 01/03/10 at 08:09:44
Post Tools
Couple of point:

(1) There is actually one game where Kasparov's 16 Qh5! was played (in fact before his game with Svidler!): De Firmian - Irzhanov (1997): 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. a4 Qc7 8. O-O Be7 9. f4 Nc6 10. Be3 O-O 11. Kh1 Re8 12. Bf3 Rb8 13. g4 Nd7 14. Bg2 b6 15. g5 Bb7 16. Qh5 g6 17. Qh3 Bf8 18. f5 Nde5 19. fxe6 Nxd4 20. exf7 Nxf7 21. Bxd4 Nxg5 22. Qe3 Ne6 23. Bxb6 Qd7 24. Rad1 Bg7 25. Qg3 Bxc3 26. Rxd6 Qxa4 27. bxc3 Rbc8 28. Qh4 g5 29. Qh5 Bxe4 30. Qf7 Kh8 31. Bd4 Nxd4 32. Bxe4 Rxe4 33. Qf6 Kg8 34. Qxg5 Kh8 35. Qf6 [1-0]

(2) In the database that I have access to after 12. ... Bf8 13. g4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 e5 15. Bg1 White scores exceptionally well (+4=3-0) although the number of games is very small.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #4 - 01/03/10 at 07:53:31
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/03/10 at 06:05:15:
It seems to me that 12..Bf8 and 12..Rb8 are the most popular at the top level these days, and I'd be interested in discussing one or both of them.


To my surprise Kasparov thinks after 12. ... Rb8 13. g4!? Black has problems:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


Quote:
But the experience of the 1990s was to show that the most dangerous move for Black is 13 g4!? - after 13...Nxd4 14 Bxd4 e5 White successfully fights for the initiative by 15 fxe5 dxe5 16 Ba7 Ra8 17 g5!. Now 17...Rxa7?! 18 gxf6 Bxf6 19 Nd5 Qc6(d8) 20 Nxf6+ gxf6 leads to a serious weakening of the black king's defences. Therefore they usually play 17...Rd8 18 Qe2 Ne8 19 Be3 Be6 20 Qf2, when White's chances are better: although neither Topalov (Yerevan Olympiad 1996) nor Anand (Las Palmas 1996) was able to demonstrate this against me, later games brought Black much distress. Instead of 13...Nxd4 he began seeking counterplay in the variations with 13...Nd7 14 g5 b6 but the position after 15 Bg2 Bb7 16 Qh5! (instead of the weaker 16 Qg4, Svidler - Kasparov, Linares 1998) is very dangerous for Black.


Now lets see what he has to say about 12. ... Bf8 (which would be my favorite, it just feels the most natural move after 11. ... Re8):

Quote:
12...Bf8 (a move which became especially popular after my simultaneous game with Sutovsky, Tel Aviv 1998), when 13 g4 is no longer so effective, since after 13...Nxd4 14 Bxd4 e5 White does not have the manoeuvre which retains the initiative after 12...Rb8 (Ba7 and g4-g5). True, he has other possibilities...


He leaves it at that! I would be interested in discussing those "other possibilities".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #3 - 01/03/10 at 07:33:05
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 01/03/10 at 06:05:15:
I've never played any of the others, but my impression is that 12..Nxd4 leaves White a little better after 13.Qxd4 e5 14.Qd2 exf4 15.Bxf4 Be6.  Movsesian has been willing to defend this, but Black's position seems a bit cheerless.


Kasparov agrees with you, here is what he has to say when commenting on the 5th game of his first match with Karpov (from "Kasparov on Modern Chess, part two"):

Quote:
The most natural course is 12...Nxd4 13 Qxd4 e5 and then 14 Qd2 exf4 (14...Bd7!?, as in the 45th game) 15 Bxf4 Be6. Black appears to be normally developed, the d5-point for White and e5 for Black are mutually equivalent, as are the weaknesses on d6 and e4, and an analysis of this position gives satisfactory results for Black. But in practice it clearly favors White (his game is easier to play), and I avoided this variation
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1304
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #2 - 01/03/10 at 06:05:15
Post Tools
Maybe we should just pick one of the Black alternatives and concentrate on that one.  Or at least discuss them one at a time.  It seems to me that 12..Bf8 and 12..Rb8 are the most popular at the top level these days, and I'd be interested in discussing one or both of them. 

I've never played any of the others, but my impression is that 12..Nxd4 leaves White a little better after 13.Qxd4 e5 14.Qd2 exf4 15.Bxf4 Be6.  Movsesian has been willing to defend this, but Black's position seems a bit cheerless.   

Most of what I know about 12..Bd7 comes from the third game of the Grischuk-Rublevsky candidates match, where Black came under pressure.  The critical position might be this one: 

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


Here, Rublevsky played 21..Re7 a la Kasparov, but after 22.Bd4 e5 23.fxe5 dxe5, he had troubles.  Rublevsky managed to draw the game, but he didn't try 12..Bd7 again.  He switched to 12..Bf8 for the rest of the match. 

23..Nxe5 isn't playable because the b6-pawn hangs, but Van Wely later tried to improve with 23..Bxe5.  Even so, he didn't seem to fully equalize, and after some later inaccuracies lost to Jakovenko. 

12..Na5 is a favorite of GM Kempinski's, who is a Scheveningen expert, so deserving of attention.  I've never looked at it in depth, but on general principles 13.g4 must be critical, and after something like 13..Bf8 14.Bg2 Nd7 15.Qe1, as far as I can tell, both 15..b6 16.Rd1 Bb7 17.Qh4 Nc6 18.Nde2 (Anand-Topalov, Dortmund 1996) and 15..Nc4 16.Bc1 g6 17.b3 Bg7 18.Nde2 Na5 19.Ba3 Rb8 20.Rd1 Bf8 (Polzin-Kempinski, Bundesliga 2005) looked good for White.  Maybe Kempinski knows something here because I think that he has continued to play this line. 

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Scheveningen the main line
Reply #1 - 01/03/10 at 03:46:13
Post Tools
Alright here is Kasparov on 12. ... Na5 (from "Revolution in the 70s"):

Quote:
A typical idea is the plan with 12...Na5.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


However, practice shows that this weakening of Black's central control is unfavorable. The maneuver of the knight to c4 is inscribed in Sicilian traditions, but it reduces Blacks's opportunities for creating real counterplay. Typical for example is Anand - Topalov (Dortmund 1996), in which White launched an immediate offensive with 13 g4!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Classical Scheveningen the main line
01/02/10 at 06:35:18
Post Tools
This is a thread devoted to the position arising after: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. f4 O-O 9. Kh1 Qc7 10. a4 Nc6 11. Be3 Re8 12. Bf3

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


Black has several moves here, among them are: 12. ... Rb8, 12. ... Na5, 12. ... Nxd4, 12. ... Bd7 and 12. ... Bf8. Going through the first two volumes of "Kasparov on Modern Chess" it seems that he is not very impressed with the first three options and thinks the bishop moves are more accurate. I will post relevant excerpts later on.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo