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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sicilian Scheveningen (Read 17332 times)
MNb
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #56 - 10/31/10 at 10:21:02
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Was Hübner's play against Penrose, Attendorn 1972 suboptimal? He played 12.Bxd7 Bxd7 13.0-0-0 Qa5 14.Kb1 and pawn d5 remained weak.
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #55 - 10/31/10 at 07:11:40
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In Mark's critical continuation:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 e6 6. Be3 Be7 7. g4


how about the following solution:

7...d5 8. Bb5+ Nbd7 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxd5 exd5

when "forced" seems to be :

11. Qf3 O-O 12. Qxd5 Qa5+ 13. c3 a6 14. Bc4
(14. Qe4 is not so critical according to Rybka 4)
14... Qxd5 15. Bxd5 Nf6 16. Bg2 Nxg4
17. Bf4 Bf6 18. O-O Ne5 =


Are we back in business Mark?  Smiley

  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #54 - 08/12/10 at 07:52:05
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shush... Aagaard never takes criticism quietly  Smiley

well I believe it isn't really an opening book, no?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #53 - 08/11/10 at 18:00:45
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TonyRo wrote on 07/26/10 at 20:50:23:
Markovich wrote on 07/26/10 at 20:35:25:
I've been playing the Scheveningen for several months in CC, via the move order 2...e6 and 5...d6.  This seems the most precise to me, since 3.Bb5+ is avoided and there is no corresponding cost.  I predict that increasing attention will be payed to the Scheveningen, since the dread Keres Attack appears to have been mostly defanged.  Personally I think it's a notable advantage not to have expended a move on ...a6, and the Scheveningen reached directly also avoids a number of dangerous anti-Najdorf systems such as 6.Bg5.

In one of my first attempts with this defense, I lost after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Be2 a6 12.Qd2 Qb6 13.Nb3 Bd7 14.h5 Nxh5 15.Rh1 g6 16.O-O-O Qxf2 17.e5.  At this point I made the mistake of following Pritchet, playing his recommended 17...Qf5? 18.exd6! Qxg5 (what else?) 19.Qxg5 Bh6 20.Qxh6 Rxh6 21.Na4! and Black really has no defense to the incursion of White's pieces on the queenside, not that I could find anyway.

Unfortunately, I decided not to follow the 2001 CC game Sashin-Popov, which continued instead 17...Nxe5! 18.Ne4! Qf5 19.Rh4! (19.Qe3 is considered inadequate for White in the 2nd edition of Experts, p.169, second column under heading "b") 19...Bc6 20.Nxd6+ Bxd6 21.Nd4 Nd3+ 22.Bxd3 Qe5 23.Nxe6!  Here Popov played 23...Qe6? and lost.  However, Black has 23...fxe6! 24.Bxg6+ (the inclusion of the moves 25.Re1 Qg3 doesn't appear to change anything) 24...Kd7 25.Bxh5 Bd5 and I defy anyone to demonstrate White's advantage.  For example:

(a) 26.Bf4 Qf6 27.Bg5 Qe5.

(b) 26.c4 Rc8 27.Kb1 Rxh5 28.Rxh5 Rxc4 and although Black has only one pawn for the exchange, he has no chance of losing that I can see.

(c) 26.Kb1 Rac8 or 26...Rag8.

I will edit this soon to add some more about the Scheveningen, but I post now so as not to lose what I've already written.



Have you seen the coverage of this line in Aargaard's first Attacking Manual?


I finally have Aagaard's manual in my possession, and to my dismay, he doesn't really treat this line very deeply.  He treats only 17...Qe5 (? - my mark) 18.Kb1 (! - his mark ).  As I pointed out, 18.exd6 (! - my mark) appears to  ensure a significant advantage for White.  He doesn't treat 17...Nxe5 (! - my mark ) at all.
  

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MartinC
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #52 - 08/08/10 at 09:25:52
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There is always the delaying Be7 in favour of Qc7 thing too. Golubev gives a survey in yearbook 79. viz:
5 Nc3 e6 6 Bc4 Nc6 7 Bb3 a6 8 Be3 Qc7 ^ 9 Qe2 Na5 which he gives an ! but doesn't cover in the survey (apparently well known.). What he covers is 9 f4 then b5!? or Na5!?. Seems reasonable and certainly less frightening than the main line Velimirovic. Certainly potentially handy if committed to Nc6 by early move order.
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #51 - 08/07/10 at 21:49:42
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Well I can't help with the pseudo keres attack but I played a corr game on the LSS server (with engine) which showes the strength of skipping Nc6 against a
pseudo-Velimirovic setup. I transponed into Najdorf territory with 8. ... a6 because I didn't really trusted Pritchett other suggestion (8. ... d5). I achieved an easy equality and white didn't need much to self-destruct.

Markovich's problem (the 6. Be3 Be7 7. g4 stuff) doesn't surface when white plays this move order and I have since then moved on to other ways to reach the scheveningen. So can't help you there I'm afraid.

[Site  "Lechenicher SchachServer"]
[Date "2010.03.09"]
[Round "-"][Result "0-1"]
[WhiteELO "2070"][EventDate "2010.03.03"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4
Nf6 5. Nc3 e6 6. Bc4 Be7 7. Be3 O-O
8. Qe2 a6 9. O-O-O b5 10. Bb3 b4 11. Na4
Qa5 12. f3 Bd7 13. Nb6 Qxb6 14. Nxe6
Qb7 15. Nxf8 Bxf8 16. Bf4 Ne8 17. Kb1
Nc6 18. h4 a5 19. h5 a4 20. Bc4 Ne5
21. Bd5 Bc6 22. Bxc6 Nxc6 23. Qc4 Rc8
24. h6 a3 25. b3 g6 26. Qd3 Nc7 27. c4
bxc3ep 28. Qxc3 Nb5 29. Qd2 d5 30. exd5
Nb4 31. Rc1 Nxd5 32. Be5 Re8 33. Qg5
Qb6 34. Rhd1 Qe3 0-1


  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #50 - 07/28/10 at 03:20:37
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/27/10 at 09:18:27:
Quote:
I don't want to have to play 6...Nc6.

Why not?


Ametanoitos wrote on 07/27/10 at 08:11:02:
Sometimes it is not due to the objective evaluation of the position but it has to do with the negative feelings a position brings to you.


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Nc6 7.Bc4 Be7 8.Bb3
-Perhaps more precise than immediately 8.Qe2. Btw after 8.Qe2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 White has two options you haven't mentioned: 10.Nxe6 and 10.Nf3.

8...0-0 9.Qe2
Sorry, no pure Sozin (9.0-0) today; still this is a very common position. So now what? Still 9...d5 ? Black has done extremely well in practice.
  

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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #49 - 07/28/10 at 02:14:59
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After 6. Be3 Be7 7.g4 is 7..h5!? 8.gxh5 Rxh5 any good? 


 
  
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Markovich
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #48 - 07/27/10 at 15:33:02
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For me one of the main appeals of the position after Black's fifth is that it avoids the Sozin and the labyrinthine Velimirovic.  I understand that Black is O.K. there, but it's a pile of stuff to learn.  I'm not sure that I agree that after 6.Be3, 6...Nc6 is the best move.  It is a good move, no doubt; but I rather suspect that 6...Be7 is just as good a move and avoids what I wish to avoid.

Thanks for your comments about Ponomariov's game, by the way.
« Last Edit: 07/27/10 at 20:47:29 by Markovich »  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #47 - 07/27/10 at 09:18:27
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Quote:
So I'm not sure that the Suetin Attack is so easy for White to meet.  It's worth noting though that if White tries to reach this via      1.e4 c5 2.Ng1f3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nf3xd4 Ng8f6 5.Nb1c3 d6 6.Bc1e3 Bf8e7 7.f4, Black has 7...O-O 8.Qd1f3 e5! 9.Nd4f5 Bc8xf5 10.exf5 Nb8d7 11.O-O-O Qd8a5 with powerful counterplay.  I have an ongoing corr game with 12.g4 Ra8c8 13.g5 Rc8xc3

NCO gives here 13.Bd2! as plus over equal but i see now that 13...d5! leads with best play to a forced draw (maybe!). Also 12.Bc4 Rac8 13.Bb3 Rxc3 is given in NCO as better for White but the engines prefer Black.

Quote:
I don't want to have to play 6...Nc6.

Why not? This looks to be the best move in the position:


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3
(6. Bc4 Be7 7. Bb3 Nc6 8. f4?(8. Be3 {see main line Sozin})
8... Qa5 9. O-O d5
{and Black is better, NCO})
6... Nc6 7. Bc4 Be7 8. Qe2 {Velimirovic attack}
(8. Bb3 {Sozin}
O-O 9. O-O Bd7 {like Korchnoi's plan in the modern Sheveningen (...Nxd4+Bc6)}
10. f4 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 (11... b5?) 12. Qe2 b5! {this idea is strong}
13.Nxb5 Bxb5 14. Qxb5 Nxe4 15. f5 Bf6 16. Qd3 d5 =)
8... O-O 9. O-O-O d5
{this simple idea seems adequate}
10. Bb3
(10. Kb1 Na5)
(10. a3 Bxa3 11. bxa3 Qa5 12.Kb2 dxc4)
(10. exd5 exd5 11. Bb3 Bb4 12. Ndb5 Bxc3 13. Nxc3 d4 14. Ba4 Qb6 15.Bxc6 dxe3)
10... Na5 11. e5 Nd7 12. f4 Nb6 13. g4 Bd7 and the plan Rc8+Bb4 seems strong

Black doesn't have to play ...a6 after all!

  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #46 - 07/27/10 at 08:11:02
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Sometimes it is not due to the objective evaluation of the position but it has to do with the negative feelings a position brings to you. For example after 11.Rg3 ("Vasiukov's plan" according to Kasparov and the reason he doesn't trust Black's position as i understand it when i read his book) Ponomariov now played 11...a6 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.Qf3 (now Kasparov only gives 13...Be7 and 13...e5) 13...Qa5 the new idea that is the first choice of the chess engines. 14.O-O-O Rb8 and now the first variation i looked with my engine was 15.Bxf6 gxf6 16.Qxf6 with a very complicated position, probabaly unclear, in which i'd rather not be Black because i don't feel that my king is really secured even though these positions are quite typical in the sicilian.
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #45 - 07/27/10 at 02:22:50
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 23:58:43:
Yes, i know this Ponomariov game, but to be honest i don't trust Black's position after the opening.


You know, with the greatest respect to you and your many outstanding analytical contributions on this board, I'm a whole lot more interested in specific chess ideas than in what one strong player does or doesn't trust.  If you think that 9...h5 isn't viable, I would sincerely like to know why.
  

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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #44 - 07/26/10 at 23:58:43
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Yes, i know this Ponomariov game, but to be honest i don't trust Black's position after the opening. I just noticed that after 8...d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Nxd5 exd5! is preffered nowdays and this looks much more convincing that the "old" 10...Qxd5 whan i think Black have to play after 11.Bg2 Qe5+ (i dont really trust Papageno's suggestion of 11...Qc4) 12.Be3 Qh2! Deep Rybka 4 doesn't see anything for White here even though i'd be afraid to use this OTB. For now i'd play 10...exd5 for sure!
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #43 - 07/26/10 at 23:52:58
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(I continue here instead of in my original post to this thread.)

Another system that I consider quite challenging to the Scheveningen, or at least to Black's ambition's of avoiding the Velimirovic Attack, is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Be7 (Black can avoid the following worries with 6...Nc6, but then 7.Bc4 requires that Black be prepared with mountains of Velimirovic information) 7.g4 h6 8.Qe2!?  I must confess to substantial confusion as to why this move is good, but it scores very well, and I had trouble meeting it in an ongoing cc game for ChessPub, versus no less than GM Josep Mercadal Benejam: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Be7 7.g4 h6 8.Qe2 Nc6 9.O-O-O Bd7 10.Rg1 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 e5 12.Be3 Rc8 13.Bd2 a6 14.Kb1 b5 15.a3 Qc7 16.h4 d5 17.exd5 b4 18.d6 Bxd6 19.axb4 Nd5 20.Bg2 Nxb4.  The game has gone a couple of moves beyond this; he is better; I have some chances.  Anyway, I'm unhappy with the opening and confused about the right method of responding to White's idea.  I've have looked for easy answers to the position after 8.Qe2 and so far found none.  I don't want to have to play 6...Nc6.

In an ongoing casual cc game, I tried 1.e4 c5 2.Ng1f3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nf3xd4 Ng8f6 5.Nb1c3 d6 6.Bc1e3 Bf8e7 7.g4 h5.  I am quite unhappy with the results after 8.gxh5 Rh8xh5 9.Bf1e2 Rh5h3 10.Rh1g1 g6 11.Qd1d2 Nb8c6 12.O-O-O a6 13.f4 Qd8c7 14.Nd4f3 b5 15.Nf3g5 Rh3h8 16.Be2f3 b4 17.e5! dxe5 (17...bxc3 ultimately fails).  It'll be a miracle if I hold the draw.  I kept considering Nc6xd4, but it always looked as if it left him with too much of the center.  Now I'm looking at that d--ned knight on g5.

  

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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #42 - 07/26/10 at 23:30:19
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 21:02:17:
After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 if i remember correctly Gavrikov recommends here 10.Be3 to avoid the typical ...Qb6. Also Kasparov recommends 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Rg3! (Vasiukov's plan). I hear now that Aagaard also analysed this position in his Attacking manual? It seems that Markovich has to post some convincing analysis here to make as prefer 8...h5 over 8...d5.
(My emphasis.)

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 8...h5 is a better move than 8...d5, nor do I even know whether that is the case.  What I am fairly sure of is that 8...h5 in principle is a more ambitious move than 8...d5, and so its theory interests me more right now than that of 8...d5 does.  I do notice that 8...h5 occurred in Fier-Ponomariov, Spain 2009, a game featured in last September's update, which would lead me to suppose that 8...h5 isn't in total disrepute.

Please also look back and see the remarks on the Suetin Attack that I added since your latest post.
  

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