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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sicilian Scheveningen (Read 53659 times)
MartinC
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #41 - 07/26/10 at 21:53:28
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Another question after: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 Nge7 7. Be3 a6 8. Nb3 b5 etc. What if white just goes Qd2/f3 (when he has to) /o-o-o etc?

Black maybe fine but its hardly entirely obvious quite what he's doing.

The whole thing is probably fine but just feels a little artificial to me, so I've been interested in 6 .. h6 there (as in Karpov - Kasparov). Lets you dodge some of the main lines by delaying Nf6 a bit and is at least different. Do have to be really quite careful not to end in a bad English attack if white goes Be3/f3 etc though.
(There's an old thread on here about 6 .. h6 7 Be3 Be7!?.).
  
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Markovich
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #40 - 07/26/10 at 20:51:16
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TonyRo wrote on 07/26/10 at 19:50:23:
Have you seen the coverage of this line in Aargaard's first Attacking Manual?


No!  I would appreciate your sharing whatever you have.
  

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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #39 - 07/26/10 at 20:02:17
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After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 if i remember correctly Gavrikov recommends here 10.Be3 to avoid the typical ...Qb6. Also Kasparov recommends 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Rg3! (Vasiukov's plan). I hear now that Aagaard also analysed this position in his Attacking manual? It seems that Markovich has to post some convincing analysis here to make as prefer 8...h5 over 8...d5.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #38 - 07/26/10 at 19:50:23
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Markovich wrote on 07/26/10 at 19:35:25:
I've been playing the Scheveningen for several months in CC, via the move order 2...e6 and 5...d6.  This seems the most precise to me, since 3.Bb5+ is avoided and there is no corresponding cost.  I predict that increasing attention will be payed to the Scheveningen, since the dread Keres Attack appears to have been mostly defanged.  Personally I think it's a notable advantage not to have expended a move on ...a6, and the Scheveningen reached directly also avoids a number of dangerous anti-Najdorf systems such as 6.Bg5.

In one of my first attempts with this defense, I lost after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Be2 a6 12.Qd2 Qb6 13.Nb3 Bd7 14.h5 Nxh5 15.Rh1 g6 16.O-O-O Qxf2 17.e5.  At this point I made the mistake of following Pritchet, playing his recommended 17...Qf5? 18.exd6! Qxg5 (what else?) 19.Qxg5 Bh6 20.Qxh6 Rxh6 21.Na4! and Black really has no defense to the incursion of White's pieces on the queenside, not that I could find anyway.

Unfortunately, I decided not to follow the 2001 CC game Sashin-Popov, which continued instead 17...Nxe5! 18.Ne4! Qf5 19.Rh4! (19.Qe3 is considered inadequate for White in the 2nd edition of Experts, p.169, second column under heading "b") 19...Bc6 20.Nxd6+ Bxd6 21.Nd4 Nd3+ 22.Bxd3 Qe5 23.Nxe6!  Here Popov played 23...Qe6? and lost.  However, Black has 23...fxe6! 24.Bxg6+ (the inclusion of the moves 25.Re1 Qg3 doesn't appear to change anything) 24...Kd7 25.Bxh5 Bd5 and I defy anyone to demonstrate White's advantage.  For example:

(a) 26.Bf4 Qf6 27.Bg5 Qe5.

(b) 26.c4 Rc8 27.Kb1 Rxh5 28.Rxh5 Rxc4 and although Black has only one pawn for the exchange, he has no chance of losing that I can see.

(c) 26.Kb1 Rac8 or 26...Rag8.

I will edit this soon to add some more about the Scheveningen, but I post now so as not to lose what I've already written.



Have you seen the coverage of this line in Aargaard's first Attacking Manual?
  
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Papageno
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #37 - 07/26/10 at 19:46:35
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 14:57:05:
I forgot to answer to this:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 Nge7 7. Be3 a6 8. Nb3(...) 8... b5 9. f4 Bb7 10. Qd2 Na5
and Black seems fine

Thanks for bringing this line to my attention. When I looked at this or similar lines long time ago without an engine, the black position didn't impress me much (passive and not too well coordinated). But the fearless machines are now surprisingly positive about Black's chances. I'll have to look into this.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #36 - 07/26/10 at 19:35:25
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I've been playing the Scheveningen for several months in CC, via the move order 2...e6 and 5...d6.  This seems the most precise to me, since 3.Bb5+ is avoided and there is no corresponding cost.  I predict that increasing attention will be payed to the Scheveningen, since the dread Keres Attack appears to have been mostly defanged.  Personally I think it's a notable advantage not to have expended a move on ...a6, and the Scheveningen reached directly also avoids a number of dangerous anti-Najdorf systems such as 6.Bg5.

In one of my first attempts with this defense, I lost after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Be2 a6 12.Qd2 Qb6 13.Nb3 Bd7 14.h5 Nxh5 15.Rh1 g6 16.O-O-O Qxf2 17.e5.  At this point I made the mistake of following Pritchett, playing his recommended 17...Qf5? 18.exd6! Qxg5 (what else?) 19.Qxg5 Bh6 20.Qxh6 Rxh6 21.Na4! and Black really has no defense to the incursion of White's pieces on the queenside, not that I could find anyway.

Unfortunately, I decided not to follow the 2001 CC game Sashin-Popov, which continued instead 17...Nxe5! 18.Ne4! Qf5 19.Rh4! (19.Qe3 is considered inadequate for White in the 2nd edition of Experts, p.169, second column under heading "b") 19...Bc6 20.Nxd6+ Bxd6 21.Nd4 Nd3+ 22.Bxd3 Qe5 23.Nxe6!  Here Popov played 23...Qe6? and lost.  However, Black has 23...fxe6! 24.Bxg6+ (the inclusion of the moves 25.Re1 Qg3 doesn't appear to change anything) 24...Kd7 25.Bxh5 Bd5 and I defy anyone to demonstrate White's advantage.  For example:

(a) 26.Bf4 Qf6 27.Bg5 Qe5.

(b) 26.c4 Rc8 27.Kb1 Rxh5 28.Rxh5 Rxc4 and although Black has only one pawn for the exchange, he has no chance of losing that I can see.

(c) 26.Kb1 Rac8 or 26...Rag8.

Another significant challenge to the Scheveningen is what Pritchett calls the "Suetin Attack," 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.f4 Nc6 7.Be3 Be7 8.Qd1f3 e5 9.Nd4xc6 bxc6 10.f5. 

Pritchett recommends 10...Qa5, citing his game with Psakhis: 11.O-O-O Rb8 12.Bc4 h5 13.Bb3 Ba6 14.h3 h4 15.g4 hxg3 16.Qxg3 Rh7 17.h4 c5.  Here Psakhis played 18.Bg5 and drew.  But much stronger 18.h5!, after which Pritchett gives 18...c4 19.Ba4+ Kf8 20.h6 Qb4 21.hxg7+ Kb8 22.Rxh7 Qxb2+ as equal.  This overlooks both 22.Bb3! and 22.Bb5!, each of which wins brilliantly for White.  After 19.Ba4+ Black has to play 19...Kd8, but it's difficult to believe in Black's game then; e.g. 20.a3.  So Black has some work to do in Pritchett's main line.

A critical alternative for Black is      10...O-O 11.O-O-O Qd8a5 12.Bf1c4 (12.g4 d5 13.exd5 Be7b4 14.g5 e4 15.Qf3f4 Nf6xd5 16.Nc3xd5 cxd5 17.Qf4e5 Qa5xa2 18.c3 Bc8xf5 19.Be3d4 f6 20.gxf6 Bf5g4 21.Rd1e1 1/2-1/2 is a corr game of mine) 12...Ra8b8 13.Bc4b3 d5 14.exd5 Rb8xb3 15.cxb3 cxd5 16.Rd1xd5 Nf6xd5 17.Nc3xd5 Be7d6 18.Rh1d1 Qa5xa2 19.Nd5f6 Kg8h8 20.Rd1xd6 gxf6 21.Be3d2 Qa1+ 22.Kc2 Qg1 23.Rxf6 Qc5+ as played in Kunzelmann - Turicnik, corr 2007.  Actually I have a corr game in progress from this position.  I am not entire sure that Black has enough to draw.  Turicnik managed to draw after 24.Kb1, but White also has 24.Bc3, which appears to me to be stronger.

So I'm not sure that the Suetin Attack is so easy for White to meet.  It's worth noting though that if White tries to reach this via      1.e4 c5 2.Ng1f3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nf3xd4 Ng8f6 5.Nb1c3 d6 6.Bc1e3 Bf8e7 7.f4, Black has 7...O-O 8.Qd1f3 e5! 9.Nd4f5 Bc8xf5 10.exf5 Nb8d7 11.O-O-O Qd8a5 with powerful counterplay.  I have an ongoing corr game with 12.g4 Ra8c8 13.g5 Rc8xc3 14.gxf6 Nd7xf6 15.bxc3 d5 16.fxe5 Qa5xc3 17.Rd1d4 Qc3e1 18.Kc1b2 Be7a3 19.Kb2b3 Qe1a1 20.Kb3xa3 Qa1c3 21.Ka3a4 a6 22.Rd4xd5 Rf8a8 23.exf6 b5 24.Bf1xb5 axb5 25.Ka4xb5 Ra8b8 26.Be3b6 Qc3xf3 27.Rh1d1 Qf3e2 28.Kb5a5 gxf6 29.Rd5d8 Rb8xd8 30.Rd1xd8 Kg8g7 31.a4 Qe2xc2 32.h4 Qc2xf5 33.Ka5a6 Qf5f1 34.Ka6a7 f5 35.a5, an interesting position where I believe that Black is the only one with chances to win.

Once again, I will come back and edit this to add some more about the Scheveningen, but I post now so as not to lose what I've already written.
« Last Edit: 07/26/10 at 20:49:40 by Markovich »  

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Papageno
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #35 - 07/26/10 at 19:33:54
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 16:45:30:
Now there are two major variations:
9. exd5 the recommendation of NCO
9.Bb5 is Gavrikov's proposal from Experts vs the Sicilian


9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxd5 Qxd5 11. Bg2 is a challenge for Black indeed. I like here 11... Qc4 12. Nxc6 bxc6 best.

Either White has to exchange many pieces to get his king free, say after
13. Qe2 Qxe2+ 14. Kxe2 Ba6+ 15. Ke1 Rc8 16. Be3 c5 17. Rd1 Be7 18. h5 Bf6 19. c3 O-O 20. Bf1 Rc6 21. Kd2 Rb8 22. Kc2 Bxf1 23. Rgxf1 Rb7 as in ½-½ (39) Aldrete Lobo,J (2536)-Acevedo Villalba,A (2567)/ICCF email 2006. Admittedly, White has the somewhat better pawn structure but that looked all manageable for Black.

Or we have 13. Be3 Ba6 14. c3 Rd8 15. Qc2 Qb5 16. b3 as in Luther,T (2470)-Theissen,H /Copenhagen 1991, and here I think Black was no worse after 16... Be7N 17. Bf1 Qb7

9. Bb5 Bd7 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxd5 exd5 12. Be3 Be7 13. Qd2 O-O 14. Be2 Nxd4 15. Bxd4 Bxh4 16. O-O-O Re8 17. Bd3 Bf6 18. Bxf6 Qxf6 19. f4 Qb6 20. g5 h5 21. f5 g6 22. fxg6 1/2-1/2 Andersson,G (2200)-Sandbom,J (2384)/ICCF email 2007.

This is the game in my database that matches Gavrikov's analysis best. Black got a draw without problems and he looked pretty much okay all the time during the game.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #34 - 07/26/10 at 19:04:08
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First of all i can play 15...Bf6 and avoid your analysis. Also 15...Nxd4 is an idea but Deep Rybka 4 gives 15...Re8 and if 16.Nf5 d4! leading to a completely equal position.
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #33 - 07/26/10 at 18:39:26
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Ametanoitos, in your 9. Bb5 line with 15...Rc8 I think 17. Bf3? misses the correct idea.  Instead, white should play:

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*
17. Nxh4 Qxh4 18. Rh1 Qe7 (18...Qf6 19. g5 gxh5 20. Rh2! with much pressure down the h-file) 19. Bxh6 Nb4 20. Kb1 Rxc2 21. Qd4
* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
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* and I prefer white, because if 21...gxh6?! 22. Rxh6 f6 23. Rdh1 Qg7 24. Bd3 Nxd3 25. Qxd3 Rc4 26. Rg6.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #32 - 07/26/10 at 16:45:30
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OK, i did some analysis in the critical Keres line:



1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 h6 7. h4 Nc6 8. Rg1 d5 the move Papageno proposes as best. Now there are two major variations:

9. exd5 the recommendation of NCO
9...Nxd5 10. Nxd5 Qxd5 11. Bg2 Qe5+ 12. Be3 and now i wonder if the new idea 12...Qh2 which was proposed by my engine (Fire 1.3) is good for Black. All the other options seem to be slightly in White's favor. Some analysis: 13. Bxc6+ bxc6 14. Nf3 Qb8 15. Qd4 c5 16. Qa4+ Bd7 17. Qe4 Qb4+ 18. Qxb4 cxb4 19. Ne5 Bb5 20.
O-O-O a5 and Black is OK with the two bishops

9.Bb5 is Gavrikov's proposal from Experts vs the Sicilian
9...Bd7
(9... Qd6 is proposed by the engines with the sign of "=")
10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxd5 exd5 12. Be3 Be7 13. Qd2
O-O
and now Gavrikov's proposal seems to be 14. Be2! Bxh4 15. O-O-O "and White can get the pawn back after Bf3" and he continues with 15...Re8 16.Nf5 etc but 15... Rc8 16. Nf5 Be6 17. Bf3 Bf6 with chances for Black against White's king seems to be at least OK! The analysis is very quick and it is just a atert of a discussion. I would apreciate your contribution to make an effective antidote for Black against the fearfull Keres!

  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #31 - 07/26/10 at 16:17:40
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Ndb5?  Eh?

It would surprise me if 6...a6 in the Keres is better than 6...h6; while I recall 6...a6 as having been common in the 1970s, it seems to have been under a cloud since then.  Aside from the path advocated by that repertoire book, I would wonder mainly about 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Be3 b5 9. a3 Bb7 10. Qg4.  I recall Fedorowicz getting an advantage with that against Petrosian in the late '70s; in the '90s Epishin considered it as somewhat better for White, and it appears to have scored very well for White, albeit from not many games.
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #30 - 07/26/10 at 15:28:08
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Papageno wrote on 07/26/10 at 14:19:43:
@TonyRo: I'd think you can enter the Scheveningen with 2... e6 anyway in any of the move orders given above.


Sorry, I just took a quick glance. I'd assumed we were talking about the merits of 2...d6 vs. 2...e6 in reaching the Schev.
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #29 - 07/26/10 at 14:57:05
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I forgot to answer to this:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 Nge7 7. Be3 a6 8. Nb3(8. f4 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 (9. Qxd4 e5) 9... Nc6 (9...
e5 10. fxe5 dxe5 11. Bxe5 Qxd1+ 12. Rxd1 Bxg4) 10. Be3 b5)
8... b5 9. f4 Bb7
10. Qd2 Na5


and Black seems fine
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #28 - 07/26/10 at 14:54:35
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Maybe we can discuss the line with 6.g4 h6 7.h4 (7.f3!? or ?!) 7...Nc6 8.Rg1 d5 and improve over Gavrikov's analysis. When i have the book i'll post his analysis.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 a6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Be3 b5 9. a3 Bb7 10. h4 Nc6 11. h5 Rc8 12. Rh3 Nce5 13. g6 Qf6 is given as equal by Gavrikov. White can play 11.Nxc6 Bxc6 12.Qd4 which is given in the informants as better for White but Van Wely's 12...Rb8! with the idea ...Qb6 seems to give equal chances.

A major flaw of the Nc6 over Nf6 move order is that the Bc4 (Sozin) lines become much more dangerous with the Nc6. If Black has played Nf6 after Bc4 the Na6 idea gives Black a great game.
  
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Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #27 - 07/26/10 at 14:19:43
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I've played around myself for years with different ways of getting into acceptable Scheveningen positions.

A) the mainline Scheveningen (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6):
When it comes to the Keres attack my favorite defense has been 6. g4 h6 7. h4 Nc6 8. Rg1 d5 ever since I saw the corr. game Timmerman-Andersson. This line is interesting and safe enough in my opinion.

@Ametanoitos: When I read Gavrikov in Experts vs. Sicilian I was not sure where he ever gave Black equal chances after 6. g4 a6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. h4 b5 9. a3 Bb7 10. Be3. But you probably found some improvement, maybe after 10... Nc6 11. h5 Rc8!?

B) The Morozevich line without Nf6 (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 ):

Here I do not like the look of 6. g4 a6 7. Be3 Nge7 8. Nb3 b5 9. f4 too much for Black; the black knights just fail to impress. Any ideas what is considered reliable and safe for Black here?

C) The Taimanov/Kan move order (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6  5. Nc3 a6)

Here Black has to be familiar with 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7. Bd3 d5 8. O-O Nf6 9. Re1. But there are enough games of Rublevsky and Mamedyarov to study this line.

The recommendation of Jesus de la Villa is 6.Be3 when 6... Nf6 7. f4 d6 8. Qf3 is getting sharp. Here I thought for awhile that 6... d6 is just o.k. for Black who has to be ready for an English Attack (white Qd2, f3, 0-0-0 etc. that's what de la Villa is aiming at) anyway. However I wonder about 6... d6 7. g4!? when I'm back to the lines mentions above in B)

Thus my preference is still for the traditional move order A), but I maybe have to spend some work on the alternatives again.

@TonyRo: I'd think you can enter the Scheveningen with 2... e6 anyway in any of the move orders given above.
« Last Edit: 07/26/10 at 15:47:10 by Papageno »  
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