Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sicilian Scheveningen (Read 18814 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10086
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #56 - 10/31/10 at 10:21:02
Post Tools
Was Hübner's play against Penrose, Attendorn 1972 suboptimal? He played 12.Bxd7 Bxd7 13.0-0-0 Qa5 14.Kb1 and pawn d5 remained weak.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #55 - 10/31/10 at 07:11:40
Post Tools
In Mark's critical continuation:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 e6 6. Be3 Be7 7. g4


how about the following solution:

7...d5 8. Bb5+ Nbd7 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxd5 exd5

when "forced" seems to be :

11. Qf3 O-O 12. Qxd5 Qa5+ 13. c3 a6 14. Bc4
(14. Qe4 is not so critical according to Rybka 4)
14... Qxd5 15. Bxd5 Nf6 16. Bg2 Nxg4
17. Bf4 Bf6 18. O-O Ne5 =


Are we back in business Mark?  Smiley

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #54 - 08/12/10 at 07:52:05
Post Tools
shush... Aagaard never takes criticism quietly  Smiley

well I believe it isn't really an opening book, no?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #53 - 08/11/10 at 18:00:45
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 07/26/10 at 20:50:23:
Markovich wrote on 07/26/10 at 20:35:25:
I've been playing the Scheveningen for several months in CC, via the move order 2...e6 and 5...d6.  This seems the most precise to me, since 3.Bb5+ is avoided and there is no corresponding cost.  I predict that increasing attention will be payed to the Scheveningen, since the dread Keres Attack appears to have been mostly defanged.  Personally I think it's a notable advantage not to have expended a move on ...a6, and the Scheveningen reached directly also avoids a number of dangerous anti-Najdorf systems such as 6.Bg5.

In one of my first attempts with this defense, I lost after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Be2 a6 12.Qd2 Qb6 13.Nb3 Bd7 14.h5 Nxh5 15.Rh1 g6 16.O-O-O Qxf2 17.e5.  At this point I made the mistake of following Pritchet, playing his recommended 17...Qf5? 18.exd6! Qxg5 (what else?) 19.Qxg5 Bh6 20.Qxh6 Rxh6 21.Na4! and Black really has no defense to the incursion of White's pieces on the queenside, not that I could find anyway.

Unfortunately, I decided not to follow the 2001 CC game Sashin-Popov, which continued instead 17...Nxe5! 18.Ne4! Qf5 19.Rh4! (19.Qe3 is considered inadequate for White in the 2nd edition of Experts, p.169, second column under heading "b") 19...Bc6 20.Nxd6+ Bxd6 21.Nd4 Nd3+ 22.Bxd3 Qe5 23.Nxe6!  Here Popov played 23...Qe6? and lost.  However, Black has 23...fxe6! 24.Bxg6+ (the inclusion of the moves 25.Re1 Qg3 doesn't appear to change anything) 24...Kd7 25.Bxh5 Bd5 and I defy anyone to demonstrate White's advantage.  For example:

(a) 26.Bf4 Qf6 27.Bg5 Qe5.

(b) 26.c4 Rc8 27.Kb1 Rxh5 28.Rxh5 Rxc4 and although Black has only one pawn for the exchange, he has no chance of losing that I can see.

(c) 26.Kb1 Rac8 or 26...Rag8.

I will edit this soon to add some more about the Scheveningen, but I post now so as not to lose what I've already written.



Have you seen the coverage of this line in Aargaard's first Attacking Manual?


I finally have Aagaard's manual in my possession, and to my dismay, he doesn't really treat this line very deeply.  He treats only 17...Qe5 (? - my mark) 18.Kb1 (! - his mark ).  As I pointed out, 18.exd6 (! - my mark) appears to  ensure a significant advantage for White.  He doesn't treat 17...Nxe5 (! - my mark ) at all.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1905
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #52 - 08/08/10 at 09:25:52
Post Tools
There is always the delaying Be7 in favour of Qc7 thing too. Golubev gives a survey in yearbook 79. viz:
5 Nc3 e6 6 Bc4 Nc6 7 Bb3 a6 8 Be3 Qc7 ^ 9 Qe2 Na5 which he gives an ! but doesn't cover in the survey (apparently well known.). What he covers is 9 f4 then b5!? or Na5!?. Seems reasonable and certainly less frightening than the main line Velimirovic. Certainly potentially handy if committed to Nc6 by early move order.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #51 - 08/07/10 at 21:49:42
Post Tools
Well I can't help with the pseudo keres attack but I played a corr game on the LSS server (with engine) which showes the strength of skipping Nc6 against a
pseudo-Velimirovic setup. I transponed into Najdorf territory with 8. ... a6 because I didn't really trusted Pritchett other suggestion (8. ... d5). I achieved an easy equality and white didn't need much to self-destruct.

Markovich's problem (the 6. Be3 Be7 7. g4 stuff) doesn't surface when white plays this move order and I have since then moved on to other ways to reach the scheveningen. So can't help you there I'm afraid.

[Site  "Lechenicher SchachServer"]
[Date "2010.03.09"]
[Round "-"][Result "0-1"]
[WhiteELO "2070"][EventDate "2010.03.03"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4
Nf6 5. Nc3 e6 6. Bc4 Be7 7. Be3 O-O
8. Qe2 a6 9. O-O-O b5 10. Bb3 b4 11. Na4
Qa5 12. f3 Bd7 13. Nb6 Qxb6 14. Nxe6
Qb7 15. Nxf8 Bxf8 16. Bf4 Ne8 17. Kb1
Nc6 18. h4 a5 19. h5 a4 20. Bc4 Ne5
21. Bd5 Bc6 22. Bxc6 Nxc6 23. Qc4 Rc8
24. h6 a3 25. b3 g6 26. Qd3 Nc7 27. c4
bxc3ep 28. Qxc3 Nb5 29. Qd2 d5 30. exd5
Nb4 31. Rc1 Nxd5 32. Be5 Re8 33. Qg5
Qb6 34. Rhd1 Qe3 0-1


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10086
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #50 - 07/28/10 at 03:20:37
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 07/27/10 at 09:18:27:
Quote:
I don't want to have to play 6...Nc6.

Why not?


Ametanoitos wrote on 07/27/10 at 08:11:02:
Sometimes it is not due to the objective evaluation of the position but it has to do with the negative feelings a position brings to you.


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Nc6 7.Bc4 Be7 8.Bb3
-Perhaps more precise than immediately 8.Qe2. Btw after 8.Qe2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 White has two options you haven't mentioned: 10.Nxe6 and 10.Nf3.

8...0-0 9.Qe2
Sorry, no pure Sozin (9.0-0) today; still this is a very common position. So now what? Still 9...d5 ? Black has done extremely well in practice.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #49 - 07/28/10 at 02:14:59
Post Tools
After 6. Be3 Be7 7.g4 is 7..h5!? 8.gxh5 Rxh5 any good? 


 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #48 - 07/27/10 at 15:33:02
Post Tools
For me one of the main appeals of the position after Black's fifth is that it avoids the Sozin and the labyrinthine Velimirovic.  I understand that Black is O.K. there, but it's a pile of stuff to learn.  I'm not sure that I agree that after 6.Be3, 6...Nc6 is the best move.  It is a good move, no doubt; but I rather suspect that 6...Be7 is just as good a move and avoids what I wish to avoid.

Thanks for your comments about Ponomariov's game, by the way.
« Last Edit: 07/27/10 at 20:47:29 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #47 - 07/27/10 at 09:18:27
Post Tools
Quote:
So I'm not sure that the Suetin Attack is so easy for White to meet.  It's worth noting though that if White tries to reach this via      1.e4 c5 2.Ng1f3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nf3xd4 Ng8f6 5.Nb1c3 d6 6.Bc1e3 Bf8e7 7.f4, Black has 7...O-O 8.Qd1f3 e5! 9.Nd4f5 Bc8xf5 10.exf5 Nb8d7 11.O-O-O Qd8a5 with powerful counterplay.  I have an ongoing corr game with 12.g4 Ra8c8 13.g5 Rc8xc3

NCO gives here 13.Bd2! as plus over equal but i see now that 13...d5! leads with best play to a forced draw (maybe!). Also 12.Bc4 Rac8 13.Bb3 Rxc3 is given in NCO as better for White but the engines prefer Black.

Quote:
I don't want to have to play 6...Nc6.

Why not? This looks to be the best move in the position:


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3
(6. Bc4 Be7 7. Bb3 Nc6 8. f4?(8. Be3 {see main line Sozin})
8... Qa5 9. O-O d5
{and Black is better, NCO})
6... Nc6 7. Bc4 Be7 8. Qe2 {Velimirovic attack}
(8. Bb3 {Sozin}
O-O 9. O-O Bd7 {like Korchnoi's plan in the modern Sheveningen (...Nxd4+Bc6)}
10. f4 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 (11... b5?) 12. Qe2 b5! {this idea is strong}
13.Nxb5 Bxb5 14. Qxb5 Nxe4 15. f5 Bf6 16. Qd3 d5 =)
8... O-O 9. O-O-O d5
{this simple idea seems adequate}
10. Bb3
(10. Kb1 Na5)
(10. a3 Bxa3 11. bxa3 Qa5 12.Kb2 dxc4)
(10. exd5 exd5 11. Bb3 Bb4 12. Ndb5 Bxc3 13. Nxc3 d4 14. Ba4 Qb6 15.Bxc6 dxe3)
10... Na5 11. e5 Nd7 12. f4 Nb6 13. g4 Bd7 and the plan Rc8+Bb4 seems strong

Black doesn't have to play ...a6 after all!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #46 - 07/27/10 at 08:11:02
Post Tools
Sometimes it is not due to the objective evaluation of the position but it has to do with the negative feelings a position brings to you. For example after 11.Rg3 ("Vasiukov's plan" according to Kasparov and the reason he doesn't trust Black's position as i understand it when i read his book) Ponomariov now played 11...a6 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.Qf3 (now Kasparov only gives 13...Be7 and 13...e5) 13...Qa5 the new idea that is the first choice of the chess engines. 14.O-O-O Rb8 and now the first variation i looked with my engine was 15.Bxf6 gxf6 16.Qxf6 with a very complicated position, probabaly unclear, in which i'd rather not be Black because i don't feel that my king is really secured even though these positions are quite typical in the sicilian.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #45 - 07/27/10 at 02:22:50
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 23:58:43:
Yes, i know this Ponomariov game, but to be honest i don't trust Black's position after the opening.


You know, with the greatest respect to you and your many outstanding analytical contributions on this board, I'm a whole lot more interested in specific chess ideas than in what one strong player does or doesn't trust.  If you think that 9...h5 isn't viable, I would sincerely like to know why.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #44 - 07/26/10 at 23:58:43
Post Tools
Yes, i know this Ponomariov game, but to be honest i don't trust Black's position after the opening. I just noticed that after 8...d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Nxd5 exd5! is preffered nowdays and this looks much more convincing that the "old" 10...Qxd5 whan i think Black have to play after 11.Bg2 Qe5+ (i dont really trust Papageno's suggestion of 11...Qc4) 12.Be3 Qh2! Deep Rybka 4 doesn't see anything for White here even though i'd be afraid to use this OTB. For now i'd play 10...exd5 for sure!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #43 - 07/26/10 at 23:52:58
Post Tools
(I continue here instead of in my original post to this thread.)

Another system that I consider quite challenging to the Scheveningen, or at least to Black's ambition's of avoiding the Velimirovic Attack, is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Be7 (Black can avoid the following worries with 6...Nc6, but then 7.Bc4 requires that Black be prepared with mountains of Velimirovic information) 7.g4 h6 8.Qe2!?  I must confess to substantial confusion as to why this move is good, but it scores very well, and I had trouble meeting it in an ongoing cc game for ChessPub, versus no less than GM Josep Mercadal Benejam: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Be7 7.g4 h6 8.Qe2 Nc6 9.O-O-O Bd7 10.Rg1 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 e5 12.Be3 Rc8 13.Bd2 a6 14.Kb1 b5 15.a3 Qc7 16.h4 d5 17.exd5 b4 18.d6 Bxd6 19.axb4 Nd5 20.Bg2 Nxb4.  The game has gone a couple of moves beyond this; he is better; I have some chances.  Anyway, I'm unhappy with the opening and confused about the right method of responding to White's idea.  I've have looked for easy answers to the position after 8.Qe2 and so far found none.  I don't want to have to play 6...Nc6.

In an ongoing casual cc game, I tried 1.e4 c5 2.Ng1f3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nf3xd4 Ng8f6 5.Nb1c3 d6 6.Bc1e3 Bf8e7 7.g4 h5.  I am quite unhappy with the results after 8.gxh5 Rh8xh5 9.Bf1e2 Rh5h3 10.Rh1g1 g6 11.Qd1d2 Nb8c6 12.O-O-O a6 13.f4 Qd8c7 14.Nd4f3 b5 15.Nf3g5 Rh3h8 16.Be2f3 b4 17.e5! dxe5 (17...bxc3 ultimately fails).  It'll be a miracle if I hold the draw.  I kept considering Nc6xd4, but it always looked as if it left him with too much of the center.  Now I'm looking at that d--ned knight on g5.

  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #42 - 07/26/10 at 23:30:19
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 21:02:17:
After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 if i remember correctly Gavrikov recommends here 10.Be3 to avoid the typical ...Qb6. Also Kasparov recommends 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Rg3! (Vasiukov's plan). I hear now that Aagaard also analysed this position in his Attacking manual? It seems that Markovich has to post some convincing analysis here to make as prefer 8...h5 over 8...d5.
(My emphasis.)

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 8...h5 is a better move than 8...d5, nor do I even know whether that is the case.  What I am fairly sure of is that 8...h5 in principle is a more ambitious move than 8...d5, and so its theory interests me more right now than that of 8...d5 does.  I do notice that 8...h5 occurred in Fier-Ponomariov, Spain 2009, a game featured in last September's update, which would lead me to suppose that 8...h5 isn't in total disrepute.

Please also look back and see the remarks on the Suetin Attack that I added since your latest post.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1905
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #41 - 07/26/10 at 22:53:28
Post Tools
Another question after: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 Nge7 7. Be3 a6 8. Nb3 b5 etc. What if white just goes Qd2/f3 (when he has to) /o-o-o etc?

Black maybe fine but its hardly entirely obvious quite what he's doing.

The whole thing is probably fine but just feels a little artificial to me, so I've been interested in 6 .. h6 there (as in Karpov - Kasparov). Lets you dodge some of the main lines by delaying Nf6 a bit and is at least different. Do have to be really quite careful not to end in a bad English attack if white goes Be3/f3 etc though.
(There's an old thread on here about 6 .. h6 7 Be3 Be7!?.).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #40 - 07/26/10 at 21:51:16
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 07/26/10 at 20:50:23:
Have you seen the coverage of this line in Aargaard's first Attacking Manual?


No!  I would appreciate your sharing whatever you have.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #39 - 07/26/10 at 21:02:17
Post Tools
After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 if i remember correctly Gavrikov recommends here 10.Be3 to avoid the typical ...Qb6. Also Kasparov recommends 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Rg3! (Vasiukov's plan). I hear now that Aagaard also analysed this position in his Attacking manual? It seems that Markovich has to post some convincing analysis here to make as prefer 8...h5 over 8...d5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1678
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #38 - 07/26/10 at 20:50:23
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 07/26/10 at 20:35:25:
I've been playing the Scheveningen for several months in CC, via the move order 2...e6 and 5...d6.  This seems the most precise to me, since 3.Bb5+ is avoided and there is no corresponding cost.  I predict that increasing attention will be payed to the Scheveningen, since the dread Keres Attack appears to have been mostly defanged.  Personally I think it's a notable advantage not to have expended a move on ...a6, and the Scheveningen reached directly also avoids a number of dangerous anti-Najdorf systems such as 6.Bg5.

In one of my first attempts with this defense, I lost after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Be2 a6 12.Qd2 Qb6 13.Nb3 Bd7 14.h5 Nxh5 15.Rh1 g6 16.O-O-O Qxf2 17.e5.  At this point I made the mistake of following Pritchet, playing his recommended 17...Qf5? 18.exd6! Qxg5 (what else?) 19.Qxg5 Bh6 20.Qxh6 Rxh6 21.Na4! and Black really has no defense to the incursion of White's pieces on the queenside, not that I could find anyway.

Unfortunately, I decided not to follow the 2001 CC game Sashin-Popov, which continued instead 17...Nxe5! 18.Ne4! Qf5 19.Rh4! (19.Qe3 is considered inadequate for White in the 2nd edition of Experts, p.169, second column under heading "b") 19...Bc6 20.Nxd6+ Bxd6 21.Nd4 Nd3+ 22.Bxd3 Qe5 23.Nxe6!  Here Popov played 23...Qe6? and lost.  However, Black has 23...fxe6! 24.Bxg6+ (the inclusion of the moves 25.Re1 Qg3 doesn't appear to change anything) 24...Kd7 25.Bxh5 Bd5 and I defy anyone to demonstrate White's advantage.  For example:

(a) 26.Bf4 Qf6 27.Bg5 Qe5.

(b) 26.c4 Rc8 27.Kb1 Rxh5 28.Rxh5 Rxc4 and although Black has only one pawn for the exchange, he has no chance of losing that I can see.

(c) 26.Kb1 Rac8 or 26...Rag8.

I will edit this soon to add some more about the Scheveningen, but I post now so as not to lose what I've already written.



Have you seen the coverage of this line in Aargaard's first Attacking Manual?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #37 - 07/26/10 at 20:46:35
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 15:57:05:
I forgot to answer to this:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 Nge7 7. Be3 a6 8. Nb3(...) 8... b5 9. f4 Bb7 10. Qd2 Na5
and Black seems fine

Thanks for bringing this line to my attention. When I looked at this or similar lines long time ago without an engine, the black position didn't impress me much (passive and not too well coordinated). But the fearless machines are now surprisingly positive about Black's chances. I'll have to look into this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #36 - 07/26/10 at 20:35:25
Post Tools
I've been playing the Scheveningen for several months in CC, via the move order 2...e6 and 5...d6.  This seems the most precise to me, since 3.Bb5+ is avoided and there is no corresponding cost.  I predict that increasing attention will be payed to the Scheveningen, since the dread Keres Attack appears to have been mostly defanged.  Personally I think it's a notable advantage not to have expended a move on ...a6, and the Scheveningen reached directly also avoids a number of dangerous anti-Najdorf systems such as 6.Bg5.

In one of my first attempts with this defense, I lost after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gxh5 Nxh5 10.Bg5 Nf6 11.Be2 a6 12.Qd2 Qb6 13.Nb3 Bd7 14.h5 Nxh5 15.Rh1 g6 16.O-O-O Qxf2 17.e5.  At this point I made the mistake of following Pritchett, playing his recommended 17...Qf5? 18.exd6! Qxg5 (what else?) 19.Qxg5 Bh6 20.Qxh6 Rxh6 21.Na4! and Black really has no defense to the incursion of White's pieces on the queenside, not that I could find anyway.

Unfortunately, I decided not to follow the 2001 CC game Sashin-Popov, which continued instead 17...Nxe5! 18.Ne4! Qf5 19.Rh4! (19.Qe3 is considered inadequate for White in the 2nd edition of Experts, p.169, second column under heading "b") 19...Bc6 20.Nxd6+ Bxd6 21.Nd4 Nd3+ 22.Bxd3 Qe5 23.Nxe6!  Here Popov played 23...Qe6? and lost.  However, Black has 23...fxe6! 24.Bxg6+ (the inclusion of the moves 25.Re1 Qg3 doesn't appear to change anything) 24...Kd7 25.Bxh5 Bd5 and I defy anyone to demonstrate White's advantage.  For example:

(a) 26.Bf4 Qf6 27.Bg5 Qe5.

(b) 26.c4 Rc8 27.Kb1 Rxh5 28.Rxh5 Rxc4 and although Black has only one pawn for the exchange, he has no chance of losing that I can see.

(c) 26.Kb1 Rac8 or 26...Rag8.

Another significant challenge to the Scheveningen is what Pritchett calls the "Suetin Attack," 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.f4 Nc6 7.Be3 Be7 8.Qd1f3 e5 9.Nd4xc6 bxc6 10.f5. 

Pritchett recommends 10...Qa5, citing his game with Psakhis: 11.O-O-O Rb8 12.Bc4 h5 13.Bb3 Ba6 14.h3 h4 15.g4 hxg3 16.Qxg3 Rh7 17.h4 c5.  Here Psakhis played 18.Bg5 and drew.  But much stronger 18.h5!, after which Pritchett gives 18...c4 19.Ba4+ Kf8 20.h6 Qb4 21.hxg7+ Kb8 22.Rxh7 Qxb2+ as equal.  This overlooks both 22.Bb3! and 22.Bb5!, each of which wins brilliantly for White.  After 19.Ba4+ Black has to play 19...Kd8, but it's difficult to believe in Black's game then; e.g. 20.a3.  So Black has some work to do in Pritchett's main line.

A critical alternative for Black is      10...O-O 11.O-O-O Qd8a5 12.Bf1c4 (12.g4 d5 13.exd5 Be7b4 14.g5 e4 15.Qf3f4 Nf6xd5 16.Nc3xd5 cxd5 17.Qf4e5 Qa5xa2 18.c3 Bc8xf5 19.Be3d4 f6 20.gxf6 Bf5g4 21.Rd1e1 1/2-1/2 is a corr game of mine) 12...Ra8b8 13.Bc4b3 d5 14.exd5 Rb8xb3 15.cxb3 cxd5 16.Rd1xd5 Nf6xd5 17.Nc3xd5 Be7d6 18.Rh1d1 Qa5xa2 19.Nd5f6 Kg8h8 20.Rd1xd6 gxf6 21.Be3d2 Qa1+ 22.Kc2 Qg1 23.Rxf6 Qc5+ as played in Kunzelmann - Turicnik, corr 2007.  Actually I have a corr game in progress from this position.  I am not entire sure that Black has enough to draw.  Turicnik managed to draw after 24.Kb1, but White also has 24.Bc3, which appears to me to be stronger.

So I'm not sure that the Suetin Attack is so easy for White to meet.  It's worth noting though that if White tries to reach this via      1.e4 c5 2.Ng1f3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nf3xd4 Ng8f6 5.Nb1c3 d6 6.Bc1e3 Bf8e7 7.f4, Black has 7...O-O 8.Qd1f3 e5! 9.Nd4f5 Bc8xf5 10.exf5 Nb8d7 11.O-O-O Qd8a5 with powerful counterplay.  I have an ongoing corr game with 12.g4 Ra8c8 13.g5 Rc8xc3 14.gxf6 Nd7xf6 15.bxc3 d5 16.fxe5 Qa5xc3 17.Rd1d4 Qc3e1 18.Kc1b2 Be7a3 19.Kb2b3 Qe1a1 20.Kb3xa3 Qa1c3 21.Ka3a4 a6 22.Rd4xd5 Rf8a8 23.exf6 b5 24.Bf1xb5 axb5 25.Ka4xb5 Ra8b8 26.Be3b6 Qc3xf3 27.Rh1d1 Qf3e2 28.Kb5a5 gxf6 29.Rd5d8 Rb8xd8 30.Rd1xd8 Kg8g7 31.a4 Qe2xc2 32.h4 Qc2xf5 33.Ka5a6 Qf5f1 34.Ka6a7 f5 35.a5, an interesting position where I believe that Black is the only one with chances to win.

Once again, I will come back and edit this to add some more about the Scheveningen, but I post now so as not to lose what I've already written.
« Last Edit: 07/26/10 at 21:49:40 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #35 - 07/26/10 at 20:33:54
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 17:45:30:
Now there are two major variations:
9. exd5 the recommendation of NCO
9.Bb5 is Gavrikov's proposal from Experts vs the Sicilian


9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxd5 Qxd5 11. Bg2 is a challenge for Black indeed. I like here 11... Qc4 12. Nxc6 bxc6 best.

Either White has to exchange many pieces to get his king free, say after
13. Qe2 Qxe2+ 14. Kxe2 Ba6+ 15. Ke1 Rc8 16. Be3 c5 17. Rd1 Be7 18. h5 Bf6 19. c3 O-O 20. Bf1 Rc6 21. Kd2 Rb8 22. Kc2 Bxf1 23. Rgxf1 Rb7 as in ½-½ (39) Aldrete Lobo,J (2536)-Acevedo Villalba,A (2567)/ICCF email 2006. Admittedly, White has the somewhat better pawn structure but that looked all manageable for Black.

Or we have 13. Be3 Ba6 14. c3 Rd8 15. Qc2 Qb5 16. b3 as in Luther,T (2470)-Theissen,H /Copenhagen 1991, and here I think Black was no worse after 16... Be7N 17. Bf1 Qb7

9. Bb5 Bd7 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxd5 exd5 12. Be3 Be7 13. Qd2 O-O 14. Be2 Nxd4 15. Bxd4 Bxh4 16. O-O-O Re8 17. Bd3 Bf6 18. Bxf6 Qxf6 19. f4 Qb6 20. g5 h5 21. f5 g6 22. fxg6 1/2-1/2 Andersson,G (2200)-Sandbom,J (2384)/ICCF email 2007.

This is the game in my database that matches Gavrikov's analysis best. Black got a draw without problems and he looked pretty much okay all the time during the game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #34 - 07/26/10 at 20:04:08
Post Tools
First of all i can play 15...Bf6 and avoid your analysis. Also 15...Nxd4 is an idea but Deep Rybka 4 gives 15...Re8 and if 16.Nf5 d4! leading to a completely equal position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FrankieJay
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


USCF 2357

Posts: 35
Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 10/20/09
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #33 - 07/26/10 at 19:39:26
Post Tools
Ametanoitos, in your 9. Bb5 line with 15...Rc8 I think 17. Bf3? misses the correct idea.  Instead, white should play:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
17. Nxh4 Qxh4 18. Rh1 Qe7 (18...Qf6 19. g5 gxh5 20. Rh2! with much pressure down the h-file) 19. Bxh6 Nb4 20. Kb1 Rxc2 21. Qd4
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* and I prefer white, because if 21...gxh6?! 22. Rxh6 f6 23. Rdh1 Qg7 24. Bd3 Nxd3 25. Qxd3 Rc4 26. Rg6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #32 - 07/26/10 at 17:45:30
Post Tools
OK, i did some analysis in the critical Keres line:



1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 h6 7. h4 Nc6 8. Rg1 d5 the move Papageno proposes as best. Now there are two major variations:

9. exd5 the recommendation of NCO
9...Nxd5 10. Nxd5 Qxd5 11. Bg2 Qe5+ 12. Be3 and now i wonder if the new idea 12...Qh2 which was proposed by my engine (Fire 1.3) is good for Black. All the other options seem to be slightly in White's favor. Some analysis: 13. Bxc6+ bxc6 14. Nf3 Qb8 15. Qd4 c5 16. Qa4+ Bd7 17. Qe4 Qb4+ 18. Qxb4 cxb4 19. Ne5 Bb5 20.
O-O-O a5 and Black is OK with the two bishops

9.Bb5 is Gavrikov's proposal from Experts vs the Sicilian
9...Bd7
(9... Qd6 is proposed by the engines with the sign of "=")
10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxd5 exd5 12. Be3 Be7 13. Qd2
O-O
and now Gavrikov's proposal seems to be 14. Be2! Bxh4 15. O-O-O "and White can get the pawn back after Bf3" and he continues with 15...Re8 16.Nf5 etc but 15... Rc8 16. Nf5 Be6 17. Bf3 Bf6 with chances for Black against White's king seems to be at least OK! The analysis is very quick and it is just a atert of a discussion. I would apreciate your contribution to make an effective antidote for Black against the fearfull Keres!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4145
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #31 - 07/26/10 at 17:17:40
Post Tools
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Ndb5?  Eh?

It would surprise me if 6...a6 in the Keres is better than 6...h6; while I recall 6...a6 as having been common in the 1970s, it seems to have been under a cloud since then.  Aside from the path advocated by that repertoire book, I would wonder mainly about 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Be3 b5 9. a3 Bb7 10. Qg4.  I recall Fedorowicz getting an advantage with that against Petrosian in the late '70s; in the '90s Epishin considered it as somewhat better for White, and it appears to have scored very well for White, albeit from not many games.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1678
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #30 - 07/26/10 at 16:28:08
Post Tools
Papageno wrote on 07/26/10 at 15:19:43:
@TonyRo: I'd think you can enter the Scheveningen with 2... e6 anyway in any of the move orders given above.


Sorry, I just took a quick glance. I'd assumed we were talking about the merits of 2...d6 vs. 2...e6 in reaching the Schev.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #29 - 07/26/10 at 15:57:05
Post Tools
I forgot to answer to this:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 Nge7 7. Be3 a6 8. Nb3(8. f4 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 (9. Qxd4 e5) 9... Nc6 (9...
e5 10. fxe5 dxe5 11. Bxe5 Qxd1+ 12. Rxd1 Bxg4) 10. Be3 b5)
8... b5 9. f4 Bb7
10. Qd2 Na5


and Black seems fine
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #28 - 07/26/10 at 15:54:35
Post Tools
Maybe we can discuss the line with 6.g4 h6 7.h4 (7.f3!? or ?!) 7...Nc6 8.Rg1 d5 and improve over Gavrikov's analysis. When i have the book i'll post his analysis.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 a6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Be3 b5 9. a3 Bb7 10. h4 Nc6 11. h5 Rc8 12. Rh3 Nce5 13. g6 Qf6 is given as equal by Gavrikov. White can play 11.Nxc6 Bxc6 12.Qd4 which is given in the informants as better for White but Van Wely's 12...Rb8! with the idea ...Qb6 seems to give equal chances.

A major flaw of the Nc6 over Nf6 move order is that the Bc4 (Sozin) lines become much more dangerous with the Nc6. If Black has played Nf6 after Bc4 the Na6 idea gives Black a great game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #27 - 07/26/10 at 15:19:43
Post Tools
I've played around myself for years with different ways of getting into acceptable Scheveningen positions.

A) the mainline Scheveningen (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6):
When it comes to the Keres attack my favorite defense has been 6. g4 h6 7. h4 Nc6 8. Rg1 d5 ever since I saw the corr. game Timmerman-Andersson. This line is interesting and safe enough in my opinion.

@Ametanoitos: When I read Gavrikov in Experts vs. Sicilian I was not sure where he ever gave Black equal chances after 6. g4 a6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. h4 b5 9. a3 Bb7 10. Be3. But you probably found some improvement, maybe after 10... Nc6 11. h5 Rc8!?

B) The Morozevich line without Nf6 (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 ):

Here I do not like the look of 6. g4 a6 7. Be3 Nge7 8. Nb3 b5 9. f4 too much for Black; the black knights just fail to impress. Any ideas what is considered reliable and safe for Black here?

C) The Taimanov/Kan move order (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6  5. Nc3 a6)

Here Black has to be familiar with 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7. Bd3 d5 8. O-O Nf6 9. Re1. But there are enough games of Rublevsky and Mamedyarov to study this line.

The recommendation of Jesus de la Villa is 6.Be3 when 6... Nf6 7. f4 d6 8. Qf3 is getting sharp. Here I thought for awhile that 6... d6 is just o.k. for Black who has to be ready for an English Attack (white Qd2, f3, 0-0-0 etc. that's what de la Villa is aiming at) anyway. However I wonder about 6... d6 7. g4!? when I'm back to the lines mentions above in B)

Thus my preference is still for the traditional move order A), but I maybe have to spend some work on the alternatives again.

@TonyRo: I'd think you can enter the Scheveningen with 2... e6 anyway in any of the move orders given above.
« Last Edit: 07/26/10 at 16:47:10 by Papageno »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1678
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #26 - 07/26/10 at 12:19:31
Post Tools
I'd certainly consider the ...e6 route. I'd say it's the most annoying to deal with when you're an Anti-Sicilian or a Bb5 player.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #25 - 07/26/10 at 12:02:20
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/10 at 09:50:21:
I have the Sev in my repertoire and i'm very happy with it. My sources are Pritchet, San Luis and Kasparov's modern chess series. I have noticed that there is a strong opinion in playing the Sev via a move order without Nf6: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6! 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3(i had a game with 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Bd3!? as it was discussed here in chesspub and after 7...Nxd4 8.e5 Qa5! i won easily)
5...d6 and now 6.Ndb5 and 6.g4 are 2 lines that Black has to know but both are less dangerous than the Keres. I have to notice here that this move order was used by the great Korchnoi and this is what Morozevic used in the San Luis 2005.

In the Keres i feel that only 6...a6! leads to equality but there is a lot of side-theory for example
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 (i have noticed that 5...Bb4 is not so bad and it's a good surprize weapon! Just check tha analysis of Experts vs the Sicilian using Rybka or Fire!) and now 6.g4! a6! 7.Be3!? e5 8.Nf5 and 7.h3 are two Najdorf lines that require lots of study! Using Gavrikov's article in Experts vs the Sicilian, Black equailises in the main line of the Keres after 6...a6 7.g5 etc. But looking at Gavrikov's analysis i really cannot see how Black can equalise after 6...h6. Kasparov also expresses the same opinion in his latest books.


Mamedyarov uses 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 d6 to get to the Scheveningen. Seem to me more a case of which lines you prefer then of which route is the strongest.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #24 - 07/26/10 at 10:09:13
Post Tools
Another question is: after 6...h6 cannot White transpose to the english attack with 7.f3? I don't play ...h6 lines in the English attack. I have analysed 7.f3 a6 8.Be3 d5N but i don't know if this idea is completely adequate.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1414
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #23 - 07/26/10 at 09:50:21
Post Tools
I have the Sev in my repertoire and i'm very happy with it. My sources are Pritchet, San Luis and Kasparov's modern chess series. I have noticed that there is a strong opinion in playing the Sev via a move order without Nf6: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6! 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3(i had a game with 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Bd3!? as it was discussed here in chesspub and after 7...Nxd4 8.e5 Qa5! i won easily)
5...d6 and now 6.Ndb5 and 6.g4 are 2 lines that Black has to know but both are less dangerous than the Keres. I have to notice here that this move order was used by the great Korchnoi and this is what Morozevic used in the San Luis 2005.

In the Keres i feel that only 6...a6! leads to equality but there is a lot of side-theory for example
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 (i have noticed that 5...Bb4 is not so bad and it's a good surprize weapon! Just check tha analysis of Experts vs the Sicilian using Rybka or Fire!) and now 6.g4! a6! 7.Be3!? e5 8.Nf5 and 7.h3 are two Najdorf lines that require lots of study! Using Gavrikov's article in Experts vs the Sicilian, Black equailises in the main line of the Keres after 6...a6 7.g5 etc. But looking at Gavrikov's analysis i really cannot see how Black can equalise after 6...h6. Kasparov also expresses the same opinion in his latest books.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zen_learner
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Be nice to others!

Posts: 32
Joined: 06/20/10
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #22 - 06/20/10 at 19:08:41
Post Tools
There are 2 problems in the Scheveningen

1) If you want to reply 6...e5, then 6.Be3 Be7 7.g4 nullifies that option

2) 6.g4 h6 7.h3 is hard to meet. Pritchett recommendations are both difficult OTB and if you analyse a bit, not so clear cut.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #21 - 03/22/10 at 03:11:41
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 03/21/10 at 23:21:25:
8..Nc6 leads to an equal position, not a better one. 

Whether you play that or a Najdorf is a matter of taste.  You don't need to fret over either. 

A "serious theoretical mistake" to transpose to the Najdorf?  Bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?      
   




No, I don't.  Black's game looks easy to me in the Scheveningen 6.Bg5.  Not in the Najdorf 6.Bg5. 

In a match, Black's going to play ...Nxe4 all the time, and laugh at White. 

In a Swiss, 8...Nc6 may be equal, but not dead equal.  "z" in my much-maligned schema, which I'll take any time as Black.  It might even be closer to "zb".
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #20 - 03/21/10 at 23:21:25
Post Tools
8..Nc6 leads to an equal position, not a better one. 

Whether you play that or a Najdorf is a matter of taste.  You don't need to fret over either. 

A "serious theoretical mistake" to transpose to the Najdorf?  Bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?      
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4145
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #19 - 03/21/10 at 20:08:36
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 03/21/10 at 19:24:57:
And White scores quite poorly in the 30+ games that I have in my database with the position after 8...Nc6.


And what about the rating peformance?  I have the impression that White tends to be massively outrated.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #18 - 03/21/10 at 19:24:57
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 03/20/10 at 20:25:55:
So most precise might be 6.Bg5 Be7 7.f4 h6 8.Bh4 Nc6 and only after 9.Qd2 Nxe4; Black wins a pawn but the endgame has bishops of opposite colours. Black still gets best of two worlds as d2 is the ideal square for the queen in the RR.


And White scores quite poorly in the 30+ games that I have in my database with the position after 8...Nc6.  Throw in Black's 8...Nxe4 option, and I really can't see any reason to fret over 6.Bg5 against the Scheveningen.  Given the strength of Black's position there, I would call it a serious theoretical mistake to transpose into a Rauzer or a 6.Bg5 Najdorf. 

The Keres Attack on the other hand is the line for which one must have an answer.  I would not trust anything against it besides 6...h6, and after 7.Rg1 Nc6 8.h4 I have both 9...h5 and 9...d5 in my notes, both of which have been played recently by strong Blacks, with good results.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6896
Joined: 06/16/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #17 - 03/21/10 at 16:21:33
Post Tools
I've tried 7..h6 twice recently and got hammered.  I definitely am looking for something else there.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10086
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #16 - 03/21/10 at 11:40:46
Post Tools
Neither have I; that's why I did not mention it. Moreover there is a practical reason. We were assuming that Black plays against a weaker opponent. Then playing for a win without risk is usually preferable to the complications of the Najdorf.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #15 - 03/21/10 at 03:16:22
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 03/20/10 at 20:25:55:
So most precise might be 6.Bg5 Be7 7.f4 h6 8.Bh4 Nc6 and only after 9.Qd2 Nxe4; Black wins a pawn but the endgame has bishops of opposite colours. Black still gets best of two worlds as d2 is the ideal square for the queen in the RR.


Yes, Pritchett suggests 8..Nc6 as a try if Black wants more.  9.Qd2 is an error here.  In practice, White chooses among 9.Qd3 g5!? 10.fxg5 Ng4, 9.Nxc6, 9.Bf2 and 9.Bb5.  If you don't like the Najdorf, then 8..Nc6 is another way to try to keep some life in the position. 

If you want to play the Najdorf instead, I prefer to do it a move earlier, with 7..a6, as I don't care for a Najdorf with an early ..h6.  But 7..h6 8.Bh4 a6 is also a try, which can lead to, among other things, the Gothenburg Variation.  My sense is that these 7..h6 lines aren't as well thought of these days from a theoretical perspective, but I confess that I haven't kept up.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10086
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #14 - 03/20/10 at 20:25:55
Post Tools
So most precise might be 6.Bg5 Be7 7.f4 h6 8.Bh4 Nc6 and only after 9.Qd2 Nxe4; Black wins a pawn but the endgame has bishops of opposite colours. Black still gets best of two worlds as d2 is the ideal square for the queen in the RR.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #13 - 03/20/10 at 14:55:30
Post Tools
Right, and TN's Line B is exactly the point I was trying to make.  That ..h6,..Ne4 trick liquidates into an equal endgame, which is fine if you're paired up and are satisfied with a draw.

But you generally don't see 6.Bg5 from higher-rated players.  You see it from lower-rated players whom you've got to beat. 

And that leaves you with three choices:  (1) you can play TN's line B and hope to outplay them in an equal endgame, (2) you can play 7..Nc6 8.Qd2 with a Richter-Rauzer, or, if you really need to win, (3) you can play 7..a6 8.Qf3 with a Najdorf.

And, if you're going to have the Najdorf in your arsenal in order to meet 6.Bg5, you then have to decide whether you might just as well just enter the Scheveningen from the Najdorf in order to avoid the Keres Attack.  Of course, you may decide to stick with 2..e6 because you prefer to avoid the 3.Bb5+ line or because you want to play a Modern Scheveningen without an early ..a6, but if you want to win against lower-rated players who trot out 6.Bg5, then it pays to know a little about the Najdorf and have a line or two in your repertoire.  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4145
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #12 - 03/20/10 at 14:14:25
Post Tools
@TN

12. Nb5 in variation B. 

In the Keres, I don't know why 7...Nc6 8. Rg1 h5 is "the main line," rather than 7...Nc6 8. Rg1 d5 or 7...Be7 8. Rg1 d5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #11 - 03/20/10 at 07:41:41
Post Tools
TN wrote on 03/20/10 at 06:27:52:
@Schaakhamster

Agreed. Then the next key question is, after Be3 and f4, when and whether to play Kh1, a4, Qe1 and Bf3 for White. Generally speaking most of the key lines involve White playing a4 against ...a6 to prevent queenside expansion with ...b5 and Kh1 is played to avoid potential tactics on the a7-g1 diagonal, but then White must decide between Bf3 followed usually by kingside play with f5 or g4-g5, or a quick Qe1-g3 with the intention of breaking with e5. Jansa's strategy book explains all of this more clearly than I can in a single post, especially in regard to Black's ideas.



And black can also choose to play without a6 when white has to pay attention because there Qe1 isn't as strong as against a6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3316
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #10 - 03/20/10 at 06:27:52
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 03/20/10 at 04:16:34:
Markovich wrote on 03/19/10 at 20:23:26:
Schaakhamster wrote on 03/19/10 at 13:07:23:
After some carefull consideration: if you are willing to risk the Keres then you could wait quite a bit before playing a6 or not.

To me the most flexible move order seems 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4  cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be2 Be7 7. O-O O-O. Be7 and O-O are moves that will be played in 99% of the games while whether to play a6 or where to develop the b8-knight depends on your approach. Theoretical it doesn't really change much but it might keep your opponent guessing. Basicly it is just about first playing the moves you and your opponent know you are going to play.    



Yeah, and when you throw in (a) that you avoid the Najdorf 6.Bg5 and some other sharp anti-Najdorf systems, and (b) that you avoid 3.Bb5+ and (c) that 2...e6 has fewer problems with other anti-Sicilians, this move is for choice.  But the whole thing depends on your having a good answer to the Keres attack.


Yes, agree, but what do you do about 6.Bg5 if you want to win? 

If you're going to play ..a6 in the next couple of moves, then you haven't really avoided the 6.Bg5 Najdorf.  Wink 


@LeeRoth

The move 6.Bg5 is ineffective against the Scheveningen: 6.Bg5 Be7 and now White has two options: Playing as in the Classical Variation with 7.Qd2, or playing in 6.Bg5 Najdorf fashion with 7.f4.

a) 7.Qd2 a6 8.f3 b5 9.h4 Bb7 10.0-0-0 Nbd7 11.Kb1 Rc8 12.g4 Nb6 13.Bd3 Nc4 with at least equality for Black in Mazi-Parligras, Antalya 2004.
b) 7.f4 isn't any better due to 7...h6! 8.Bh4? (8.Bf6 is necessary, but Black must be a bit better with the bishop pair and central majority) 8...Ne4! 9.Be7 Nc3 10.Bd8 Nd1 11.Rd1 Kd8 and Black is up a pawn.

@Schaakhamster

Agreed. Then the next key question is, after Be3 and f4, when and whether to play Kh1, a4, Qe1 and Bf3 for White. Generally speaking most of the key lines involve White playing a4 against ...a6 to prevent queenside expansion with ...b5 and Kh1 is played to avoid potential tactics on the a7-g1 diagonal, but then White must decide between Bf3 followed usually by kingside play with f5 or g4-g5, or a quick Qe1-g3 with the intention of breaking with e5. Jansa's strategy book explains all of this more clearly than I can in a single post, especially in regard to Black's ideas.

@Markovich

Agreed, and in my opinion the main line with 6...h6 7.h4 (the most common move) Nc6 8.Rg1 h5 9.gh5 (9.g5 Ng4) 9...Nh5 (even 9...Rh5!? looks okay for Black) 10.Bg5 Nf6 and I don't think Black is worse here, although I admit I haven't looked at the theory of this line in some time.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zatara
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 422
Location: Virginia
Joined: 02/26/08
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #9 - 03/20/10 at 05:15:15
Post Tools
Hi all,
What is a good reply to keres attack?  I guess 6...h6 can be agreed on?!?
thanks,
Zatara
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #8 - 03/20/10 at 04:16:34
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 03/19/10 at 20:23:26:
Schaakhamster wrote on 03/19/10 at 13:07:23:
After some carefull consideration: if you are willing to risk the Keres then you could wait quite a bit before playing a6 or not.

To me the most flexible move order seems 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4  cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be2 Be7 7. O-O O-O. Be7 and O-O are moves that will be played in 99% of the games while whether to play a6 or where to develop the b8-knight depends on your approach. Theoretical it doesn't really change much but it might keep your opponent guessing. Basicly it is just about first playing the moves you and your opponent know you are going to play.    



Yeah, and when you throw in (a) that you avoid the Najdorf 6.Bg5 and some other sharp anti-Najdorf systems, and (b) that you avoid 3.Bb5+ and (c) that 2...e6 has fewer problems with other anti-Sicilians, this move is for choice.  But the whole thing depends on your having a good answer to the Keres attack.


Yes, agree, but what do you do about 6.Bg5 if you want to win? 

If you're going to play ..a6 in the next couple of moves, then you haven't really avoided the 6.Bg5 Najdorf.  Wink 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #7 - 03/19/10 at 20:23:26
Post Tools
Schaakhamster wrote on 03/19/10 at 13:07:23:
After some carefull consideration: if you are willing to risk the Keres then you could wait quite a bit before playing a6 or not.

To me the most flexible move order seems 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4  cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be2 Be7 7. O-O O-O. Be7 and O-O are moves that will be played in 99% of the games while whether to play a6 or where to develop the b8-knight depends on your approach. Theoretical it doesn't really change much but it might keep your opponent guessing. Basicly it is just about first playing the moves you and your opponent know you are going to play.    



Yeah, and when you throw in (a) that you avoid the Najdorf 6.Bg5 and some other sharp anti-Najdorf systems, and (b) that you avoid 3.Bb5+ and (c) that 2...e6 has fewer problems with other anti-Sicilians, this move is for choice.  But the whole thing depends on your having a good answer to the Keres attack.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #6 - 03/19/10 at 19:33:06
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/19/10 at 17:21:58:
This discussion was recently and extensively covered in the next thread over.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1268081684;start=0;action=thre...


Not really.  Over their they mostly discuss the pluses and minuses of the attempted transposition from the Taimanov.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6896
Joined: 06/16/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #5 - 03/19/10 at 17:21:58
Post Tools
This discussion was recently and extensively covered in the next thread over.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1268081684;start=0;action=thre...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #4 - 03/19/10 at 13:07:23
Post Tools
After some carefull consideration: if you are willing to risk the Keres then you could wait quite a bit before playing a6 or not.

To me the most flexible move order seems 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4  cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be2 Be7 7. O-O O-O. Be7 and O-O are moves that will be played in 99% of the games while whether to play a6 or where to develop the b8-knight depends on your approach. Theoretical it doesn't really change much but it might keep your opponent guessing. Basicly it is just about first playing the moves you and your opponent know you are going to play.    

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #3 - 03/19/10 at 12:42:54
Post Tools
snakebite wrote on 03/19/10 at 11:33:18:
For somebody wishing to study the Scheveningen but approach it via a Najdorf move order, is there any better source than Emms Book?


No.  Emms is the best source. 

Ftacnik is working on a Najdorf book for Quality Chess that will reportedly cover the Scheveningen lines.  But its not yet out.  His ChessBase DVD is good, but like most DVDs, more of an overview.

Pritchett focuses on lines without an early ..a6 and doesn't cover the Najdorf move order.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #2 - 03/19/10 at 12:34:55
Post Tools
TN wrote on 03/19/10 at 12:23:46:
Are you playing the Scheviningen via. a Najdorf move order to avoid the Keres Attack? The 6.Bg5 lines seem to be more of a hassle than the Keres, in least in terms of the amount of theory one must know, since the Keres main lines seem to be holding up well for Black lately, but that's just my opinion.


Mine too.  I'm playing the Scheveningen quite a bit these days, but from the move order with 2...e6 and 5...d6.  Black may or may not choose to play an early a6.   Pritchett's book is a good introduction, but there are some mistakes in it.  So trust, but verify.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3316
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #1 - 03/19/10 at 12:23:46
Post Tools
Try Jansa's 'Dynamics of Chess Strategy', 'Starting Out: The Scheveningen' by Pritchett, 'The English Attack' by Sammalvuo, and 'Starting Out: The Najdorf' by Palliser. There are other books out there, such as 'Mastering the Sicilian', but these are the ones I can recall from memory.

By the way, there are two books by Emms covering the Scheveningen: 'The Najdorf Scheveningen Style' and 'Starting Out: The Sicilian'; I assume you are referring to the former.

Are you playing the Scheviningen via. a Najdorf move order to avoid the Keres Attack? The 6.Bg5 lines seem to be more of a hassle than the Keres, in least in terms of the amount of theory one must know, since the Keres main lines seem to be holding up well for Black lately, but that's just my opinion.

Also, have a good look at Kasparov's games when you study the Scheveningen.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
snakebite
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 73
Joined: 01/25/06
Sicilian Scheveningen
03/19/10 at 11:33:18
Post Tools
For somebody wishing to study the Scheveningen but approach it via a Najdorf move order, is there any better source than Emms Book?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo