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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence (Read 11454 times)
Paul Cumbers
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #35 - 12/14/16 at 12:50:24
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/10/16 at 11:17:21:
[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2016"]
[White "juliangon"]
[Black "AndyAndyO"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. Nc3 d6 7. e5 Be7 8. Qe2 Kf8 9. Bd2 Nc6 10. 0-0-0 Bg4 11. Be1 Nh6 12. h3 Bh5 13. Bf2 Nf5 14. Rhe1 Rh6 15. a3 Ng3 16. Bxg3 hxg3 17. e6 Na5 18. Ba2 c6 19. exf7 d5 20. b4 Bxf7 21. Ne5 Bh5 22. Ng4 b5 23. Qe5 Bxg4 24. hxg4 Bd6 25. Qf5+ Qf6 26. bxa5 Bxa3+ 27. Kd2 Qxf5 28. gxf5 Bb4 29. Kd3 Bxa5 30. Ra1 g4 31. Bb3 Bxc3 32. Kxc3 a5 33. Rg1 a4 34. Raf1 axb3 35. Kxb3 Rh4 36. Rxf4 Re8 37. Rff1 Kf7 38. c3 Kf6 39. Ra1 Re2 40. Ra6 Kxf5 41. Rxc6 Kf4 42. Rd6 Rh2 43. Rf1+ Rf2 44. Rf6+ Ke3 45. Re6+ Kd3 46. Rd1+ Rd2 0-1

The idea of 18...c6! and 22...b5!, I like very much Smiley

I don't like White's 12.h3 - giving away the g3 square like that doesn't seem right. I offer 12.Nd5 Nf5 13.Qe4 Qd7 14.Bc3 Rb8 15.a3 Rh6 16.Rhf1. Maybe a slight edge for White, but it's complicated and Black's moves aren't forced, so probably unclear! I think 12.Nd5 is better than 12.h3 though.
  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #34 - 12/10/16 at 11:17:21
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/01/10 at 20:11:19:
Returning to this:

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 Bc4 h4 5 Nc3 d6 6 d4 g5 7 e5 Bh6 8 0-0 h3!? 9 g3 Nc6 (Fournier)


again... There have been some recent developments in the theory/analysis:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2015"]
[White "RickF"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. Nc3 d6 7. e5 Bh6 8. 0-0 h3 9. g3 Nc6 10. Qe2 Nge7 11. exd6 cxd6 12. d5 Ne5 13. Nxe5 dxe5 14. Qxe5 0-0 15. gxf4 Ng6 16. Qe2 gxf4 17. Qh5 Qd7 18. Ne4 Qf5 19. Bd3 Bg7 20. Qxf5 Bxf5 21. Bxf4 Rfe8 22. Nf6+ Bxf6 23. Bxf5 Bxb2 24. Rab1 Nxf4 25. Rxf4 Be5 26. Rg4+ Kf8 27. Rxb7 Rab8 28. Rb3 Rxb3 29. axb3 Ke7 30. Rh4 Rg8+ 31. Kf2 Rg2+ 32. Ke3 Rxh2 33. Rh6 Rd2 34. Kxd2 Bf4+ 35. Kd3 Bxh6 36. Bxh3 Kd6 37. Kc4 a5 38. Bg4 ½-½

...was just about okay for Black. (And I had another game which followed the same path all the way to move 31. Presumably the players were using the same software.)

But this set-up seems now to have been refuted:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2016"]
[White "AndyAndyO"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. Nc3 d6 6. d4 g5 7. e5 Bh6 8. 0-0 h3 9. g3 Nc6 10. e6! fxe6 11. d5 exd5 12. Nxd5 Nge7 13. Re1 Kf8 14. gxf4 Nxd5 15. fxg5 Nb6 16. Rf1! Ke8 17. Nd4 Nxc4 18. Nxc6 bxc6 19. Qh5+ Kd7 20. Rf7+ Ke6 21. gxh6 Rg8+ 22. Rg7 Qe8 23. Qxh3+ Kd5 24. Qd3+ Kc5 25. b3 Bh3 26. Qxh3 Qe5 27. Qf1 Ne3 28. Bxe3+ Qxe3+ 29. Qf2 Qxf2+ 30. Kxf2 Raf8+ 31. Ke3 Rh8 32. h7 Rf6 33. Rh1 Rh6 34. Rxc7 R6xh7 35. Rxh7 Rxh7 36. h4 Kb4 37. Rh2 Ka3 38. c3 1-0

I can't find anything for Black after 10 e6!. But AndyAndy came up with another, far more natural plan for Black:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2016"]
[White "juliangon"]
[Black "AndyAndyO"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. Nc3 d6 7. e5 Be7 8. Qe2 Kf8 9. Bd2 Nc6 10. 0-0-0 Bg4 11. Be1 Nh6 12. h3 Bh5 13. Bf2 Nf5 14. Rhe1 Rh6 15. a3 Ng3 16. Bxg3 hxg3 17. e6 Na5 18. Ba2 c6 19. exf7 d5 20. b4 Bxf7 21. Ne5 Bh5 22. Ng4 b5 23. Qe5 Bxg4 24. hxg4 Bd6 25. Qf5+ Qf6 26. bxa5 Bxa3+ 27. Kd2 Qxf5 28. gxf5 Bb4 29. Kd3 Bxa5 30. Ra1 g4 31. Bb3 Bxc3 32. Kxc3 a5 33. Rg1 a4 34. Raf1 axb3 35. Kxb3 Rh4 36. Rxf4 Re8 37. Rff1 Kf7 38. c3 Kf6 39. Ra1 Re2 40. Ra6 Kxf5 41. Rxc6 Kf4 42. Rd6 Rh2 43. Rf1+ Rf2 44. Rf6+ Ke3 45. Re6+ Kd3 46. Rd1+ Rd2 0-1

The idea of 18...c6! and 22...b5!, I like very much Smiley
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #33 - 01/04/11 at 12:06:39
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MNb wrote on 01/04/11 at 10:58:53:
Perhaps 9.c3, clearing c2 for the King?


yes, but the knight belongs on c3 really
  

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MNb
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #32 - 01/04/11 at 10:58:53
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Perhaps 9.c3, clearing c2 for the King?
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #31 - 01/04/11 at 10:53:14
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ah right Smiley

but actually one of my online opponents may have solved the problem for me in other way:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "Magellen"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ne5 d6 7. Nd3 f3 8. gxf3 Be7 9. Be3 Bxh4+ 10. Kd2 Bg5 11. f4 Bh6!?

This is a nice idea; e.g.:

a) 12 Rxh5 Nf6 regains the pawn on e4.
b) 12 Bg2 h4 — and with the Rh8 concealed by the bishop, the further ...h4-h3 is annoying.
c) 12 Nc3 is met by 12...Bg7! and 13...Nc6 targeting d4.

But if White doesn't play Nc3 then Black can set up with ...Qe7, ...Nc6, ... Bd7 and ...0-0-0, when he seems to have no trouble at all.

It looks like I might have to play 12 Kc1, so as to defend the d-pawn by (12...Bg7) 13 f5 and 14 Nf4, but obviously White would rather develop the a1-rook before retreating the king.
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #30 - 12/29/10 at 09:00:35
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/28/10 at 18:16:03:
breizatao wrote on 12/28/10 at 12:49:10:
T.Johannson suggests another 12th move: 12...h4!?.


which line are you talking about?

(obviously Black can't play 12...h4 in tsmenace-samurai)


Yes indeed!  Cheesy
I made the correction in my previous message.
The days after Christmas are not really well for me!  Embarrassed
Sorry
  
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #29 - 12/28/10 at 18:16:03
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breizatao wrote on 12/28/10 at 12:49:10:
T.Johannson suggests another 12th move: 12...h4!?.


which line are you talking about?

(obviously Black can't play 12...h4 in tsmenace-samurai)
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #28 - 12/28/10 at 12:49:10
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/01/10 at 20:11:19:
Returning to this:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "JHDonner"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ne5 d6 7. Nd3 f3 8. gxf3 Be7 9. Be3 Bxh4+ 10. Kd2 Bg5 11. f4 Be7 12. Nc3 f5 13. Bg2 c6 14. Qe2 Kd7 15. Rae1 Kc7 16. Kc1 fxe4 17. Nxe4 Qf8 18. d5 Bd7 19. f5 cxd5 20. Nc3 Nc6 21. Nxd5+ Kc8 22. N3f4 Bxf5 23. Nxh5 Bd7 24. Qc4 Qd8 25. Nb4 d5 26. Nxd5 Bd6 27. b4 Kb8 28. Bf4 Bxf4+ 29. Qxf4+ Kc8 30. Ng7 Rxh1 31. Rxh1 Nge7 32. Rh8 1-0



T.Johannson suggests another 12th move: 12...h4!?. For example:

a) 13.Be2 g3 14.Bf3 Nc6 15.Qe2 h3 16.Rag1 Bh4 is unclear (16...g2? would be a blunder 17.Bxg2 h2 18 Rd1 with idea to continue Kc1, e5 +/-)

b) 13.Qe2 Nf6 14. f5 Nc6 15.Re1 Rg8!? 16.Nf4 (16.Rxh4? Nxe4+ -+) 16... g3 17.Bh3 with compensations.

c) 13.Kc1 Nf6 14.f5 h3 15.e5! dxe5 16.dxe5 Nd5 17.Qxg4! Nxe3 18.Qg7 Rf8 19.f6 (~) 19...Nc6 (19... Nf4? 20.fxe7 Qxe7 21.Qg1 and 22.Bxh3 +/-) 20.Bxh3 Bxh3 21.Rxh3 Qd4 22.fxe7 Nxe7 =
« Last Edit: 12/29/10 at 08:53:52 by breizatao »  
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #27 - 12/15/10 at 21:06:41
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 12/07/10 at 22:01:07:
Hi Jonathan!

I'm surprised at how well this turned out for White - instinctively the "improved Long Whip" should be good for Black. Looking back at your 1998 articles (for Chess Mail I think), you suggested White could get some sort of compensation with 8.Bf4/Be3 but not 8.gxf3?! Be7 9.Be3 Bxh4+ 10.Kd2 Bg5 (as in your game here). Has your assessment of 6.Ne5 changed since then? (Needless to say Black has other ways of playing it apart from the ...f7-f5 plan).

Paul


Hi Paul

My assessment is currently on hold Wink. It's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from such small data.

When I get a new Wagenbach tournament started I'll try this out as White and see what turns up Smiley
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #26 - 12/07/10 at 22:01:07
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/01/10 at 20:11:19:
On the other hand, I got crushed in this game (obviously I wasn't really playing Donner):

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "JHDonner"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ne5 d6 7. Nd3 f3 8. gxf3 Be7 9. Be3 Bxh4+ 10. Kd2 Bg5 11. f4 Be7 12. Nc3 f5 13. Bg2 c6 14. Qe2 Kd7 15. Rae1 Kc7 16. Kc1 fxe4 17. Nxe4 Qf8 18. d5 Bd7 19. f5 cxd5 20. Nc3 Nc6 21. Nxd5+ Kc8 22. N3f4 Bxf5 23. Nxh5 Bd7 24. Qc4 Qd8 25. Nb4 d5 26. Nxd5 Bd6 27. b4 Kb8 28. Bf4 Bxf4+ 29. Qxf4+ Kc8 30. Ng7 Rxh1 31. Rxh1 Nge7 32. Rh8 1-0

I always seem to get smashed when I play ...f7-f5 in the Wagenbach. In this case maybe it's not so bad if Black follows up with ...Bf5 (at move 17-18). Whereas after 19 f5! it was just dreadful.

Hi Jonathan!

I'm surprised at how well this turned out for White - instinctively the "improved Long Whip" should be good for Black. Looking back at your 1998 articles (for Chess Mail I think), you suggested White could get some sort of compensation with 8.Bf4/Be3 but not 8.gxf3?! Be7 9.Be3 Bxh4+ 10.Kd2 Bg5 (as in your game here). Has your assessment of 6.Ne5 changed since then? (Needless to say Black has other ways of playing it apart from the ...f7-f5 plan).

Paul
  
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #25 - 12/02/10 at 08:18:03
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MNb wrote on 12/01/10 at 21:31:52:
No, I don't think Donner even via supernatural communication would play the KG.

I just had to check Wink

The nearest I could find was:

[Event "Hoogovens"]
[Site "Beverwijk"]
[Date "1952"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Donner, Jan Hein"]
[Black "Kramer, Haije"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C29"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. f4 d5 4. d3 Bb4 5. fxe5 Nxe4 6. dxe4 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qh4+ 8. Ke2 Bg4+ 9. Nf3 dxe4 10. Qd4 Bh5 11. Ke3 Bxf3 12. gxf3 Qe1+ 13. Kf4 Qh4+ 14. Ke3 Qe1+ 15. Kf4 ½-½


MNb wrote on 12/01/10 at 21:31:52:
But I dare to bet you played a Dutchman.

And you would be correct.
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #24 - 12/01/10 at 21:31:52
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/01/10 at 20:11:19:
(obviously I wasn't really playing Donner):


No, I don't think Donner even via supernatural communication would play the KG.
But I dare to bet you played a Dutchman.
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #23 - 12/01/10 at 20:11:19
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Returning to this:

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 Bc4 h4 5 Nc3 d6 6 d4 g5 7 e5 Bh6 8 0-0 h3!? 9 g3 Nc6 (Fournier), the following game ended in a draw:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "samurai"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. Nc3 d6 6. d4 g5 7. e5 Bh6 8. 0-0 h3 9. g3 Nc6 10. exd6 cxd6 11. gxf4 gxf4 12. Kh1 Nf6 13. d5 Ne5 14. Qd4 Qb6 15. Bxf4 Qxd4 16. Bb5+ Ke7 17. Nxd4 Bxf4 18. Rxf4 Rg8 19. Be2 Rg2 20. Bf3 Rg6 21. Re1 Bd7 22. Nd1 Re8 23. Ne3 Kd8 24. Rg1 Reg8 25. Rxg6 Rxg6 26. Be2 Ng8 27. c4 Kc7 28. b3 Rf6 29. Rf1 Kb6 30. b4 Rxf1+ 31. Bxf1 Nf6 32. Ndf5 Bxf5 33. Nxf5 a5 34. a3 Ne4 35. Nxd6 axb4 36. axb4 Nxd6 37. c5+ Kc7 38. cxd6+ ½-½

On the other hand, I got crushed in this game (obviously I wasn't really playing Donner):

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "JHDonner"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ne5 d6 7. Nd3 f3 8. gxf3 Be7 9. Be3 Bxh4+ 10. Kd2 Bg5 11. f4 Be7 12. Nc3 f5 13. Bg2 c6 14. Qe2 Kd7 15. Rae1 Kc7 16. Kc1 fxe4 17. Nxe4 Qf8 18. d5 Bd7 19. f5 cxd5 20. Nc3 Nc6 21. Nxd5+ Kc8 22. N3f4 Bxf5 23. Nxh5 Bd7 24. Qc4 Qd8 25. Nb4 d5 26. Nxd5 Bd6 27. b4 Kb8 28. Bf4 Bxf4+ 29. Qxf4+ Kc8 30. Ng7 Rxh1 31. Rxh1 Nge7 32. Rh8 1-0

I always seem to get smashed when I play ...f7-f5 in the Wagenbach. In this case maybe it's not so bad if Black follows up with ...Bf5 (at move 17-18). Whereas after 19 f5! it was just dreadful.
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #22 - 07/15/10 at 19:16:28
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/13/10 at 18:03:37:
Hi Paul Smiley

I'm playing the White side of 6...d6 7 e5 in my ChessWorld thematic tournament (mentioned above) and Black has gone 7...Bh6 8 0-0 h3 9 g3 Nc6 (see Fournier/Bücker above), probably following this very thread. It doesn't actually look too bad for Black.

As for 6...Nc6, what would you play after 7 d5 Na5 8 Be2 - ? I had this as White in my last CW thematic and gained a massive position (which I blundered to a draw right at the end).

Ah, you are already two steps ahead of me! I've looked at 6...Nc6 7.d5 Na5 8.Be2 more closely now, and that knight on a5 is really awkward for Black... not to be recommended.

Actually, I lost the thread of the thread, and didn't realise there was a viable line for Black after 6...d6 7.e5 (i.e. 7...Bh6 8 0-0 h3 9 g3 Nc6). No need to look for alternatives on move 6 just yet Wink

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/02/10 at 11:54:55:
9...Nc6 10.exd6 cxd6 11.d5 Qb6+ 12.Kh1 Ne5 looks sound. White has a slight plus (13.Bb5+; 13.Nxe5), but not more.

This looks completely unclear to me - too early to say whether White has an edge or not. White's king is as shaky as Black's Wink
  
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #21 - 07/14/10 at 16:40:06
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TalJechin wrote on 07/14/10 at 14:12:46:
Just curious, how is it possible "to blunder" in corr?


several reasons:

1) I don't play CW games as correspondence games.
2) I moved too quickly.
3) The win/draw was quite subtle and concerned a single tempo.

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "Aethelbald"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. d4 g5 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d5 Na5 8. Be2 Bg7 9. Qd3 d6 10. b4 g4 11. Nd2 h3 12. g3 f3 13. Bd1 Nf6 14. bxa5 Nd7 15. 0-0 Ne5 16. Qe3 c6 17. a6 bxa6 18. dxc6 Nxc6 19. Nb3 Rb8 20. Nd5 Bxa1 21. Nxa1 Be6 22. Nb3 Ne5 23. Nd4 Bxd5 24. exd5 Rb7 25. Nc6 (this turns out to be far more difficult than I'd anticipated) 25...Qb6 26. Nxe5 dxe5 27. c4 Qxe3+ 28. Bxe3 Rb2 29. Rf2 Rb1 30. Rd2 Kd7 31. Kf2 f5 32. c5 Rb4 33. a3 Rc4 34. Bb3 Rc3 35. Rb2 Rb8 36. Ba4+ Kc8 37. Bd7+ Kc7 38. Rxb8 Rc2+ 39. Kf1 Kxb8 40. Bxf5 Rxh2 41. Bxg4 Re2 42. Bg5 Rg2 43. Bxh3 Rxg3 44. d6 Rxg5 45. c6 Rg8 46. Kf2 Rf8 47. Bf1 e4 48. Bxa6?? Rc8! 49. Bb5 a6! ½-½

due to 50 c7+ Rxc7 51 dxc7+ Kxc7 52 Bxa6 Kb6 and White cannot make progress; whereas 48 Ke3 wins, e.g. 48...Rc8 49 c7+ Rxc7 50 dxc7+ Kxc7 51 Kxe4 Kb6 52 Kd4 Ka5 53 Kc3 Ka4 54 Kb2 etc.
  

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