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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence (Read 66717 times)
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #46 - 09/16/19 at 04:31:25
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God Member = 500 posts

Yes, it's dumb.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #45 - 09/16/19 at 01:37:00
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I found the 1906 game in Colin Leach's booklet KGA: Allgaier and Kieseritzky. That game is now online, in the comments to this chess stack exchange post . . . oops, I see I'm not allowed to create links. Well, you can easily find it if you search the chess stack exchange for Wagenbach.

I guess the reason nobody looked at 8.Bxg5 for the first couple centuries (before 3...h5 was invented) was because it was preceded by two successive inferior moves: 5.Ng5 h5? 6.d4? Why dig deeper into 6.d4 when you've got 6.Bc4!

I stumbled onto 8.Bxg5 myself, kind of hoping it would go into the books as my one contribution to chess, but when I PMed Jonathan Tait he informed me that he has faced it twice, winning both times because of inaccurate play by White.

I guess the computer evaluation means White has a big advantage at the machine vs machine or GM vs GM level. (Is that what "God Member" means? God Member = GM?) Down here at the fish vs fish level I guess the better/luckier player will win, whoever makes the next to last mistake. When I play White against the machine from that position, needless to say the machine always wins.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #44 - 09/15/19 at 15:06:52
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bof wrote on 09/15/19 at 14:11:15:
I know of two games with 8.hxg5, none with 8.Bxg5. (Jonathan, could you post your games in this line, or are they already posted in this thread or your blog?) The two 8.hxg5 games I know of, both by transposition from the Allgaier and both won by Black, are Cotter-Von Bruehl, London 1788, and Weiss-von Gompers, Vienna 1906.


The first game I have found, not the second one. Interesting. Maybe because Black won those, nobody has looked carefully at 8. Bxg5 until now? Is it your finding? I wonder if Black can survive. I had to dig deeper into this line to see. So far, I can't find a decent-looking defence for Black!
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #43 - 09/15/19 at 14:11:15
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I know of two games with 8.hxg5, none with 8.Bxg5. (Jonathan, could you post your games in this line, or are they already posted in this thread or your blog?) The two 8.hxg5 games I know of, both by transposition from the Allgaier and both won by Black, are Cotter-Von Bruehl, London 1788, and Weiss-von Gompers, Vienna 1906.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #42 - 09/15/19 at 12:14:44
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Interesting to see that 8. Bxg5 is so good for White. Is it a novelty? I can't find it played in corr or OTB. The only game I have found so far continued 8. hxg5, and seems to have been played in 1788. Btw, I wonder if the historian here at Chesspub remembers that game and has a story about it? Anyway, it was cited by Koetsier in his comments to a game from 1999.

Back to the variation, after 9. Qd2, both Lc0 and SF10 agrees on an advantage for White, although they vary in how they consider Black should reply.

I am curious to here what you think of this line, Jonathan, as you have quite a history in the variation!
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #41 - 09/15/19 at 08:04:19
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bof wrote on 09/10/19 at 23:19:33:
The answer is yes, in case anyone is still interested; see reply #38. Sorry for replying to a decade-old thread.


I'm certainly interested Smiley, but I'm only just back from holiday. I'll reply properly when I've got more time.
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #40 - 09/10/19 at 23:19:33
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/29/10 at 20:16:00:
1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5!?

has anyone found a refutation yet? Smiley


The answer is yes, in case anyone is still interested; see reply #38. Sorry for replying to a decade-old thread.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #39 - 09/10/19 at 07:47:13
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That game Stockfish won really is a thoroughly surrealist masterpiece Smiley
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #38 - 09/09/19 at 22:01:22
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1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5? 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5! f6 7.Bxf4 fxg5 8.Bxg5! Be7 9.Qd2 etc.
« Last Edit: 09/10/19 at 11:53:30 by bof »  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #37 - 08/07/19 at 11:17:01
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btw, the reason I revisited this thread today is because I just downloaded the games Stockfish-Leelenstein games from CCC 9: The Gauntlet Final and was very surprised to see two Wagenbachs in there Shocked

[Event "CCC 9: The Gauntlet Final (10|5)"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2019.07.11"]
[Round "180"]
[White "Leelenstein"]
[Black "Stockfish"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C34"]
[PlyCount "136"]
[EventDate "2019.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. h3 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qe2 Bg7 9. Bd2 a5 10. O-O-O b5 11. Bd3 Na6 12. Rhe1 Kf8 13. Qf2 Rh5 14. Kb1 Nb4 15. Be2 d5 16. a3 dxe4 17. Nxe4 Nd5 18. Bd3 b4 19. a4 Bf5 20. Bc1 Ra7 21. Qf1 Bxe4 22. Rxe4 Re7 23. Qe2 Qe8 24. Re1 Bf6 25. Ne5 Rh8 26. Bc4 Kg7 27. Bb3 Nh6 28. Qa6 Re6 29. Qxa5 Nf5 30. Rd1 Bd8 31. Qa6 Bb6 32. a5 Nxd4 33. Rexd4 Bxd4 34. Nxf7 Qxf7 35. Rxd4 Rd8 36. Qd3 Re1 37. Re4 Rxe4 38. Qxe4 Ra8 39. Qd4+ Qf6 40. Qc5 Qd8 41. Qxc6 Qxa5 42. c3 Ne7 43. Qd6 Ng6 44. Qd4+ Kh6 45. Qxb4 Qf5+ 46. Bc2 Ra1+ 47. Kxa1 Qxc2 48. Bxf4 gxf4 49. Qb7 Qd3 50. Ka2 f3 51. Qxf3 Qxf3 52. gxf3 Kg5 53. b4 Kf6 54. b5 Ke6 55. Kb3 Nf4 56. Kc4 Nxh3 57. Kd4 Nf4 58. Ke3 h3 59. Kd2 h2 60. b6 h1=Q 61. b7 Qb1 62. b8=R Qxb8 63. Kc2 Qb5 64. c4 Qxc4+ 65. Kd2 Ke5 66. Kd1 Qe2+ 67. Kc1 Nd3+ 68. Kb1 Qb2# 0-1

[Event "CCC 9: The Gauntlet Final (10|5)"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2019.07.11"]
[Round "179"]
[White "Stockfish"]
[Black "Leelenstein"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C34"]
[PlyCount "168"]
[EventDate "2019.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. Nc3 d6 7. h3 Bg7 8. O-O c6 9. Qe1 Nh6 10. Ne2 Nd7 11. c3 Nb6 12. Bd3 Be6 13. a4 Nd7 14. a5 a6 15. Qd1 Rg8 16. Kh1 Qe7 17. Nxg5 Qxg5 18. Nxf4 Qe7 19. Qa4 Bf8 20. Bd2 Rg3 21. Qc2 O-O-O 22. d5 Bxh3 23. Nxh3 Nc5 24. Bc4 Qxe4 25. Qxe4 Nxe4 26. Bf4 Rg8 27. dxc6 bxc6 28. Bxa6+ Kb8 29. Kg1 Ka8 30. Nf2 Nc5 31. Be2 d5 32. Rae1 Nf5 33. b4 Ne6 34. Ng4 Nxf4 35. Rxf4 Rg5 36. Bd3 Nd6 37. Nf2 Rh5 38. Rg4 Bh6 39. Re2 Bg5 40. c4 f5 41. Rd4 Ne4 42. cxd5 cxd5 43. Bc2 Rhh8 44. Bb3 Kb8 45. Nxe4 dxe4 46. Rxd8+ Rxd8 47. Be6 Bd2 48. Bxf5 e3 49. g3 hxg3 50. Kg2 Rg8 51. Be4 Rg4 52. Bd3 Rd4 53. Bg6 Rxb4 54. Kxg3 Rb5 55. Kf3 Rg5 56. Bd3 Rd5 57. Be4 Rh5 58. a6 Rh3+ 59. Kg4 Rh8 60. a7+ Kxa7 61. Bd3 Kb6 62. Kf3 Rf8+ 63. Ke4 Kc5 64. Rg2 Kd6 65. Be2 Rf6 66. Rg5 Rf7 67. Rg6+ Kc5 68. Rg5+ Kb4 69. Rb5+ Kc3 70. Rc5+ Kb2 71. Rb5+ Kc2 72. Rc5+ Kb3 73. Rc8 Rf2 74. Rb8+ Kc2 75. Rc8+ Kb2 76. Rb8+ Kc3 77. Rc8+ Kb4 78. Kd3 Rf6 79. Rb8+ Kc5 80. Rc8+ Kb6 81. Bg4 Rf4 82. Be2 Rf7 83. Kc4 Rf2 84. Kd3 Rf7 1/2-1/2

Score: 1½-½ to Black Smiley
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #36 - 08/07/19 at 11:11:32
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 12/14/16 at 12:50:24:
I don't like White's 12.h3 - giving away the g3 square like that doesn't seem right. I offer 12.Nd5 Nf5 13.Qe4 Qd7 14.Bc3 Rb8 15.a3 Rh6 16.Rhf1. Maybe a slight edge for White, but it's complicated and Black's moves aren't forced, so probably unclear! I think 12.Nd5 is better than 12.h3 though.


Three years later and I've only just noticed you replied to this thread. Embarrassed

Yes, I agree that 12.Nd5 is better. I'd looked at stuff like 12...Nf5 13.Bc3 Rh6 14.Qe4 Qd7 15.Rhf1 Re8 16.Nxf4!? gxf4 17.Qxf4 Rg6 18.h3 (or 18.Kb1 h3) 18...Bxf3 19.Qxf3 Bg5+ 20.Kb1 Ne3 21.Qxf7+ (or 21.e6 Rgxe6 22.d5 Nxc4) 21...Qxf7 22.Rxf7+ Kg8 23.Re7+ Kf8 24.Rf7+ with a draw. But as you say, it's all very unclear.
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #35 - 12/14/16 at 12:50:24
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/10/16 at 11:17:21:
[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2016"]
[White "juliangon"]
[Black "AndyAndyO"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. Nc3 d6 7. e5 Be7 8. Qe2 Kf8 9. Bd2 Nc6 10. 0-0-0 Bg4 11. Be1 Nh6 12. h3 Bh5 13. Bf2 Nf5 14. Rhe1 Rh6 15. a3 Ng3 16. Bxg3 hxg3 17. e6 Na5 18. Ba2 c6 19. exf7 d5 20. b4 Bxf7 21. Ne5 Bh5 22. Ng4 b5 23. Qe5 Bxg4 24. hxg4 Bd6 25. Qf5+ Qf6 26. bxa5 Bxa3+ 27. Kd2 Qxf5 28. gxf5 Bb4 29. Kd3 Bxa5 30. Ra1 g4 31. Bb3 Bxc3 32. Kxc3 a5 33. Rg1 a4 34. Raf1 axb3 35. Kxb3 Rh4 36. Rxf4 Re8 37. Rff1 Kf7 38. c3 Kf6 39. Ra1 Re2 40. Ra6 Kxf5 41. Rxc6 Kf4 42. Rd6 Rh2 43. Rf1+ Rf2 44. Rf6+ Ke3 45. Re6+ Kd3 46. Rd1+ Rd2 0-1

The idea of 18...c6! and 22...b5!, I like very much Smiley

I don't like White's 12.h3 - giving away the g3 square like that doesn't seem right. I offer 12.Nd5 Nf5 13.Qe4 Qd7 14.Bc3 Rb8 15.a3 Rh6 16.Rhf1. Maybe a slight edge for White, but it's complicated and Black's moves aren't forced, so probably unclear! I think 12.Nd5 is better than 12.h3 though.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #34 - 12/10/16 at 11:17:21
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/01/10 at 20:11:19:
Returning to this:

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 Bc4 h4 5 Nc3 d6 6 d4 g5 7 e5 Bh6 8 0-0 h3!? 9 g3 Nc6 (Fournier)


again... There have been some recent developments in the theory/analysis:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2015"]
[White "RickF"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. Nc3 d6 7. e5 Bh6 8. 0-0 h3 9. g3 Nc6 10. Qe2 Nge7 11. exd6 cxd6 12. d5 Ne5 13. Nxe5 dxe5 14. Qxe5 0-0 15. gxf4 Ng6 16. Qe2 gxf4 17. Qh5 Qd7 18. Ne4 Qf5 19. Bd3 Bg7 20. Qxf5 Bxf5 21. Bxf4 Rfe8 22. Nf6+ Bxf6 23. Bxf5 Bxb2 24. Rab1 Nxf4 25. Rxf4 Be5 26. Rg4+ Kf8 27. Rxb7 Rab8 28. Rb3 Rxb3 29. axb3 Ke7 30. Rh4 Rg8+ 31. Kf2 Rg2+ 32. Ke3 Rxh2 33. Rh6 Rd2 34. Kxd2 Bf4+ 35. Kd3 Bxh6 36. Bxh3 Kd6 37. Kc4 a5 38. Bg4 ½-½

...was just about okay for Black. (And I had another game which followed the same path all the way to move 31. Presumably the players were using the same software.)

But this set-up seems now to have been refuted:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2016"]
[White "AndyAndyO"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. Nc3 d6 6. d4 g5 7. e5 Bh6 8. 0-0 h3 9. g3 Nc6 10. e6! fxe6 11. d5 exd5 12. Nxd5 Nge7 13. Re1 Kf8 14. gxf4 Nxd5 15. fxg5 Nb6 16. Rf1! Ke8 17. Nd4 Nxc4 18. Nxc6 bxc6 19. Qh5+ Kd7 20. Rf7+ Ke6 21. gxh6 Rg8+ 22. Rg7 Qe8 23. Qxh3+ Kd5 24. Qd3+ Kc5 25. b3 Bh3 26. Qxh3 Qe5 27. Qf1 Ne3 28. Bxe3+ Qxe3+ 29. Qf2 Qxf2+ 30. Kxf2 Raf8+ 31. Ke3 Rh8 32. h7 Rf6 33. Rh1 Rh6 34. Rxc7 R6xh7 35. Rxh7 Rxh7 36. h4 Kb4 37. Rh2 Ka3 38. c3 1-0

I can't find anything for Black after 10 e6!. But AndyAndy came up with another, far more natural plan for Black:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2016"]
[White "juliangon"]
[Black "AndyAndyO"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. Nc3 d6 7. e5 Be7 8. Qe2 Kf8 9. Bd2 Nc6 10. 0-0-0 Bg4 11. Be1 Nh6 12. h3 Bh5 13. Bf2 Nf5 14. Rhe1 Rh6 15. a3 Ng3 16. Bxg3 hxg3 17. e6 Na5 18. Ba2 c6 19. exf7 d5 20. b4 Bxf7 21. Ne5 Bh5 22. Ng4 b5 23. Qe5 Bxg4 24. hxg4 Bd6 25. Qf5+ Qf6 26. bxa5 Bxa3+ 27. Kd2 Qxf5 28. gxf5 Bb4 29. Kd3 Bxa5 30. Ra1 g4 31. Bb3 Bxc3 32. Kxc3 a5 33. Rg1 a4 34. Raf1 axb3 35. Kxb3 Rh4 36. Rxf4 Re8 37. Rff1 Kf7 38. c3 Kf6 39. Ra1 Re2 40. Ra6 Kxf5 41. Rxc6 Kf4 42. Rd6 Rh2 43. Rf1+ Rf2 44. Rf6+ Ke3 45. Re6+ Kd3 46. Rd1+ Rd2 0-1

The idea of 18...c6! and 22...b5!, I like very much Smiley
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #33 - 01/04/11 at 12:06:39
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MNb wrote on 01/04/11 at 10:58:53:
Perhaps 9.c3, clearing c2 for the King?


yes, but the knight belongs on c3 really
  

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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #32 - 01/04/11 at 10:58:53
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Perhaps 9.c3, clearing c2 for the King?
  

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