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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0 (Read 10624 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #21 - 08/08/18 at 04:18:24
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Reloaded Weapons in the Benoni by Milos Pavlovic has a chapter on the "late Benoni".
  
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Stigma
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #20 - 08/07/18 at 12:08:02
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MNb wrote on 08/07/18 at 11:45:24:
https://www.modern-chess.com/en/chess-databases/database=6

No idea if the database is worth its money, but this advertisement has made me look at 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.e4 Bg7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.h3 e6/Na6/Re8.
Of course avoiding the Taimanov/Flick Knife also is a big plus.
Against two of White's most important systems, the Classical and the Counterfianchetto, Black still can transpose to the Modern Benoni.

We discussed that "Late Benoni" database a bit in this thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1522883731/10, mentioning some critical setups: Both Nf3/Bd3/h3 and Nf3/Bd3 without h3. I haven't really tried to bolster Black's cause there; currently thinking about the Modern Benoni instead, at least when White is committed to an early Nf3.
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #19 - 08/07/18 at 11:45:24
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Stigma wrote on 08/06/18 at 19:40:41:
So is Black getting a bit short of alternatives to the 9...b5 main line with the dreary but drawable 10.Bxb5 line?

That has been my impression for several decades. Several times it has motivated me to look at the Old Benoni as a transpositional tool. Last time this happened due to this advertisement:


https://www.modern-chess.com/en/chess-databases/database=6

No idea if the database is worth its money, but this advertisement has made me look at 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.e4 Bg7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.h3 e6/Na6/Re8.
Of course avoiding the Taimanov/Flick Knife also is a big plus.
Against two of White's most important systems, the Classical and the Counterfianchetto, Black still can transpose to the Modern Benoni.
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #18 - 08/06/18 at 19:40:41
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/06/18 at 03:55:28:
Looked at this again recently and Stockfish 9 gives White a pretty clear plus in all lines.  Black struggles to draw even with best play.  Sad since this variation was so exciting in many lines.


So is Black getting a bit short of alternatives to the 9...b5 main line with the dreary but drawable 10.Bxb5 line? I see that Petrov in his Benoni book claimed 9...Nh5 (after castling this time) was OK for Black. He also found the move order popularized by Watson with 7.Nf3 a6 8.a4 Bg4 acceptable, though there are some White move orders that sidestep that line.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #17 - 08/06/18 at 03:55:28
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Looked at this again recently and Stockfish 9 gives White a pretty clear plus in all lines.  Black struggles to draw even with best play.  Sad since this variation was so exciting in many lines.
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #16 - 08/19/10 at 12:42:00
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/18/10 at 17:35:15:
No one has commented yet on the analysis I presented above, but I'm sure I'm not alone in being a little uncomfortable with the Black position.  Particularly I'm not at all sure about Rybka's 23...h5 which it seemed to like so much.  Seems to take the flexibility out of the Black position.  I decided to try a relatively quick match between Stockfish (White) and Firebird and the game looks more like something I'd be willing to try out. 

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nf3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nc3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.h3 a6 9.a4 Nbd7 10.Bd3 Nh5 11.O-O Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.Bxf3 Qh4 14.Ra3! Be5 15.Re1 Nf6! [size=12][/size]16.Ne2 Nd7 17.g3 Qe7 18.a5 (my above comment had 18.Qc2 but White was bound to play this soon anyway) 18...0-0 19.Bg2 Bg7 20.Qc2 Ne5!? 21.f4 Nd7 22.g4 b5 23.axb6 Nxb6 24.e5 Rb8 25.Rd1 Bb7 26.Be3 Rfc8 27.Qb3 Nd7 28.exd6 Qxd6 29.Nc3 Ba8.

Rybka (3) is evaluating this is nearly perfectly equal for what it's worth.  Any thoughts?

Interesting! Maybe I was too quick to dismiss 16...Nd7. It somehow "feels" wrong as Black is losing lots of time with Nf6-h5-f6-d7, Qh4-e7, Bg7-e5-g7, and yet he seems to be OK (certainly in all the lines you gave)! Weird Shocked. As White, I'd be tempted to head straight for the central advance with 16...Nd7 17.g3 Qe7 (17...Qd8!?) 18.Bg2 0-0 19.f4 Bg7 20.Nc3, but I'm not sure whether it makes too much difference.

By the way, what do you make of Black's other option, i.e. the 14.Ra3 Be5 15.Re1 Nf4 16.a5 Nxh3+!? piece sac?
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #15 - 08/18/10 at 17:35:15
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No one has commented yet on the analysis I presented above, but I'm sure I'm not alone in being a little uncomfortable with the Black position.  Particularly I'm not at all sure about Rybka's 23...h5 which it seemed to like so much.  Seems to take the flexibility out of the Black position.  I decided to try a relatively quick match between Stockfish (White) and Firebird and the game looks more like something I'd be willing to try out. 

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nf3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nc3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.h3 a6 9.a4 Nbd7 10.Bd3 Nh5 11.O-O Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.Bxf3 Qh4 14.Ra3! Be5 15.Re1 Nf6! [size=12][/size]16.Ne2 Nd7 17.g3 Qe7 18.a5 (my above comment had 18.Qc2 but White was bound to play this soon anyway) 18...0-0 19.Bg2 Bg7 20.Qc2 Ne5!? 21.f4 Nd7 22.g4 b5 23.axb6 Nxb6 24.e5 Rb8 25.Rd1 Bb7 26.Be3 Rfc8 27.Qb3 Nd7 28.exd6 Qxd6 29.Nc3 Ba8.

Rybka (3) is evaluating this is nearly perfectly equal for what it's worth.  Any thoughts?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #14 - 08/18/10 at 07:31:49
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[quote author=1F203D2C3A3C4F0 link=1277923036/3#3 date=1278098006][quote author=7C717C737A1D0 link=1277923036/1#1 date=1277935035]After 15...Nf6, 16.Ne2 could be a problem.

For example: 16...g5 17.g3 Qxh3 18.Bg2 Qh5 19.f4 gxf4 20.gxf4 Bxd4 21.Nxd4 Qxd1 22.Rxd1 cxd4 23.Rxd4 +/-[/quote]
I think you're right.  :(

White can play in a similar way against 16...0-0 as well, i.e. 17.g3 Qxh3 18.Bg2 Qh5 19.f4 Ng4 20.fxe5 Qh2+ 21.Kf1 Nxe5 22.Nf4 Bg4 23.Qd2! g5 (23...Nc4 24.Qc3 Nxa3 25.bxa3 looks good for White) 24.Kf2! and the threat of Rh1 sends Black packing.

I can see now that the rook on a3 performs a very useful defensive role along the 3rd rank - fortifying the sensitive h3 & g3 squares. White is preparing to push Black back with g3, Bg2, f4 without allowing dangerous sacs on h3/g3.

After 16.Ne2, maybe Black's best is the retrograde 16...Nd7, but this is a sign that it's all gone wrong for him. The problem bishop on c8 is as bad as ever.

Backing up a bit, perhaps Black should try 15...Nf4 (instead of 15...Nf6). :-/ [/quote]

I've been looking at the position after [b]16...Nd7[/b] some more and despite the undeveloped Bishop, Rybka 3 seems to think Black's doing OK.  For example:

[b]17.g3[/b] (17.Rb3 b5!? 18.axb5 axb5 19.Rxb5 0-0) [b]17...Qe7 18.Qc2 Bg7 19.a5 0-0 20.Bg2 Rb8 21.Bd2[/b] (21.g4 b5 22.axb6 Rxb6 23.b3 Re8 24.Ng3?! Qh4 25.Bd2 [if the Knight moves then Black has ...h5) 25...Bd4 26.Bc3 Rb4) [b]21...b5 22.axb6 Rxb6 23.b3 h5! 24.Nc1[/b] (Also looked at 24.Bc3 and 24.f4) [b]24...h4 25.g4 Bd4.[/b]  That's probably more than enough moves to start the refutation process.  Here Rybka and Firebird think Black's doing alright while Stockfish thinks White is doing rather well.  Certainly Black's position is more of a counterattacking nature, and while I'd rather have White if I had to try and win with Black this variation has more life than other anti-MML variations. 
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #13 - 08/17/10 at 21:39:38
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I had looked at 15.Bxh5 but missed your strong 16.Ne2! followup after which I haven't been able to find anything satisfactory for Black.  I have the Dangerous Weapons book so was familiar with the cunning ...Rg8 idea but I thought Black might be able to transpose to Watson's ...Nh5 ideas with 0-0 (with the inclusion of a4 and ...a6) but it just doesn't work here.  Back to the drawing board.
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #12 - 08/17/10 at 13:02:00
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/16/10 at 10:21:08:
Quote:
Most White 15th moves seem to be actively answered by 15...f5.  One exception might be 15.Be3 because of the idea of 16.Qc1, but 15.Be3 Nf4 appears OK for Black.  Going back to 15.Be3 f5 16.Qc1 it's hard for me to believe that after 16...f4 17.Bd2, Black could really be worse but so far that's what my computer is telling me.  Possibly this is similar to King's Indian lines where analysis engines underestimate Black's attack until it's too late?


Looking a little deeper this looks pretty bad for White.  Unfortunately not only am I a little slow, so is my computer.  So is there anything wrong with 14...O-O?

One of Black's ideas behind deferred castling is to be able to play ...Rg8! in the event of Bxh5 gxh5. So after 14...O-O, now is a good time for White to try 15.Bxh5! gxh5 without having to worry about an immediate ...Rg8. Then 16.Ne2! awakens the rook on a3. If 16...Qxe4, White has 17.Ng3 and Nxh5. Alternatively 16...f5 17.Rg3 Kh8 (17...f4 18.Rf3! wins a pawn in view of 18...Be5? 19.Bxf4 Bxf4 20.Nxf4 Rxf4 21.g3) 18.Bg5 Qxe4 19.Nf4 with a strong attack.
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #11 - 08/16/10 at 10:21:08
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Quote:
Most White 15th moves seem to be actively answered by 15...f5.  One exception might be 15.Be3 because of the idea of 16.Qc1, but 15.Be3 Nf4 appears OK for Black.  Going back to 15.Be3 f5 16.Qc1 it's hard for me to believe that after 16...f4 17.Bd2, Black could really be worse but so far that's what my computer is telling me.  Possibly this is similar to King's Indian lines where analysis engines underestimate Black's attack until it's too late?


Looking a little deeper this looks pretty bad for White.  Unfortunately not only am I a little slow, so is my computer.  So is there anything wrong with 14...O-O?
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #10 - 08/16/10 at 09:57:29
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After, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.Nf3 Bg7 8.h3 a6 9.a4 Nbd7 10.Bd3 Nh5 11.O-O Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.Bxf3 Qh4 14.Ra3,

Black could try reverting to 14...O-O!? which seems less exciting, but still leads to interesting positions.  With Ra3 replaced by Re1, Watson has written that Black's position is dubious because "Ra3! is a good move for White at some point, and also because a5 is effective in some lines".  However, in this exact position, Black may just be alright although I'll admit I haven't explored it enough to be sure.

Most White 15th moves seem to be actively answered by 15...f5.  One exception might be 15.Be3 because of the idea of 16.Qc1, but 15.Be3 Nf4 appears OK for Black.  Going back to 15.Be3 f5 16.Qc1 it's hard for me to believe that after 16...f4 17.Bd2, Black could really be worse but so far that's what my computer is telling me.  Possibly this is similar to King's Indian lines where analysis engines underestimate Black's attack until it's too late?
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #9 - 07/06/10 at 11:11:04
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Thanks Markovich!  So once again it is the age old dilemma of how to win with black.
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #8 - 07/05/10 at 22:34:12
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Hoppers wrote on 07/05/10 at 12:25:32:
Hi Paul,
           I agree re the ideas behind Ra3.  It reminds me very much of the KID line played in Yusupov-Kasparov, Yerevan Olympiad 1996: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 0-0 6 Be2 e5 7 0-0 Nc6 8 d5 Ne7 9 Ne1 Nd7 10 Be3 f5 11 f3 f4 12 Bf2 g5 13 a4 a5 14 Nd3 b6 15 b4 axb4 16 Nxb4 Nf6 17 Ra3!? 

I have had an identical idea in my own practice.  After playing a typical ...g3 pawn sac, white played hxg3 hxg3 Bxg3 Nh5 f4! sacrificing the pawn back, but introducing the rook to the defence of the kingside.

Even if the Dufek novelty is strong, I thought black was currently okay (again according to chesspublishing) after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3 exd5 5 cxd5 d6 6 e4 g6 7 h3 Bg7 8 Nf3 0-0 9 Bd3 b5 10 Bxb5 Nxe4 11 Nxe4 Qa5+ 12 Nfd2 Qxb5 13 Nxd6 Qa6 14 N2c4 Nd7 15 0-0 Ne5!?, as opposed to 15...Nb6 leading to the infamous 2Rs and 4 vs. Q+4 ending.

This of course shouldn't inhibit further analysis of the Dufek idea though!  Smiley


Yeah, Black is supposed to be O.K. after 15...Ne5!, and I've drawn one cc game from here myself, but Black's winning chances are close to nil, and the draw requires precision. 
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #7 - 07/05/10 at 12:25:32
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Hi Paul,
           I agree re the ideas behind Ra3.  It reminds me very much of the KID line played in Yusupov-Kasparov, Yerevan Olympiad 1996: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 0-0 6 Be2 e5 7 0-0 Nc6 8 d5 Ne7 9 Ne1 Nd7 10 Be3 f5 11 f3 f4 12 Bf2 g5 13 a4 a5 14 Nd3 b6 15 b4 axb4 16 Nxb4 Nf6 17 Ra3!? 

I have had an identical idea in my own practice.  After playing a typical ...g3 pawn sac, white played hxg3 hxg3 Bxg3 Nh5 f4! sacrificing the pawn back, but introducing the rook to the defence of the kingside.

Even if the Dufek novelty is strong, I thought black was currently okay (again according to chesspublishing) after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3 exd5 5 cxd5 d6 6 e4 g6 7 h3 Bg7 8 Nf3 0-0 9 Bd3 b5 10 Bxb5 Nxe4 11 Nxe4 Qa5+ 12 Nfd2 Qxb5 13 Nxd6 Qa6 14 N2c4 Nd7 15 0-0 Ne5!?, as opposed to 15...Nb6 leading to the infamous 2Rs and 4 vs. Q+4 ending.

This of course shouldn't inhibit further analysis of the Dufek idea though!  Smiley
  

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