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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0 (Read 11386 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #27 - 09/02/18 at 07:55:12
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Stigma wrote on 09/02/18 at 03:29:44:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/02/18 at 02:59:02:
Glenn Snow wrote on 09/02/18 at 01:59:31:
No, he gives "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.h3 0-0 7.Bd3 e6", and then has chapters on 8.Nf3 and 8.Nge2.
When you wrote "No", did you mean "Yes"?


I was going to ask the same thing. Maybe Glenn misread "without" in my post?

Stigma wrote on 08/30/18 at 03:49:35:
I heard that this chapter fails to mention the challenging line with Nf3 and Bd3 without h3. Is that true?


It should read, "yes"!  Isn't there a table of contents available somewhere?
  
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Stigma
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #26 - 09/02/18 at 03:29:44
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/02/18 at 02:59:02:
Glenn Snow wrote on 09/02/18 at 01:59:31:
No, he gives "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.h3 0-0 7.Bd3 e6", and then has chapters on 8.Nf3 and 8.Nge2.
When you wrote "No", did you mean "Yes"?


I was going to ask the same thing. Maybe Glenn misread "without" in my post?

Stigma wrote on 08/30/18 at 03:49:35:
I heard that this chapter fails to mention the challenging line with Nf3 and Bd3 without h3. Is that true?
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #25 - 09/02/18 at 02:59:02
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Glenn Snow wrote on 09/02/18 at 01:59:31:
No, he gives "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.h3 0-0 7.Bd3 e6", and then has chapters on 8.Nf3 and 8.Nge2.
When you wrote "No", did you mean "Yes"?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #24 - 09/02/18 at 01:59:31
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Stigma wrote on 08/30/18 at 03:49:35:
[quote author=172F2E332E2E252C27400 link=1277923037/21#21 date=1533698304]Reloaded Weapons in the Benoni by Milos Pavlovic has a chapter on the "late Benoni".

Quote:
I heard that this chapter fails to mention the challenging line with Nf3 and Bd3 without h3. Is that true?


No, he gives "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.h3 0-0 7.Bd3 e6", and then has chapters on 8.Nf3 and 8.Nge2.
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #23 - 08/31/18 at 20:59:44
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If going with the Modern Benoni and mixing it with the Nimzo, you have an option against the Modern Main Line which Petrov covers in his Benoni book.

Without giving away reams of analysis, the general point is that one of the following two strategies should work against an early Nf3:

1) If white has played e4 before h3, then black has the sequence ...a6 (to induce a4 and remove the possibility of Qa4+), followed by ...Bg4.

2) If white plays h3 before e4, then black has ...a6 (again inducing a4 as above), then Qe7, which restricts white from playing e4.

Example line for strategy 1) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.cxd5 g6 7.e4 a6 8.a4 Bg4

Example line for strategy 2) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.cxd5 g6 7.h3 a6 8.a4 Qe7

Perhaps this is known to other members of the forum already, but this was news to me when I first read about it.
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #22 - 08/30/18 at 03:49:35
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/08/18 at 04:18:24:
Reloaded Weapons in the Benoni by Milos Pavlovic has a chapter on the "late Benoni".


I heard that this chapter fails to mention the challenging line with Nf3 and Bd3 without h3. Is that true?

Black can consider reaching the Late/Yugoslav Benoni from a King's Indian move order - get fianchettoed and castled first and only then decide whether to play ...c5 based on what White has done so far. It could still be viable against the Classical, the Fianchetto, Nge2 lines and Nf3+h3 (though TonyRo's reservations in the other thread are noted) for instance. (The Classical KID with 6.Be2 c5 of course requires Black to be ready for a Maroczy Bind as well.)
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #21 - 08/08/18 at 04:18:24
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Reloaded Weapons in the Benoni by Milos Pavlovic has a chapter on the "late Benoni".
  
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Stigma
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #20 - 08/07/18 at 12:08:02
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MNb wrote on 08/07/18 at 11:45:24:
https://www.modern-chess.com/en/chess-databases/database=6

No idea if the database is worth its money, but this advertisement has made me look at 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.e4 Bg7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.h3 e6/Na6/Re8.
Of course avoiding the Taimanov/Flick Knife also is a big plus.
Against two of White's most important systems, the Classical and the Counterfianchetto, Black still can transpose to the Modern Benoni.

We discussed that "Late Benoni" database a bit in this thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1522883731/10, mentioning some critical setups: Both Nf3/Bd3/h3 and Nf3/Bd3 without h3. I haven't really tried to bolster Black's cause there; currently thinking about the Modern Benoni instead, at least when White is committed to an early Nf3.
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #19 - 08/07/18 at 11:45:24
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Stigma wrote on 08/06/18 at 19:40:41:
So is Black getting a bit short of alternatives to the 9...b5 main line with the dreary but drawable 10.Bxb5 line?

That has been my impression for several decades. Several times it has motivated me to look at the Old Benoni as a transpositional tool. Last time this happened due to this advertisement:


https://www.modern-chess.com/en/chess-databases/database=6

No idea if the database is worth its money, but this advertisement has made me look at 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.e4 Bg7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.h3 e6/Na6/Re8.
Of course avoiding the Taimanov/Flick Knife also is a big plus.
Against two of White's most important systems, the Classical and the Counterfianchetto, Black still can transpose to the Modern Benoni.
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #18 - 08/06/18 at 19:40:41
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/06/18 at 03:55:28:
Looked at this again recently and Stockfish 9 gives White a pretty clear plus in all lines.  Black struggles to draw even with best play.  Sad since this variation was so exciting in many lines.


So is Black getting a bit short of alternatives to the 9...b5 main line with the dreary but drawable 10.Bxb5 line? I see that Petrov in his Benoni book claimed 9...Nh5 (after castling this time) was OK for Black. He also found the move order popularized by Watson with 7.Nf3 a6 8.a4 Bg4 acceptable, though there are some White move orders that sidestep that line.
  

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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #17 - 08/06/18 at 03:55:28
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Looked at this again recently and Stockfish 9 gives White a pretty clear plus in all lines.  Black struggles to draw even with best play.  Sad since this variation was so exciting in many lines.
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #16 - 08/19/10 at 12:42:00
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/18/10 at 17:35:15:
No one has commented yet on the analysis I presented above, but I'm sure I'm not alone in being a little uncomfortable with the Black position.  Particularly I'm not at all sure about Rybka's 23...h5 which it seemed to like so much.  Seems to take the flexibility out of the Black position.  I decided to try a relatively quick match between Stockfish (White) and Firebird and the game looks more like something I'd be willing to try out. 

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nf3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nc3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.h3 a6 9.a4 Nbd7 10.Bd3 Nh5 11.O-O Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.Bxf3 Qh4 14.Ra3! Be5 15.Re1 Nf6! [size=12][/size]16.Ne2 Nd7 17.g3 Qe7 18.a5 (my above comment had 18.Qc2 but White was bound to play this soon anyway) 18...0-0 19.Bg2 Bg7 20.Qc2 Ne5!? 21.f4 Nd7 22.g4 b5 23.axb6 Nxb6 24.e5 Rb8 25.Rd1 Bb7 26.Be3 Rfc8 27.Qb3 Nd7 28.exd6 Qxd6 29.Nc3 Ba8.

Rybka (3) is evaluating this is nearly perfectly equal for what it's worth.  Any thoughts?

Interesting! Maybe I was too quick to dismiss 16...Nd7. It somehow "feels" wrong as Black is losing lots of time with Nf6-h5-f6-d7, Qh4-e7, Bg7-e5-g7, and yet he seems to be OK (certainly in all the lines you gave)! Weird Shocked. As White, I'd be tempted to head straight for the central advance with 16...Nd7 17.g3 Qe7 (17...Qd8!?) 18.Bg2 0-0 19.f4 Bg7 20.Nc3, but I'm not sure whether it makes too much difference.

By the way, what do you make of Black's other option, i.e. the 14.Ra3 Be5 15.Re1 Nf4 16.a5 Nxh3+!? piece sac?
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #15 - 08/18/10 at 17:35:15
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No one has commented yet on the analysis I presented above, but I'm sure I'm not alone in being a little uncomfortable with the Black position.  Particularly I'm not at all sure about Rybka's 23...h5 which it seemed to like so much.  Seems to take the flexibility out of the Black position.  I decided to try a relatively quick match between Stockfish (White) and Firebird and the game looks more like something I'd be willing to try out. 

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nf3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nc3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.h3 a6 9.a4 Nbd7 10.Bd3 Nh5 11.O-O Ne5 12.Be2 Nxf3+ 13.Bxf3 Qh4 14.Ra3! Be5 15.Re1 Nf6! [size=12][/size]16.Ne2 Nd7 17.g3 Qe7 18.a5 (my above comment had 18.Qc2 but White was bound to play this soon anyway) 18...0-0 19.Bg2 Bg7 20.Qc2 Ne5!? 21.f4 Nd7 22.g4 b5 23.axb6 Nxb6 24.e5 Rb8 25.Rd1 Bb7 26.Be3 Rfc8 27.Qb3 Nd7 28.exd6 Qxd6 29.Nc3 Ba8.

Rybka (3) is evaluating this is nearly perfectly equal for what it's worth.  Any thoughts?
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #14 - 08/18/10 at 07:31:49
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[quote author=1F203D2C3A3C4F0 link=1277923036/3#3 date=1278098006][quote author=7C717C737A1D0 link=1277923036/1#1 date=1277935035]After 15...Nf6, 16.Ne2 could be a problem.

For example: 16...g5 17.g3 Qxh3 18.Bg2 Qh5 19.f4 gxf4 20.gxf4 Bxd4 21.Nxd4 Qxd1 22.Rxd1 cxd4 23.Rxd4 +/-[/quote]
I think you're right.  :(

White can play in a similar way against 16...0-0 as well, i.e. 17.g3 Qxh3 18.Bg2 Qh5 19.f4 Ng4 20.fxe5 Qh2+ 21.Kf1 Nxe5 22.Nf4 Bg4 23.Qd2! g5 (23...Nc4 24.Qc3 Nxa3 25.bxa3 looks good for White) 24.Kf2! and the threat of Rh1 sends Black packing.

I can see now that the rook on a3 performs a very useful defensive role along the 3rd rank - fortifying the sensitive h3 & g3 squares. White is preparing to push Black back with g3, Bg2, f4 without allowing dangerous sacs on h3/g3.

After 16.Ne2, maybe Black's best is the retrograde 16...Nd7, but this is a sign that it's all gone wrong for him. The problem bishop on c8 is as bad as ever.

Backing up a bit, perhaps Black should try 15...Nf4 (instead of 15...Nf6). :-/ [/quote]

I've been looking at the position after [b]16...Nd7[/b] some more and despite the undeveloped Bishop, Rybka 3 seems to think Black's doing OK.  For example:

[b]17.g3[/b] (17.Rb3 b5!? 18.axb5 axb5 19.Rxb5 0-0) [b]17...Qe7 18.Qc2 Bg7 19.a5 0-0 20.Bg2 Rb8 21.Bd2[/b] (21.g4 b5 22.axb6 Rxb6 23.b3 Re8 24.Ng3?! Qh4 25.Bd2 [if the Knight moves then Black has ...h5) 25...Bd4 26.Bc3 Rb4) [b]21...b5 22.axb6 Rxb6 23.b3 h5! 24.Nc1[/b] (Also looked at 24.Bc3 and 24.f4) [b]24...h4 25.g4 Bd4.[/b]  That's probably more than enough moves to start the refutation process.  Here Rybka and Firebird think Black's doing alright while Stockfish thinks White is doing rather well.  Certainly Black's position is more of a counterattacking nature, and while I'd rather have White if I had to try and win with Black this variation has more life than other anti-MML variations. 
  
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Re: Benoni - Modern Main Line: Nh5 without 0-0
Reply #13 - 08/17/10 at 21:39:38
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I had looked at 15.Bxh5 but missed your strong 16.Ne2! followup after which I haven't been able to find anything satisfactory for Black.  I have the Dangerous Weapons book so was familiar with the cunning ...Rg8 idea but I thought Black might be able to transpose to Watson's ...Nh5 ideas with 0-0 (with the inclusion of a4 and ...a6) but it just doesn't work here.  Back to the drawing board.
  
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