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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C03,C10-C11: Breaking in to Fort Knox (Read 12828 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #17 - 08/09/10 at 09:30:06
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Djy wrote on 08/08/10 at 14:25:07:
Very courageous because it's not easy to play with the king in the airstream and in your final position withe's knight seem to take out again and then withe is clearly better

"Courageous"...thank you for being diplomatic. On the next move Black can check White on f3 and prevent White from castling as well, but I do see what you mean.
« Last Edit: 08/09/10 at 16:08:58 by ReneDescartes »  
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Djy
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #16 - 08/08/10 at 14:25:07
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ReneDescartes wrote on 08/07/10 at 18:56:21:
but OTB I would probably venture it. Even if White finds 13.Ng5, Black certainly won't be mated quickly.


Very courageous because it's not easy to play with the king in the airstream and in your final position withe's knight seem to take out again and then withe is clearly better
  

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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #15 - 08/07/10 at 23:30:18
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Dzambus wrote on 08/06/10 at 08:28:25:
By the way, I would like to ask:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 d:e4 4.N:e4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5

and now some books give 6...Nd7 as weak move (?)
but does anybody know a clear way to white advantage after:

7.N:f7 K:f7 8.Ng5+ Ke8?

White can try 9.Bd3!? Qf6 (7...Ngf6 8.0-0 ; 7...Ndf6 8.Qe2) 10.0-0 Bd6 11.c4 but it's not a 'clear' way!
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #14 - 08/07/10 at 18:56:21
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I have been examining this (Gennochio-Foisor) sacrifice for about three hours on my own and with the aid of various engines.

It does look like White has sufficient compensation for the piece after all, but I don't think this is the sort of attack that plays itself. I usually play the Winawer or ...Nf6 Tarrasch, but I would be glad to defend this.  As chk pointed out, good defensive players flourish when they, well, defend.

After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3/d2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5 Bd6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.Ng5+ Ke8 9.Nxe6 Qf6 10.Bc4 b5(this move is useful in the line below since it makes room for the Bc6 to retreat and forces White to give up the f1-a6 diagonal) 11 Bb3, I would be strongly tempted to play, in place of the (probably objectively best) move 11...Qg6, the interesting line 11...Bxg2!? 12 Rg1 Qf3! (the point) when most White players would be shocked at such a rapid forced queen trade (13.Be2 is no longer possible because of ...b5, and 13.Qd2 is met by Qe4+). Many would develop the Bc1 or take the pawn on g6 with check. But these cede Black an advantage. The only good move is psychologically harder to find than the easy tactic it is based on would suggest, because White retreats a piece and actually forces the queen trade to happen on the very next move: 13.Ng5! which after 13...Qxd1 14.Kxd1 Bb7 (14...Nf6 Rxg2 gives White too much activity, e.g. 15.Nc6 Nf7 16.Rf8 Rxg7) 15.Nf7 Bxh2  16.Re1 Kf8 wins back a rook to go up the exchange in a mutually awkward "fourth stage" position.  Different engines evaluate this differently (Rybka is the kindest to Black, giving White less than a +.75-pawn advantage), but I think all engines underestimate the importance that Black's protected passed wing pawn will take on as the endgame coalesces. Honestly, I must admit I don't think Black has full compensation for the exchange, but OTB I would probably venture it. Even if White finds 13.Ng5, Black certainly won't be mated quickly.
« Last Edit: 08/07/10 at 22:37:43 by ReneDescartes »  
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TalJechin
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #13 - 08/07/10 at 09:02:04
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Fromper wrote on 08/07/10 at 04:17:24:
dmp4373 wrote on 08/07/10 at 01:35:02:
[quote author=0E302B27283F394A0 link=1280902611/10#10 date=1281079705]By the way, I would like to ask:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 d:e4 4.N:e4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5

and now some books give 6...Nd7 as weak move (?)
but does anybody know a clear way to white advantage after:

7.N:f7 K:f7 8.Ng5+ Ke8?
[/
Good question. McDonald talks about 6... Nd7 and even gives it a question mark indicating he believes it's a bad move. Yet, then goes on to say that it led to a quick draw in a game he played. After 8... Ke8 it went 9.Nxe6? (A ? but he doesn't say what he thinks is better) Qe7 10.Qe2 Kf7 11.Ng5+ Ke8 12.Ne6 Kf7 with a repetition.
My guess is that he thinks 6... Nd7 is worse than 6... Bd6 because it allows White to sac a piece and force a draw.

McDonald states in the note on the next page (89) that he thinks 9. Bc4! (his !) is better, because it gives white a strong initiative. But he doesn't follow that up with any specific moves or analysis, since his point is to focus on a better line for black, not give the details for white to attack the line that he's telling black players to avoid.

--Fromper


In his chesspub comments McD gives the game Kotronias-Franchini where white won with 9.Bc4!
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #12 - 08/07/10 at 04:17:24
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dmp4373 wrote on 08/07/10 at 01:35:02:
[quote author=0E302B27283F394A0 link=1280902611/10#10 date=1281079705]By the way, I would like to ask:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 d:e4 4.N:e4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5

and now some books give 6...Nd7 as weak move (?)
but does anybody know a clear way to white advantage after:

7.N:f7 K:f7 8.Ng5+ Ke8?
[/
Good question. McDonald talks about 6... Nd7 and even gives it a question mark indicating he believes it's a bad move. Yet, then goes on to say that it led to a quick draw in a game he played. After 8... Ke8 it went 9.Nxe6? (A ? but he doesn't say what he thinks is better) Qe7 10.Qe2 Kf7 11.Ng5+ Ke8 12.Ne6 Kf7 with a repetition.
My guess is that he thinks 6... Nd7 is worse than 6... Bd6 because it allows White to sac a piece and force a draw.

McDonald states in the note on the next page (89) that he thinks 9. Bc4! (his !) is better, because it gives white a strong initiative. But he doesn't follow that up with any specific moves or analysis, since his point is to focus on a better line for black, not give the details for white to attack the line that he's telling black players to avoid.

--Fromper
  

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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #11 - 08/07/10 at 01:35:02
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[quote author=0E302B27283F394A0 link=1280902611/10#10 date=1281079705]By the way, I would like to ask:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 d:e4 4.N:e4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5

and now some books give 6...Nd7 as weak move (?)
but does anybody know a clear way to white advantage after:

7.N:f7 K:f7 8.Ng5+ Ke8?
[/
Good question. McDonald talks about 6... Nd7 and even gives it a question mark indicating he believes it's a bad move. Yet, then goes on to say that it led to a quick draw in a game he played. After 8... Ke8 it went 9.Nxe6? (A ? but he doesn't say what he thinks is better) Qe7 10.Qe2 Kf7 11.Ng5+ Ke8 12.Ne6 Kf7 with a repetition.
My guess is that he thinks 6... Nd7 is worse than 6... Bd6 because it allows White to sac a piece and force a draw.
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #10 - 08/06/10 at 08:28:25
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By the way, I would like to ask:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 d:e4 4.N:e4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5

and now some books give 6...Nd7 as weak move (?)
but does anybody know a clear way to white advantage after:

7.N:f7 K:f7 8.Ng5+ Ke8?
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #9 - 08/05/10 at 13:33:34
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Another game with 7.Nxf7 is

Morozov-Kovalenko, Voronezh Region-ch 2008
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5 Bd6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.Ng5+ Ke8 9.Bd3 (varying from 9.Nxe6) 9...Nf6 10.0–0 Kd7 11.Re1 Re8 12.c4 Kc8 13.Nxe6 Rxe6 14.Bf5 Bd7 15.Bxe6 Bxe6 16.Rxe6 Nc6 17.d5 Nb8 18.Bg5 Nbd7 19.Qe2 a6 20.Re1 b6 21.a3 Kb7 22.b4 Ka7 23.Bh4 Nf8 24.Re3 Ng6 25.Bg3 Nf4 26.Bxf4 Bxf4 27.Re6 Kb7 28.Qf3 Bd6 29.c5 bxc5 30.bxc5 Bxc5 31.d6+ Ka7 32.dxc7 Qxc7 33.Qd3 Kb7 34.Qf3+ Ka7 35.Qd3 Kb7 36.Rb1+ Bb6 37.Qf3+ 1–0

Granted, Black was lower rated and didn't put up much resistance.
  

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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #8 - 08/05/10 at 11:39:40
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Paddy wrote on 08/05/10 at 11:07:03:
Although Black is probably OK if he plays accurately, these early complications with an airy black king are certainly not what I imagine your average Fort Knox player is seeking.

I claim no expertise in the FK whatsoever; so can someone better qualified say why Black is apparently supposed to play the slightly unnatural-looking 6...Bd6 after 6 Ng5? Is 6...Be7 really so bad?


Good question. White has a good score with 7.Bd3 but it seems black has resources too, e.g:

6. Neg5 Be7 7. Bd3 Nd7 8. Qe2 h6!? has scored well in two games, point being that 9. Nxe6?! doesn't impress due to 9...fxe6 10. Bg6+? (10. Qxe6 Nf8) 10... Kf8 11. Qxe6 Bb4+ 12. c3 Qe7

It's probably just that this is a quite unusual continuation and McDonald writing from the Black side and having little belief in a hack sac like Nxf7 probably just chose one line he liked for black and then went on to more popular lines.
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #7 - 08/05/10 at 11:07:03
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Although Black is probably OK if he plays accurately, these early complications with an airy black king are certainly not what I imagine your average Fort Knox player is seeking.

I claim no expertise in the FK whatsoever; so can someone better qualified say why Black is apparently supposed to play the slightly unnatural-looking 6...Bd6 after 6 Ng5? Is 6...Be7 really so bad?
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #6 - 08/05/10 at 01:42:45
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MNb wrote on 08/04/10 at 21:18:43:
Thanks, DMP. I am not completely convinced, but 7.Nxf7 looks interesting. It has been played in Genocchio-Foisor, Milan 2009: Kxf7 8.Ng5+ Ke8 9.Nxe6 Qh4 10.Nxg7+ iso 10.Bd3, which can be met with ....Bxg2 11.Nxg7+ Kf7 12.Nf5 Qh3 13.Rg1 Nc6.


After 7... Kxf7 8.Ng5+ Ke8 9.Nxe6 Qh4 10.Bd3 Bxg2, instead of 11.Nxg7+ I'd like to suggest 11.Bg5 Qh3 12.Qe2 with some serious threats to Black's king.
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #5 - 08/04/10 at 22:11:41
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Maybe black could try 8...Ke7!? offering to give back the piece for a roughly level but less volatile position, e.g: 9.Bc4 Bd5 10.Bxd5 Bb4+ 11.c3 Qxd5 12.cxb4 Qxg2 13.Rf1 Qd5

-- white could insist with 12.0-0 Bd6 13.Re1 Nf6 14.Nxe6 Kd7 but with the whitefielders off, black's king is probably safer than after 8...Ke8.
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #4 - 08/04/10 at 21:18:43
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Thanks, DMP. I am not completely convinced, but 7.Nxf7 looks interesting. It has been played in Genocchio-Foisor, Milan 2009: Kxf7 8.Ng5+ Ke8 9.Nxe6 Qh4 10.Nxg7+ iso 10.Bd3, which can be met with ....Bxg2 11.Nxg7+ Kf7 12.Nf5 Qh3 13.Rg1 Nc6.
  

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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #3 - 08/04/10 at 16:32:24
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I also have McDonald's book, and to practice the Fort Knox, I joined a Fort Knox themed correspondence tourney (books allowed) at chess.com a few months ago. I played this way in most of my games as white, and I got a couple of fun wins out of it. I also lost a couple of games, when I failed to get enough of an attack for the sacrificed material.

All in all, it seems like a fun way to play as white against this variation, even when it doesn't work. The biggest problem is that you just aren't going to face the Fort Knox very often.

  

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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #2 - 08/04/10 at 15:25:14
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After 9... Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nf6, I think 12.0-0 is much stronger than 12.Bg5. It contains the threat of 13.Re1 whereas 12.Bg5 merely looks to restrain by pin.

One more item to note is that McDonald says there are no games with 7.Nxf7 in his datebase and I can't find any in mine also. So the move may never have been played. Perhaps there is a good reason for that, but I can't see one yet.
  
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Re: Breaking in to Fort Knox
Reply #1 - 08/04/10 at 09:21:01
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Reminds me of the Cochrane vs. the Petroff (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nxf7). However, in the Cochrane White gets a central pawn mass (c,d,e,f pawns) that is directed against the King if it stays in the centre, and more importantly this mass is designed to take away any central outposts for the enemy Knights and Bishops. Here, with the e-file open, my gut feeling is that Black will have the mobility needed to utilise his/her extra piece.. Incidentally, 9. ... Qe7 seems to me like the most logical continuation but then Black may differ, e.g. (from the top of my head so don't be too harsh on me): 10. Bc4 b5 11. Bb3 Nf6 12. Bg5 Nbd7 13. d5 Bb7 14. O-O Nc5.

I couldn't make 12. Bg5 Bxg2? 13. Rg1 Bh3 14. BxNf6 work for Black.

Now your reasoning regarding the psychological effect may as well hold, but always remember that a good defender is never scared of a 'messy' or even 'ugly' position..  Cool
  

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C03,C10-C11: Breaking in to Fort Knox
08/04/10 at 07:16:51
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In his book 'how to play against 1.e4' McDonald says Neg5 attacking f7 is what scares Ft. Knox players the most. And gives this reason, "... black not only delays his kingside development for two moves whilst he puts the bishop on c6, but also because the bishop is moving away from the defense of the e6-square."

The Goldfinger Variation   
(seemed an appropriate name) Smiley

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3/d2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Neg5 Bd6 (McDonald says this is best) 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.Ng5+ Ke8 (McDonald says here that White doesn't have enough for the piece. I'm not so sure about that.) 9.Nxe6

1) 9... Qh4 10.Bd3 Qf6 11.0-0 Ne7 12.Re1 h6 13.c4 Bd7 14.d5 Na6

2) 9... Qf6 10.Bc4 Qg6 11.Ng5 Nh6 12.0-0 Kd8 13.Bd3 Qf6 14.c4

3) 9... Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Qh4 12.Nxg7+ Kd7 13.Qd3 Qe4+ 14.Qxe4 Bxe4

4) 9... Qd7 10.Bc4 Bxg2 11.Rg1 Qc6 12.Qe2 Bf3 13.d5 Bxe2 14.dxc6 Bxc4 15.cxb7 Bd5 16.bxa8Q Bxa8 17.Rxg7

White seems to be doing well in all variations. Another consideration is the nature of play, the Ft. Knox is played for a reason and a wild melee with black having a long desperate defense isn't one of them!

On ICC I once played the Ft. Knox in a blitz game. My opponent (white) resigned after 9 moves and said, "Why play chess? Just take a sleeping pill!"

The Goldfinger Variation gives the white player an opportunity to make life miserable for a black player looking for a safe and solid position.
« Last Edit: 07/22/11 at 18:29:22 by dom »  
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