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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Alapin: A rare move order for black (Read 9874 times)
Djy
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #14 - 08/20/10 at 09:39:04
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I would add
1)R/H consider the position (pade 70 note d: they said '7...Bg4!? may actually be black's most accurate theoretical option against 6.Be3'
2)if you have a defenitive view on Be2, you are lucky ,me not
3)i give an imrovement over R/H and some interesting line to explore but regret to do that Angry
  

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trw
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #13 - 08/20/10 at 06:19:46
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Please it wasn't off the top of my head. Just because i'm a weak player doesn't mean you have to rub it in. I spent some time staring at my old Alapin notes and seeing what I could come up at my board. I try to spend 3-4 hours a day on chess. Anyways the Alapin is ultimately not my cup of tea which is why I gave it up. I still believe something with 9. h3 could work. Unfortunately most of the books I have on the Alapin are from the black pov and very very very biased. The authors claim black is winning almost from move 2. Not sure why you make a thread if you are just going to belittle anyone who tries to help or interact on it.
« Last Edit: 08/20/10 at 07:19:54 by trw »  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #12 - 08/19/10 at 20:45:20
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trw wrote on 08/19/10 at 20:13:05:
kylemeister wrote on 08/19/10 at 19:19:27:
Well, Black would generally want to retake on b4 with the Knight in such positions.  Sveshnikov once gave this as his main line after 12...Qb4:  13. g4 Bg6 14. Qxb4 Nxb4 15. Nb5 Ke7! 16. Nxd6 Kxd6 17. Ne5 Nfd5 =/+.



You're clearly right that Nxb4 is stronger. Though I certainly don't see an edge for black in the line above (that may just be the difference between me and a strong player).

Still for the record I didn't say insert g4 first. I would wait until its clear g4 is useful hence why I traded queens first. I'll see if I can look at this line a little more in a few days to see if I can find something. Granted I don't actually play the Alapin much anymore. I never did see the suggested 7.. Bg4 played in the position they always went with the book recommendation  7.. e6


Hence the reason I started this thread, and the line Kylemeister posted, which was originally mentioned by Atalik, is partly the reason why ive stated that both 8.Be2 or 9.Be2 are harmless for Black.

On a side note, it never ceases to amaze how often people post off the top of their head solutions to complex questions, rather than taking the time to really consider the question and do some meaningful research and analysis.

If the answer for white was as simple as tranposing to the mainlinline: 1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 e6 which has been well known to offer white nothing for quite some years now, then I never would have started this thread.

Just sayin.

Tops Smiley   
  

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trw
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #11 - 08/19/10 at 20:13:05
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kylemeister wrote on 08/19/10 at 19:19:27:
Well, Black would generally want to retake on b4 with the Knight in such positions.  Sveshnikov once gave this as his main line after 12...Qb4:  13. g4 Bg6 14. Qxb4 Nxb4 15. Nb5 Ke7! 16. Nxd6 Kxd6 17. Ne5 Nfd5 =/+.



You're clearly right that Nxb4 is stronger. Though I certainly don't see an edge for black in the line above (that may just be the difference between me and a strong player).

Still for the record I didn't say insert g4 first. I would wait until its clear g4 is useful hence why I traded queens first. I'll see if I can look at this line a little more in a few days to see if I can find something. Granted I don't actually play the Alapin much anymore. I never did see the suggested 7.. Bg4 played in the position they always went with the book recommendation  7.. e6
  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #10 - 08/19/10 at 19:19:27
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Well, Black would generally want to retake on b4 with the Knight in such positions.  Sveshnikov once gave this as his main line after 12...Qb4:  13. g4 Bg6 14. Qxb4 Nxb4 15. Nb5 Ke7! 16. Nxd6 Kxd6 17. Ne5 Nfd5 =/+.
  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #9 - 08/19/10 at 19:01:23
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after 11... Bd6 12. Qb3 Qb4 13. Qxb4 Bxb4 14. a3 Be7 15. g4 Bg6 16. Ne5 I like white still.
  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #8 - 08/19/10 at 14:43:07
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trw wrote on 08/18/10 at 22:43:45:
Every position I can imagine after 9.. Bh5 is more than a small plus obtained with 9... Bxf3. I'd always want white after 9... Bh5 and I definitely prefer black's chances in 9...  Bxf3.

In my mind say 9... Bh5 10. Be2 e6 11. 0-0 Be7 (11... Bd6 12. Qb3) 12. Qb3 Qb6  13. g4 Bg6 (13... Qxb3 14. axb3 Bg6 15. Ne5 0-0 16. Bf3 should be a very large plus) 14. Ne5 0-0 15. Nxg6 hxg6 16. Rfd1 definitely is better for white.
And of course white doesn't have to play this way I see nothing wrong with 13. Rfd1 where 13... Qxb3 is still bad 14. axb3 Nd5 (14... 0-0 15. d5!) 15. Nxd5 exd5 16. g4 Bg6 17. Ne5 again a plus for white.

For 11.-Be7 completely agreed but 11.-Bd6 is far more complex.
12.Qb3 is the critical move Qb4 13.g4 Bg6 14.Ne5 R/H in our book said this move is impossible because of 14.-Nd4  but15.Bd4 Qd4 16.Nc4 and blacks seems have trouble
Of course 14.-Nd4 is not the only move , i have try 14.-Ke7;14.-Nd5 ;14.-Qb3 15.ab3 Ke7 ; 14...0-0 and 14.-Ne5 15.de5 Qb3 16.ab3 Be5 17.Bf3 I'm not sure white is better in all variations but without a doubt i would have the white side
  

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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #7 - 08/18/10 at 22:43:45
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Every position I can imagine after 9.. Bh5 is more than a small plus obtained with 9... Bxf3. I'd always want white after 9... Bh5 and I definitely prefer black's chances in 9...  Bxf3.

In my mind say 9... Bh5 10. Be2 e6 11. 0-0 Be7 (11... Bd6 12. Qb3) 12. Qb3 Qb6  13. g4 Bg6 (13... Qxb3 14. axb3 Bg6 15. Ne5 0-0 16. Bf3 should be a very large plus) 14. Ne5 0-0 15. Nxg6 hxg6 16. Rfd1 definitely is better for white.
And of course white doesn't have to play this way I see nothing wrong with 13. Rfd1 where 13... Qxb3 is still bad 14. axb3 Nd5 (14... 0-0 15. d5!) 15. Nxd5 exd5 16. g4 Bg6 17. Ne5 again a plus for white.
  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #6 - 08/18/10 at 21:30:29
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It's an error 10.d5 is interesting with Nc6 instead of Nf6
  

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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #5 - 08/18/10 at 20:35:04
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Djy wrote on 08/18/10 at 19:17:11:
Papageno wrote on 08/18/10 at 12:14:05:
1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 e6 8. O-O Nc6 9. Nc3 Qa5 10. h3 Bh5 11. Be3 Bd6 which now reached the same position as mentioned above. In other words, does White have any dangerous deviations here? if not, then this second move order would be my choice.

8.Nc3 Qa5 9.h3 Bh5 10.d5 is given as unclear so why not!

@Djy
Just asking for clarification. Did you really mean 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.h3 Bh5 10.d5!? (then, who is recommending this absolutely untested line?) or did you instead look at that line (one corr game from the 1970ies): 8. O-O Nc6 9. Nc3 Qa5 10. d5!? when Nxd5 11. Nxd5 Qxd5 12. Qa4 additionally hits the unprotected Bg4? I'm just wondering because the second line looks a bit more promising to me...
Thx!
  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #4 - 08/18/10 at 19:17:11
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Papageno wrote on 08/18/10 at 12:14:05:
I must admit that I never considered this rare move order
1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Nf6
although I've played a number of different setups with 2...d5 myself as Black. Looking at some games in the database I'd be quite happy to take the position after 6. Be3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bg4 8. Nc3 Qa5 9. h3 Bh5 (@trw) 10. Be2 e6 11. O-O Bd6 (@Djy)

Bd6 is a good improvement and this move is pointing with a ! in Rozentalis and Harley (page 67)

Quote:
However, I'm somewhat more concerned about 6. dxc5 Qxd1+ 7. Kxd1, maybe since I don't understand how to find the compensation here, and BTW 6. dxc5 Qxc5 7. Na3 e5 8. Be3 Qa5 9. Nc4 Qc7 10. Qa4 Bd7 11. Nb6 also doesn't look too appealing.

6.dc5 Qd1 7.Kd1 e6 8.b4 a5 and it's difficult to keep the pawn

Quote:
So, my question is now whether this rare move order really has any advantages for Black over the more traditional move order
1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 e6 8. O-O Nc6 9. Nc3 Qa5 10. h3 Bh5 11. Be3 Bd6 which now reached the same position as mentioned above. In other words, does White have any dangerous deviations here? if not, then this second move order would be my choice.

8.Nc3 Qa5 9.h3 Bh5 10.d5 is given as unclear
6.dc5!? was topical a few years ago but now i don't know the status of this move.
Maybe 2.d4 is a better move order Smiley
« Last Edit: 08/18/10 at 21:28:28 by Djy »  

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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #3 - 08/18/10 at 12:14:05
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I must admit that I never considered this rare move order
1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Nf6
although I've played a number of different setups with 2...d5 myself as Black. Looking at some games in the database I'd be quite happy to take the position after 6. Be3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bg4 8. Nc3 Qa5 9. h3 Bh5 (@trw) 10. Be2 e6 11. O-O Bd6 (@Djy)

However, I'm somewhat more concerned about 6. dxc5 Qxd1+ 7. Kxd1, maybe since I don't understand how to find the compensation here, and BTW 6. dxc5 Qxc5 7. Na3 e5 8. Be3 Qa5 9. Nc4 Qc7 10. Qa4 Bd7 11. Nb6 also doesn't look too appealing.

So, my question is now whether this rare move order really has any advantages for Black over the more traditional move order
1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 e6 8. O-O Nc6 9. Nc3 Qa5 10. h3 Bh5 11. Be3 Bd6 which now reached the same position as mentioned above. In other words, does White have any dangerous deviations here? if not, then this second move order would be my choice.
  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #2 - 08/18/10 at 02:28:59
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What about 8. Nc3 Qa5 9. h3 Bxf3 10. Qxf3 e6 11. Bb5 Rc8 12. 0-0

This looks like a small plus for white. A little pressure, the safer king for the moment and the bishop pair.
  
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Re: Alapin: A rare move order for black
Reply #1 - 08/17/10 at 19:36:48
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My nights are not haunted with that  Smiley but maybe white's position is a bit more easier after 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.Be2 e6 10.0-0 Be7 11.h3 Bh5 12.a3 0-0 13.Qb3
  

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Alapin: A rare move order for black
08/12/10 at 15:47:38
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The following question has occupied my thoughts off and on for some months now, namely, how does white fight for an advantage in the line that runs:

1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5  3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 Nc6  5.Nf3 Nf6 6. Be3 Theoretical sources recommend this move as a good way to avoid the ramifications of 6.dxc5 Qxd1!?, however all the books I’ve seen fail to consider what happens after:

6…cxd4  7. cd4 Bg4!? The sources Rozentalis & Harley, Palliser, Emms, Chandler, Collins and Gallagher all neglect to consider this move, focusing instead on 6…e6. Nevertheless I submit that the text poses more problems for white to show an edge.

8. Nc3!? The alternative 8. Be2 transposes to a well known and harmless line for Black.

8…Qa5! When again 9. Be2 is harmless following 9…e6 and 9. d5 is thwarted by 9. 0-0-0.

Anyone out there with experience in this variation?

Thoughts welcome.

Toppy Smiley 
  

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