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Poll closed Question: Should non-2.Nf3 lines be covered in PTP?
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Yes; transpositions chapter    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover all key lines briefly    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; handle in different chapters    
  3 (11.5%)
Yes; cover a few lines in detail    
  2 (7.7%)
No; this is Play the Petroff    
  12 (46.2%)
No; recommend other sources    
  3 (11.5%)




Total votes: 26
« Last Modified by: TN on: 10/12/10 at 12:56:00 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C42-C43: Play the Petroff by Har-Zvi and Gupta (Read 89758 times)
Ankit Gupta
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #53 - 10/09/10 at 15:23:42
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slates wrote on 10/09/10 at 08:20:26:
Hi Ankit
I'd like to ask about a couple of the Petroff lines you will be recommending;
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.dxe5 which move will you suggest from (presumably) either 5...Be7, 5...Nc5 or 5...Nc6.  ?

In the above line but after 5.Nxe5 will you be opting for 5...Nd7 instead of 5...Bd6. ?

Also, in the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 line, are you recommending 6...Nc6 or 6...Bd6, please? (If it is to be 6...Nc6, do you go for the line with a later ...Nb4, i.e. 7.0-0 Be7 8.c4 Nb4 or perhaps 8...Nf6 even?)

Thanks in advance if you are prepared to answer these for me.



We have not finalized line choices yet, and that is the input that we mainly want from the public. To ensure we are familiar with all the recent ideas in the various positions, we have preliminarily analyzed all lines for Black, but we will only emphasize one line per White's choices in the book.

In regards to your first question, after 5. Nxe5, we are leaning towards 5...Nd7 (which also unfortunately has the "forced" draw of 6. Nxf7). Would people prefer we instead give the 5...Bd6 line because it avoids the draw (even though it has other drawbacks)? Maybe if we could get a general poll on this, it would give us a better view on what people want.

And in regards to your second question, we are leaning towards Nc6 followed by Nb4. It is currently being played the most at the top level, and therefore, seems like the logical choice to suggest. That said, both GM Har-Zvi, and I decided it would be best to offer new ideas for Black to deviate earlier in that line (still after ...Nb4), and also deep within that line, so Black has multiple *new* options.

If people want us to cover other lines instead, please present the case for such, because line choices have not been finalized yet, and can be changed.


  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #52 - 10/09/10 at 15:14:40
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Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/09/10 at 15:09:26:
And in regards to insulting GM Har-Zvi and me; that's not a good way to likely get any questions posted by you answered by us in the future.


It'd be easier to skip over his posts. He doesn't represent most chesspub posters, and is doing a disservice to you seeking input from the people on here. He's been doing this shtick for awhile, unfortunately he's exposing you to it as well. It's remarkable he hasn't been banned to this point.

We appreciate the effort you've taken to garner input here, and most of us don't have our sense of chess revolve around Rybka and Fritz like he does in every thread he bothers with.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #51 - 10/09/10 at 15:09:26
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/09/10 at 04:23:12:
Quote:
The book that you're referring to is from 2004, I believe. Assessments and evaluations on openings change all the time over the span of a single year. So, over 6 years, the assessment of a certain variation may have changed. While you believe that the Modern Variation offers complete equality for Black, neither GM Har-Zvi nor I tend to agree with that assessment. Sure, I can post analysis on why we believe White maintains somewhat of a slight edge even after ...Be6 in that variation of the Modern King's Gambit, but at this point it will simply detract from the overall goal of this forum -- to better assess what viewers want from our book and to gather overall opinions of the general public.

I never said that the 3...Bc5 line against 2. d4 promised complete equality. I merely stated that both types of positions --- the Goring Gambit and King's Gambit, are rather unclear, and by logic, it's unclear how you can define one position as simply purely equals and another as slight edge for White.

It's a cop-out for us to simply list lines for Anti-Petroff's and suggest one look at various books that might cover those lines.

That said, I'm not completely abandoning the idea of including some sort of "Anti-Petroff" material (maybe only on lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff)


The King's Gambit is rarely played at high level so I wouldn't expect the assessments to change that much since the book was written.

Your reason for not posting analysis on the 6...Be6 line is the biggest cop out ever! I simply showed that 1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nxd5 6 0-0 is not slightly better for White as you claimed and is at least = for Black with 6...Be6 and your just to stubborn to admit it! If you really think it's slightly better for White, I'd really like to see your analysis because GM Larry Kaufman and I think it's clearly at least = for Black.

While the King's Gambit and Goring Gambit can both be pretty unclear, working your way through the complications shows that the King's Gambit is = and the ...Bc5 line Goring Gambit is slightly better for White. 

I think it would be a cop out to analyze White's non 2 Nf3 lines in an insufficient amoung of detail like your considering doing. I think it would be better to analyze them sufficiently or not analyze them at all.

If your not going to analyze any of White's non 2 Nf3 lines, then a reader will have to consult books that do cover White's non 2 Nf3 lines so I think it would be a good idea to simply suggest the best way to meet White's non 2 Nf3 lines (suggesting lines that fit with Petroff when appropriate) and which books cover these lines best with the caveat that the analysis in these books might not be fully up to date and the reader shouldn't blindly follow what the books say but simply use them as a guide and do there own research.

Including only lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff sems like a complete cop out to me.


It's not conducive to getting advice to the relevant material to discuss King's Gambit material.

I don't have the book you refer to in front of me, so I looked at the high level games after the ...Be6 variation and explained reasonings based on them for why White has a slight advantage.

While I rarely play the King's Gambit, at one point, I analyzed it in great detail with GM Har-Zvi, so these comments reflect the opinion of both of us.

Short analysis below:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 exf4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nxd5 6. O-O Be6 {Kaufman's
suggestion.} 7. Bb3 Be7 8. c4 Nb6 9. d4 Nxc4 {The theoretical line that
supposedly gives equality for Black.} 10. Nc3 Nb6 (10... c6 {Shulman - Onishuk,
2003} 11. Re1 N {With the idea of Rxe6 and pressure on the c4 square.} b5
12. a4 ! {Black's position comes quickly under fire. It's hard for Black to
activate his pieces and finish develop in a manner that will not give White a
small edge.}
) 11. d5 Bg4 {Federov - Goloshchapov, 2001. Many books assess Bg4
as the move to equalize.} 12. Bxf4 {Thematically if you look at this position
what you have is an IQP where White no longer has an f-pawn, and Black no
longer has an e-pawn. A great book, titled, "Winning Pawn Structures" by
Alexander Baburin details these types of positions. It's never possible to state that such a position is purely equals. One can say it is balanced, but
White's space and activity give him the short-term middlegame prospects. This
type of IQP position (without the White f-pawn and Black e-pawn) is better
than the standard IQP position for White, as he has more lines to attack with.}
O-O 13. Qe1 N {The shift of the queen from d1 to g3 is uncommon in the IQP
type positions, but an important one as it's not clear how Black can achieve
complete equality here.} Na6 {Necessary because after Qg3, White will have
pressure on c7.} 14. Qg3 Bf5 (
14... Bh5 {This bishop move does not offer Black equality either.} 15. Rad1 Bd6
{Out-posting the piece in front of the d5 pawn is the most logical continuation.
} 16. Ne4 Nc8 {Necessary due to the pressure on d6.} 17. Nfg5 ! Bg6
(17...
Bxd1 18. Bxd6 Nxd6
(18... cxd6 19. Nf6+ Kh8 20. Nfxh7 Bh5 21. Qh4 {And Black's
position is completely lost.})
19. Nf6+ Qxf6 20. Rxf6 Bxb3 21. Qd3 {Forcing g6, at which point White can recapture the bishop on b3 with the a-pawn and enjoy a significant edge}) 18. Bc2 {
Maneuvering the bishop to this new diagonal is very logical as it had no
realistic prospects on the closed a2-g8 diagonal.} Bxf4 19. Rxf4 Nd6 20. Nxh7
!! Nxe4
(20... Bxh7 21. Nf6+ Qxf6 22. Bxh7+ Kxh7 23. Rxf6 gxf6 24. Qh4+ {With
mate soon to follow.})
21. Qxg6 ! fxg6 22. Rxf8+ Kxh7 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Bxe4 {
This resulting endgame slightly favors White, even with the IQP because of the
weakness of the c7 pawn, and the doubled g-pawns.})
15. Rad1 {White has achieved full development.}
Nc8 {The other option is for Black to maneuver his knight from b6 to d6.
However, this leads to an edge for White on different grounds.} (15... Bd6 {
It's a common motif to outpost a piece in front of the IQP. First, we can look
at why using the bishop may lead to some sort of edge for White.} 16. Nh4 Bg6
17. Nb5 {If you look at this position it's actually very hard to find a good
move for Black. Black is quite cramped and White has several options for
improving his piece placement.}
) 16. d6 ! {The purpose is to open diagonals
for White's pieces. Very common thematic sacrifice in the IQP} Nxd6 17. Ne5 {Sacrifices against f7 are in the air.} Be6 {
Logical for Black to contest the pressure on f7 in some way.} (17... Bg6 ?? {
Obviously not this.} 18. Nxg6 hxg6 19. Qxg6 {Simply wins for White.}
) 18. Bh6
Bf6 {Forced.} 19. Bc2 {Where Black will likely have to acquiesce to g6 and
sacrifice the exchange.} *

...

It's kind of hard to read because of the way the formatting happens when you post CB text into this forum, so I've just colored the short sidelines in red (sidelines within sidelines in pink, and so on in blue).

Sure, Black can deviate with several other options, but all I'm trying to say is, this position is far from as simple as you believe it is, and Black has to strive hard to show semblance of full equality.

And in regards to insulting GM Har-Zvi and me; that's not a good way to likely get any questions posted by you answered by us in the future.

It's important to note that just because Rybka gives an evaluation as =, a position is not necessary =. Many types of positions (IQP, etc), take a very long time for Rybka to fully evaluate correctly.

This will be my last post in regards to the King's Gambit in this forum.
« Last Edit: 10/09/10 at 17:33:27 by Ankit Gupta »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #50 - 10/09/10 at 14:07:51
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/09/10 at 04:23:12:
The King's Gambit is rarely played at high level so I wouldn't expect the assessments to change that much since the book was written.

Your reason for not posting analysis on the 6...Be6 line is the biggest cop out ever!


Listen up - your schtick has gotten old here already. Pay attention to the thread title. This book is going to be about the Petroff, this isn't some repertoire book about 1. e4 e5 in general, so he has no responsibility to address your concerns about the King's Gambit, or post analysis he's done on other openings to appease your desires.

If some titled player disagrees with the assessment Kaufman made then you should try to figure out exactly where it occurs instead of being lazy and whining about them not posting it.

Quote:
If your not going to analyze any of White's non 2 Nf3 lines, then a reader will have to consult books that do cover White's non 2 Nf3 lines so I think it would be a good idea to simply suggest the best way to meet White's non 2 Nf3 lines (suggesting lines that fit with Petroff when appropriate) and which books cover these lines best with the caveat that the analysis in these books might not be fully up to date and the reader shouldn't blindly follow what the books say but simply use them as a guide and do there own research.


It is not a 1. e4 e5 repertoire book, so it is not a cop-out.

Not covering the Nimzo-Indian and Catalan in a Queen's Indian Defense book is normal so the Petroff is no different. The author has no responsibility to do so. People that desire material about certain defenses do not want space wasted when there is already enough to be covered in the opening under review.

Period.

If you want information on those openings get a general repertoire book, or a general openings resource. Failing that, do your own damn research that doesn't just rely on, "Rybka and Fritz say...".
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #49 - 10/09/10 at 12:45:20
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I think that this book is timely as it's about time that the supreme anti 1e4 defence had a book on it.
One question 5nc3  everyone plays nxc3 but is nf6 so bad ?
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #48 - 10/09/10 at 12:38:40
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/05/10 at 10:19:39:
In Yusupov's trilogy "Build up your Chess" there is a chapter about the Petroff and a usefull improvement over Kotronias' analysis in his "Beating the Petroff". Also i found Shirov's DVD very usefull when i wanted to study 2...Nf6 (especially those Nc3-Nxc3 lines). And if you want to say something about 2.Bc4 you can check Emms' recent "Beating 1.e4 e5" book (Yusupov also says something about this in his Buld Up").

Also electronic souces should be checked. Marin had an CBM article about 2.Bc4 (and Vigorito on the same subject at chesslectures.com) and GM Skembris in a recent CBM he analysed an interesting ...Nd6 sideline for Black. Also i'd like very very much to see a KG suggestion from you. Not too much space needed and shows respect for the reader needs.


How do you have access to all these sources, are you an editor or Bill Gates?

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #47 - 10/09/10 at 12:19:20
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To me the real problem for the practical player with Black is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2. Surely it´s possible to outplay a weaker opponent, but it´s difficult and hardly much fun.

What do you intend to suggest in your book here?
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #46 - 10/09/10 at 09:30:40
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Ankit, I am very saddened to hear that you will not address the most dangerous Anti-Petroff, 1.d4.

Endali, the Cochrane is not scary at all provided you know your theory. ECO C's coverage plus some practice games defending Black's position against a computer should be sufficient.
  

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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #45 - 10/09/10 at 08:47:57
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I'd like to apologize to Mr. Gupta on behalf of a few of the rest of us. You are clearly looking for input on your book on the Petroff, and there is no reason for you to be accosted for failing to address the King's Gambit and the Goring to the satisfaction of certain posters. You should be applauded for seeking the input of your target audience in such a fashion.

I have the same questions as Slates posted above, actually.

My only request is regarding the Cochrane gambit - at amateur level, this is one of the most common white responses to the Petroff that I face. And it's rather difficult to find high-level examples to use as a model for Black. If you could cover this line in some depth and somehow get me to feel confident when faced with the Cochrane, I would be forever grateful. At the moment, I'm waaaay more scared of the Cochrane than I am of the slight endgame edge that White can get in certain main lines. And I think I'm speaking for many amateur Petroff players.  Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #44 - 10/09/10 at 08:20:26
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Hi Ankit
I'd like to ask about a couple of the Petroff lines you will be recommending;
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.dxe5 which move will you suggest from (presumably) either 5...Be7, 5...Nc5 or 5...Nc6.  ?

In the above line but after 5.Nxe5 will you be opting for 5...Nd7 instead of 5...Bd6. ?

Also, in the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 line, are you recommending 6...Nc6 or 6...Bd6, please? (If it is to be 6...Nc6, do you go for the line with a later ...Nb4, i.e. 7.0-0 Be7 8.c4 Nb4 or perhaps 8...Nf6 even?)

Thanks in advance if you are prepared to answer these for me.

  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #43 - 10/09/10 at 06:58:24
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I realy think we should discuss the forthcoming petroff book a nd not the kings gambit !
I would like to thank Mr Gupta for his kindness to discuss his book in this forum. I think it is a good sign if an author tries to be in contact with his readers !
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #42 - 10/09/10 at 04:23:12
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Quote:
The book that you're referring to is from 2004, I believe. Assessments and evaluations on openings change all the time over the span of a single year. So, over 6 years, the assessment of a certain variation may have changed. While you believe that the Modern Variation offers complete equality for Black, neither GM Har-Zvi nor I tend to agree with that assessment. Sure, I can post analysis on why we believe White maintains somewhat of a slight edge even after ...Be6 in that variation of the Modern King's Gambit, but at this point it will simply detract from the overall goal of this forum -- to better assess what viewers want from our book and to gather overall opinions of the general public.

I never said that the 3...Bc5 line against 2. d4 promised complete equality. I merely stated that both types of positions --- the Goring Gambit and King's Gambit, are rather unclear, and by logic, it's unclear how you can define one position as simply purely equals and another as slight edge for White.

It's a cop-out for us to simply list lines for Anti-Petroff's and suggest one look at various books that might cover those lines.

That said, I'm not completely abandoning the idea of including some sort of "Anti-Petroff" material (maybe only on lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff)


The King's Gambit is rarely played at high level so I wouldn't expect the assessments to change that much since the book was written.

Your reason for not posting analysis on the 6...Be6 line is the biggest cop out ever! I simply showed that 1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nxd5 6 0-0 is not slightly better for White as you claimed and is at least = for Black with 6...Be6 and your just to stubborn to admit it! If you really think it's slightly better for White, I'd really like to see your analysis because GM Larry Kaufman and I think it's clearly at least = for Black.

While the King's Gambit and Goring Gambit can both be pretty unclear, working your way through the complications shows that the King's Gambit is = and the ...Bc5 line Goring Gambit is slightly better for White. 

I think it would be a cop out to analyze White's non 2 Nf3 lines in an insufficient amoung of detail like your considering doing. I think it would be better to analyze them sufficiently or not analyze them at all.

If your not going to analyze any of White's non 2 Nf3 lines, then a reader will have to consult books that do cover White's non 2 Nf3 lines so I think it would be a good idea to simply suggest the best way to meet White's non 2 Nf3 lines (suggesting lines that fit with Petroff when appropriate) and which books cover these lines best with the caveat that the analysis in these books might not be fully up to date and the reader shouldn't blindly follow what the books say but simply use them as a guide and do there own research.

Including only lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff sems like a complete cop out to me.
« Last Edit: 10/09/10 at 05:30:38 by Anonymous3 »  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #41 - 10/09/10 at 03:26:03
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Anonymous3 wrote on 10/08/10 at 21:08:04:
To recommend a weaker move just because it is less complicated or fits in better with the rest of the repertoire would be more of an injustice to the reader. The main lines of the King's Gambit Accepted are generally considered to be ok for White so I'm not talking about recommending the main lines of the accepted in that case, I'm talking about unsound gambits like the Danish and Goring. You don't have to tell a player to turn on a computer and analyze the position in more depth themselves, you can refer them to other books where the lines are examined in more detail. 

I agree with SWJediknight that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 Nf3 Bb4+! (As I've already stated I think this is the best move as it leaves Black slightly better, avoids going into the Scotch Game with 3...Nc6, and 3...Bc5?! 4 c3! dxc3 5 Nxc3 is an improved version of the Goring Gambit and is slightly better for White) 4 c3 dxc3 5 Nxc3 is going to be a Goring Gambit Accepted so if your going to allow this there is no point in not recommending accepting the Danish Gambit.

The general consensus is that in the ...Bc5 line of the Goring Gambit White is slightly better and that the Modern Variation of the King's Gambit is =. Ankit, I don't know why you would be surprised by that.

Cox recommends declining the Blackmar-Diemer 3...e5 but this is also considered to refute the gambit just like accepting it does. So if you have a choice of gaining an advantage by acceptiong or declining a gambit, declining the gambit makes sense because it avoids the more complicated accepted variations and you still regain an edge. However, most of the 1 e4 e5 gambits are refuted by accepting and declining allows White equality.

1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 exd5 exf4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nxd5 6 O-O now simply 6...Be6, as recommend by Larry Kaufman in his book "The Chess Advantage in Black and White, is at least = for Black.

I think the best book to consult for White's alternatives to 2 Nf3 would be The Chess Advantage in Black and White. I think it's by a pretty good margin the best 1 e4 e5 repertoire book for Black.


The book that you're referring to is from 2004, I believe. Assessments and evaluations on openings change all the time over the span of a single year. So, over 6 years, the assessment of a certain variation may have changed. While you believe that the Modern Variation offers complete equality for Black, neither GM Har-Zvi nor I tend to agree with that assessment. Sure, I can post analysis on why we believe White maintains somewhat of a slight edge even after ...Be6 in that variation of the Modern King's Gambit, but at this point it will simply detract from the overall goal of this forum -- to better assess what viewers want from our book and to gather overall opinions of the general public.

I never said that the 3...Bc5 line against 2. d4 promised complete equality. I merely stated that both types of positions --- the Goring Gambit and King's Gambit, are rather unclear, and by logic, it's unclear how you can define one position as simply purely equals and another as slight edge for White.

The more I think about it (and GM Har-Zvi tends to agree with this) adding "Anti-Petroff" material will seemingly detract from the themes and ideas we are trying to illustrate in the various Petroff chapters.

It's a cop-out for us to simply list lines for Anti-Petroff's and suggest one look at various books that might cover those lines.

If we based such a brief section on your method of approach, I'll explain what major problem one could run into.

Imagine if a hypothetical opponent assumed you used our Petroff book for your 1. e4 repertoire. Now assume we had listed lines for the "Anti-Petroff's" and books to refer to for them. No current book exists on Anti Petroff material; all said books are rather old, so we'd have to select from those choices. Any old book will likely have some known theoretical flaw, and indirectly we'd basically be advocating you learn such and setting you up to fail. And if we suggested you even further check lines with a computer, we are truly doing injustice to a reader (for the aforementioned reasons in my earlier post).

While we can try our best to prevent any errors for entering our book, we cannot change lines in old books, and fix them of errors that we believe exist; and therefore simply suggesting one look at another book and listing that book is not really helpful.

That said, I'm not completely abandoning the idea of including some sort of "Anti-Petroff" material (maybe only on lines that will be somewhat stylistically similar to the Petroff), but for now, it really makes no sense for us to discuss semantics of the King's Gambit in regards to a Petroff book forum.
  
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Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #40 - 10/09/10 at 02:34:48
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Man this topic got off topic FAST. Way to go Anon3.

Moderator?!

Kudos to Ankit for keeping good sense of calm and professionalism.

I would have to say putting anything other than Petroff would be off topic and waste of time.
  
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Joined: 08/01/05
Re: Play the Petroff by Ronen Har-Zvi and Ankit Gupta
Reply #39 - 10/09/10 at 02:12:22
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it's a Petroff book.
  
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