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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repertoire for Black in the Catalan... (Read 70389 times)
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #36 - 10/18/10 at 12:07:40
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Well said, Stigma.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #35 - 10/18/10 at 12:01:40
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Glad to see you guys are now sticking to variations and assessments instead of name-calling!

So two people disagree about what should be called "new", "old" and "critical". Big deal! It doesn't make either an idiot.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #34 - 10/18/10 at 11:57:58
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Yes. Well in that particular position I'd like to take on c4 myself. I've just downloaded the Avrukh update from the website and the first thing that struck me is this line, without going through the whole thing yet this looks like something I'd be happy with:

Its a bit confusing because the check move-order adds a move, but I'll use this move-order:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 c6 7. O-O O-O 8. Qc2 Nbd7
9. Nc3 dxc4 10. Bg5 h6 11. Ne4 hxg5!? "N" - Avrukh
12. Nxd6 Nb6 13. Nxc8 Rxc8 14. Rfd1 g4 15. Ne5

(Here Avrukh stops saying something like- "White regains his pawn and has superiority of the Bishop v the Knight")

I think Black can make use of the h-file here and in general should be comfortable. The White bishop for the moment is not biting on anything with the Black pawn on c6. Lets continue a bit:

15...Qe7 16. Nxc4 Nxc4 17. Qxc4 and now it seems like there are 2 decent plans:

a) 17...Rfd8 followed by doubling on the d-file and an eventual ...e5

b) 17...g6!? intending to put the king on the nice g7 square and open the possibility of ...Rh8 using the h-file.

Over-all this line seems reliable enough to me from Blacks point of view, I'd certainly be happy playing it over the board. I believe White has better options than going in for this type of thing.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #33 - 10/18/10 at 11:24:22
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Keano wrote on 10/18/10 at 11:14:07:
Crikey, this is like talking to child, can you try calming down a bit and maybe sometimes open yourself to the possibility that once in a while you might even be wrong about stuff? And also recognize your books might also be wrong.  I mean if you're always right you must be a GM by now? You're not going to get any more rating points by acting smart on this forum.


Grin

Quote:
Now for the chess part, the 2 systems are different because without the check White has a strong move Nf3-d2 after ...0-0.


Yes, the move order avoids that option, much like 5...Be7 avoids certain options for white when compared to the standard Closed Catalan. That's not relevant to the concrete position being discussed.

Quote:
But, if I can read in between all your hyperbole you are saying that in the system with the check 9.Nc3 is the critical move (even though more top players have been playing 9.Bg5), because Black has nothing better than 9...dxc4 transposing to some analysis by Avrukh in the other line - right?. Well obviously in that particular position (White queen on c2 and Nc3) ...dxc4 is a decent move I would have thought (although not forced - maybe ...b6 is possible) because its winning a pawn and the central response is met by ...e5. Thats a very specific position which as yet I've not come up against.
What intrigues me is Avrukh is recommending this for White - I would have thought this line was better for Black than the other ones he has to contend with, OK I know hes recommending it from a different position but still. I'll have to get hold of the Avrukh analysis to check what hes on about but for now I'd remain confident that Black is reliable enough there.


Unless black can demonstrate something other than 9...dxc4 10. Bg5, it's a position Avrukh recommends for white all the same.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #32 - 10/18/10 at 11:14:07
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Quote:
The position you got twice is the same as 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 c6 5. Bg2 Bd6 6. 0-0 Nbd7 7. Qc2 0-0 8. Bg5 - not a critical line.


Crikey, this is like talking to child, can you try calming down a bit and maybe sometimes open yourself to the possibility that once in a while you might even be wrong about stuff? And also recognize your books might also be wrong.  I mean if you're always right you must be a GM by now? You're not going to get any more rating points by acting smart on this forum.

Now for the chess part, the 2 systems are different because without the check White has a strong move Nf3-d2 after ...0-0.

But, if I can read in between all your hyperbole you are saying that in the system with the check 9.Nc3 is the critical move (even though more top players have been playing 9.Bg5), because Black has nothing better than 9...dxc4 transposing to some analysis by Avrukh in the other line - right?. Well obviously in that particular position (White queen on c2 and Nc3) ...dxc4 is a decent move I would have thought (although not forced - maybe ...b6 is possible) because its winning a pawn and the central response is met by ...e5. Thats a very specific position which as yet I've not come up against.
What intrigues me is Avrukh is recommending this for White - I would have thought this line was better for Black than the other ones he has to contend with, OK I know hes recommending it from a different position but still. I'll have to get hold of the Avrukh analysis to check what hes on about but for now I'd remain confident that Black is reliable enough there.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #31 - 10/18/10 at 10:55:34
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ghenghisclown wrote on 10/18/10 at 10:47:46:
Isn't a critical line one that challenges the variation such that it's the toughest and one which gives the other side (usually gives Black) the most problems?


Right.

Quote:
In this case, I'm having trouble understanding whats wrong with saying that Bg5 is critical "among many" if it's critical for that particular line (without Bb4+ as you pointed out).


It's not critical in that variation, that was the point. 9. Bg5 (or 8. Bg5 if Bb4-d6 and Bd2-g5 aren't included) has never been viewed as threatening to black's set-up theoretically.

Quote:
Or is critical for you just mean the sharpest/most challenging for both sides?


Critical, in this particular case, meaning black is under pressure to demonstrate equality based on existing analysis/games. In this case the analysis happens to be Avrukh's, since in the position after 9. Nc3 every single game in the www.chesslive.de database (which gets updated regularly) has seen black play 9...dxc4, transposing to Avrukh's analysis of the position after 10. Bg5, one he analyzes to a white advantage.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #30 - 10/18/10 at 10:47:46
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Isn't a critical line one that challenges the variation such that it's the toughest and one which gives the other side (usually gives Black) the most problems?

In this case, I'm having trouble understanding whats wrong with saying that Bg5 is critical "among many" if it's critical for that particular line (without Bb4+ as you pointed out).

Or is critical for you just mean the sharpest/most challenging for both sides?
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #29 - 10/18/10 at 08:36:32
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Keano wrote on 10/18/10 at 07:43:49:
Oh my god. Are you really serious? This is like a Monthy Python sketch trying to create an argument. -its a new idea to me and I stand by it! I doubt very much you've much of a handle on this system at all from what I can make of your comments, and are probably quite a weak player - sorry but you asked for it. If you're looking for a fight you picked the wrong man! As for the ideas - you mentioned ....dxc4 is NOT a typical idea in the system at all. For what its worth in both my games the players picked the same continuation and both were reasonable players one an IM and one as good as:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 c6 7. O-O Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Bg5 h6 10. Bxf6 Nxf6 11. Nbd2


9. Bg5 is a transposition to a line without Bb4+ included.

The position you got twice is the same as 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 c6 5. Bg2 Bd6 6. 0-0 Nbd7 7. Qc2 0-0 8. Bg5 - not a critical line.

Quote:
This is one of the critical positions amongst many, and one you're very likely to get if you play the line. Now I've wasted enough time dealing with your rubbish, sorry I even tried to help the original poster out now will keep my ideas to myself in future to avoid abuse by cabbages with their head stuck in books who couldnt play a decent game of chess if their life depended on it.


It's not even a critical line. You really need to learn what you're talking about, that way the next time you make an informed opinion about this variation it'll be your first time.

And to enlighten you - the critical continuation is 9. Nc3 when black has to either allow e4 next move,  play 9...dxc4 which transposes to Avrukh's analysis after 10. Bg5, because 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 c6 5. Bg2 Nbd7 6. 0-0 Bd6 7. Nc3 dxc4 8. Bg5 0-0 9. Qc2 is the exact same position Avrukh analyzed in his update, or play a waiting move like 9...Re8 that does little for black's position.

Just to slam the door shut on your comment about dxc4 - it's the most common move by far in the database after 9. Nc3 including games where black is a GM. So much for it not being a typical idea. Grin

Go figure I had to enlighten you again on theory. It's getting old.
« Last Edit: 10/18/10 at 09:36:55 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #28 - 10/18/10 at 07:43:49
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/17/10 at 21:37:07:
Keano wrote on 10/17/10 at 20:02:29:
I think you're fighting a losing argument trying to call it an old idea.


The idea of Bb4-d6 is even older than the Utasi games - it's been used in a slightly different move order going as far back as 1961 (black playing c6 before Bb4-Bd6).

The Utasi move order isn't new. The idea of Bb4-d6 isn't new. The position isn't new. The ideas in the positions from GM games aren't new.

All that's new is interest from GMs of late. If you actually take the time to study those GM games you'd quickly find the ideas being used by both sides have been used many times before in the lines with Bd6 without Bb4+ with transpositions being extremely common.

Of course, I have a feeling you'll persist with your "it's new" nonsense, when you'd be better off with this:  Lips Sealed

Quote:
Ultimately there is nothing new in chess but a couple of old games from 1985 and then nothing... we've seen this a million times over in other openings. Actually my database has only one not especially relevant game from Utasi in 1985, but I'll trust you there is another one - could you let me know the other Utasi game, like to add it to my database  Wink Anyway, back to the subject, even the jokers in chessbase trying to flog us dodgy DVDs that dont play on the telly call it new. Anyway if its such an old idea how is that Avrukh missed it? In 2010 we have seen a flurry of high level games in this line, so I think you get my drift.


Avrukh missed the more common line with Bd6 at first until it was brought to his attention. He isn't infallible, so why are you going to act like that's an argument?

Chessbase is trying to sell a product, what do you think they're going to call it?

A line becoming suddenly popular doesn't make it new, either. It makes it popular. The difference is obvious.

Quote:
As for the rest of the comments on the themes etc. I'm forced to disagree - too specific, the ideas are not as you say, although no doubt it could be one possibility. Anyway its not the way I play the line, and so far my method has stood up to the test against strong opposition.


I mentioned the critical ideas used in GM play against white's primary responses. You'd know this if you had studied the games.

Quote:
Granted it could be an approach no doubt, in which case it is further evidence of my general impression so far - the whole line is full of rich possibilities for both sides at this moment.


Not really. Your mystery approach aside, the methods of play are well established in GM play.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. d4 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 0-0 7. 0-0 Nbd7 (7...c6 7. Qc2 Nbd7 8. Nc3 dxc4 9. Bg5 ends up in Avrukh's analysis of ...Bd6 without Bb4+) 8. Qc2 is going to quickly end up back in normal waters.

Play only gets "rich" when white varies with Qb3, Qc2+Rd1, or Bf4.

Of course, there's always your mystery method unknown to the world that's worked against "strong opposition".  Roll Eyes


Oh my god. Are you really serious? This is like a Monthy Python sketch trying to create an argument. -its a new idea to me and I stand by it! I doubt very much you've much of a handle on this system at all from what I can make of your comments, and are probably quite a weak player - sorry but you asked for it. If you're looking for a fight you picked the wrong man! As for the ideas - you mentioned ....dxc4 is NOT a typical idea in the system at all. For what its worth in both my games the players picked the same continuation and both were reasonable players one an IM and one as good as:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 c6 7. O-O Nbd7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Bg5 h6 10. Bxf6 Nxf6 11. Nbd2

This is one of the critical positions amongst many, and one you're very likely to get if you play the line. Now I've wasted enough time dealing with your rubbish, sorry I even tried to help the original poster out now will keep my ideas to myself in future to avoid abuse by cabbages with their head stuck in books who couldnt play a decent game of chess if their life depended on it.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #27 - 10/17/10 at 21:37:07
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Keano wrote on 10/17/10 at 20:02:29:
I think you're fighting a losing argument trying to call it an old idea.


The idea of Bb4-d6 is even older than the Utasi games - it's been used in a slightly different move order going as far back as 1961 (black playing c6 before Bb4-Bd6).

The Utasi move order isn't new. The idea of Bb4-d6 isn't new. The position isn't new. The ideas in the positions from GM games aren't new.

All that's new is interest from GMs of late. If you actually take the time to study those GM games you'd quickly find the ideas being used by both sides have been used many times before in the lines with Bd6 without Bb4+ with transpositions being extremely common.

Of course, I have a feeling you'll persist with your "it's new" nonsense, when you'd be better off with this:  Lips Sealed

Quote:
Ultimately there is nothing new in chess but a couple of old games from 1985 and then nothing... we've seen this a million times over in other openings. Actually my database has only one not especially relevant game from Utasi in 1985, but I'll trust you there is another one - could you let me know the other Utasi game, like to add it to my database  Wink Anyway, back to the subject, even the jokers in chessbase trying to flog us dodgy DVDs that dont play on the telly call it new. Anyway if its such an old idea how is that Avrukh missed it? In 2010 we have seen a flurry of high level games in this line, so I think you get my drift.


Avrukh missed the more common line with Bd6 at first until it was brought to his attention. He isn't infallible, so why are you going to act like that's an argument?

Chessbase is trying to sell a product, what do you think they're going to call it?

A line becoming suddenly popular doesn't make it new, either. It makes it popular. The difference is obvious.

Quote:
As for the rest of the comments on the themes etc. I'm forced to disagree - too specific, the ideas are not as you say, although no doubt it could be one possibility. Anyway its not the way I play the line, and so far my method has stood up to the test against strong opposition.


I mentioned the critical ideas used in GM play against white's primary responses. You'd know this if you had studied the games.

Quote:
Granted it could be an approach no doubt, in which case it is further evidence of my general impression so far - the whole line is full of rich possibilities for both sides at this moment.


Not really. Your mystery approach aside, the methods of play are well established in GM play.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. d4 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 0-0 7. 0-0 Nbd7 (7...c6 7. Qc2 Nbd7 8. Nc3 dxc4 9. Bg5 ends up in Avrukh's analysis of ...Bd6 without Bb4+) 8. Qc2 is going to quickly end up back in normal waters.

Play only gets "rich" when white varies with Qb3, Qc2+Rd1, or Bf4.

Of course, there's always your mystery method unknown to the world that's worked against "strong opposition".  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #26 - 10/17/10 at 20:02:29
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I think you're fighting a losing argument trying to call it an old idea. Ultimately there is nothing new in chess but a couple of old games from 1985 and then nothing... we've seen this a million times over in other openings. Actually my database has only one not especially relevant game from Utasi in 1985, but I'll trust you there is another one - could you let me know the other Utasi game, like to add it to my database  Wink Anyway, back to the subject, even the jokers in chessbase trying to flog us dodgy DVDs that dont play on the telly call it new. Anyway if its such an old idea how is that Avrukh missed it? In 2010 we have seen a flurry of high level games in this line, so I think you get my drift.

As for the rest of the comments on the themes etc. I'm forced to disagree - too specific, the ideas are not as you say, although no doubt it could be one possibility. Anyway its not the way I play the line, and so far my method has stood up to the test against strong opposition. Granted it could be an approach no doubt, in which case it is further evidence of my general impression so far - the whole line is full of rich possibilities for both sides at this moment.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #25 - 10/15/10 at 20:18:00
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Keano wrote on 10/15/10 at 09:09:24:
Thats it, well done lads - not even given a mention by Avrukh. There may be a game in 1985 - but who played it then? Its basically a new idea. In the last 2 years this variation has started appearing in the repertoires of top top players like Fressinet, Michael Adams etc. and so far statistically it is doing outstanding. Of course theres work no matter what line you pick but the advantage with this is that it is new and fresh. The idea is obvious - to put a stop to Bf4, and also leave a square for the Queen on e7.


Just because it's suddenly gotten popular among the elite doesn't make it new. Utasi (a 2400 strength player) used it a couple of times in the '80s. Georgiev-Utasi, Szirak 1985 saw a GM on the white side of the board.

The idea extends well beyond just playing Qe7/denying Bf4. The purpose of the set-up is achieving ...dxc4 and ...e5, or ...b6 if white plays Bf4 Bxf4 gxf4 (playing it too soon runs into cxd5 cxd5 Nb5). Not surprisingly these same ideas are used when ...Bb4+ isn't played. If white plays Rd1 in tandem with Qc2 then ...Ne4/...f5 produces a viable Stonewall.

Transpositions to lines Avrukh covered (no Bb4+) are possible as well if black plays ...dxc4 at some point.

Quote:
White introduced a quite direct interesting new idea in the olympiad, and no I'm not going to do a pgn attachment!


It's an old idea that has a main line that transposes to a position without ...Bb4+ included if black responds accurately. The resulting position in black's best defense is easier for white to play, but black should draw without much difficulty.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #24 - 10/15/10 at 09:26:59
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White introduced a quite direct interesting new idea in the olympiad, and no I'm not going to do a pgn attachment! Search for it yourself, or copy paste:

[Event "39th Olympiad Men"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk RUS"]
[Date "2010.09.29"]
[Round "8.14"]
[White "Le, Quang Liem"]
[Black "Papaioannou, Ioannis"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A13"]
[WhiteElo "2694"]
[BlackElo "2622"]
[PlyCount "102"]
[EventDate "2010.09.21"]
[WhiteTeam "VIE"]
[BlackTeam "GRE"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. d4 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 O-O 7. O-O c6 8. Nc3
Nbd7 9. e4 dxe4 10. Ng5 Be7 11. Ngxe4 Nxe4 12. Nxe4 e5 13. d5 f5 14. d6 fxe4
15. dxe7 Qxe7 16. Bxe4 Nf6 17. Bg2 Bf5 18. Qe2 Rad8 19. Rfe1 Bd3 20. Qxe5 Qxe5
21. Rxe5 Bxc4 22. Bf4 Rfe8 23. Rxe8+ Rxe8 24. Be3 a6 25. a4 Bd5 26. Bh3 Re4 27.
Bc5 Re2 28. Bd4 Ne4 29. Bg4 Rd2 30. Rd1 Kf7 31. a5 g6 32. Kf1 h5 33. Be2 Rxd1+
34. Bxd1 Nd2+ 35. Ke2 Nf3 36. Ke3 Nxh2 37. Kf4 g5+ 38. Kxg5 Nf3+ 39. Bxf3 Bxf3
40. Kf4 Bd1 41. Ke5 Kg6 42. Bc5 Bf3 43. Kd6 Kf5 44. Kc7 Be2 45. Kxb7 Bb5 46. f3
Be2 47. b4 Bb5 48. Kc7 Be2 49. f4 Bb5 50. Kd6 h4 51. gxh4 Kxf4 1/2-1/2

Can't help but believe Black has better ways to play the opening, over-all the whole line seems reliable though with potential for rich play and winning chances, still early days in its development so there is a wide variety of options for both players at the moment, and scope for a bit of creativity.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #23 - 10/15/10 at 09:09:24
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/15/10 at 02:08:46:
Interesting? Yes.

New? No. The idea first popped up in 1985.

Instead of being all mysterious - the line in question is 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 e6 4. g3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 instead of the more common 5...Be7.

As with any Catalan line there's theory to learn, nuances to be aware of, and don't expect a comfortable ride.


Thats it, well done lads - not even given a mention by Avrukh. There may be a game in 1985 - but who played it then? Its basically a new idea. In the last 2 years this variation has started appearing in the repertoires of top top players like Fressinet, Michael Adams etc. and so far statistically it is doing outstanding. Of course theres work no matter what line you pick but the advantage with this is that it is new and fresh. The idea is obvious - to put a stop to Bf4, and also leave a square for the Queen on e7. I see also that my favourite company to hate chessbase has an opening survey on it by Kuzmin in CBM 138:

http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=532

There you go chessbase, I dont hate you all the time:

"Kuzmin: Catalan E01
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bd6 6.Bg2
In the Catalan the black bishop usually moves to e7 – no matter whether it first delivers a check on b4 or whether it goes there directly. But why not to d6? Alexey Kuzmin presents the latest state of affairs in this still quite new setup."
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #22 - 10/15/10 at 05:22:21
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TN wrote on 10/15/10 at 03:00:23:
My impression from studying the survey in Yearbook 96 was that Black has excellent chances of equalising. White's best chance for an edge is to follow Kramer-Ovseevich, Neuhausen 2007, but Black can deviate with 7...dc4 or 9...h6, both of which offer equal play.


Black has excellent chances of equalizing in any Closed Catalan variation (Bd6 or Be7, with or without Bb4 included) when white doesn't play critically, so that doesn't say a whole lot.

Kraemer-Ovsejevitsch, Neuhausen 2007

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Nf3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 0-0 7. 0-0 (7. Qb3 avoids 7...dxc4 if white even cares to avoid it) c6 (7...dxc4, see Postny-Turova, Rethmynon 2010) 8. Qb3 Nbd7 9. Nc3 Nbd7 (9...h6) etc.

It is far from clear how 9...h6 is so useful as to equalize. Simply preventing Ng5 isn't that big of a deal when white can play Rad1/Rfe1 instead (discouraging ...dxc4 with ...e5 and preparing e4, respectively) and play cxd5 if black plays ...b6. It's up to black to prove he has more useful waiting moves than white - white being the only player with an actual active plan in the position.
« Last Edit: 10/15/10 at 11:06:00 by BPaulsen »  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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