Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repertoire for Black in the Catalan... (Read 70691 times)
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #51 - 10/20/10 at 10:38:26
Post Tools
Thats what he talked about on his PowerPlay show??
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #50 - 10/20/10 at 09:14:53
Post Tools
ghenghisclown wrote on 10/20/10 at 08:51:57:
I guess nobody knows which line King recommended.


No. He played the Toppy line with ...a5 himself against Andrew ledger in the 4NCL though, take your bets.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #49 - 10/20/10 at 08:51:57
Post Tools
I guess nobody knows which line King recommended.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #48 - 10/20/10 at 08:50:09
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 10/20/10 at 08:26:30:
Yes. 8.b3 is another interesting move in this system. I reckon Black can eventually equalize in the 9...b6 line, and this is the move Turov has been playing and the approach I like myself. Have to admit its a bit dry though, and White is the one playing for anything.


It's a long defense after 9...b6 10. e4. Obviously there's no forced win, black should likely draw with best play, but white is easier to play and the only one playing for anything. That's pretty much a normal +=.

Quote:
In that particular move-order though I reckon Black has 8...Ne4!? If nothing else he must be able to transpose to an improved type of stonewall then, although perhaps he can avoid playing ...f5 altogether. 8...Ne4 makes a lot of sense to me after White takes a move out for b3.


8...Ne4 9. Nc3 f5 10. Nxe4 fxe4 11. Ng5 is far from easy for black.

Stonewalls work best when white plays Rd1 (see: Topalov-Ponomariov, despite the final result).

It's no surprise that in practice black has avoided Stonewall set-ups versus b3.

  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #47 - 10/20/10 at 08:26:30
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 10/20/10 at 02:57:21:
A game that got little press because it was a short draw is interesting from the white perspective - in the final position white had a small edge. This system has parallels to a line Marin assesses as += versus the standard Bd6 line.

Meier-Ponomariov, Sestao 2010.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Nf3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 c6 7. 0-0 Nbd7 8. b3 0-0 9. Nc3 Re8 (9...b6 10. e4 Nxe4 11. Nxe4 dxe4 12. Ng5 Nf6 13. Nxe4 Nxe4 14. Bxe4 +=, white will be able to achieve c4-c5 hampering black's position and black will be in for a long, arduous defense, 9...h6 10. Qc2 looks perfectly fine for white) 10. Qc2 (this set-up for white is more common with the Bc1, but the way the game unfolds shows the Bd2 isn't a drawback) dxc4 11. bxc4 e5 (standard in these sorts of positions) 12. e3 (white is quite willing to take on hanging pawns as black's piece set-up is not well suited to handle them, in comparison to the standard hanging pawn structures the c-file is closed, and this feature also favors white) Nf8!? 13. dxe5 Bxe5 14. Nxe5 Rxe5 15. Ne2 Re8 16. Bb4 +=. The game score continues Bd7, but that was probably just included in the notation at the draw offer.

Food for thought.


Yes. 8.b3 is another interesting move in this system. I reckon Black can eventually equalize in the 9...b6 line, and this is the move Turov has been playing and the approach I like myself. Have to admit its a bit dry though, and White is the one playing for anything.

In that particular move-order though I reckon Black has 8...Ne4!? If nothing else he must be able to transpose to an improved type of stonewall then, although perhaps he can avoid playing ...f5 altogether. 8...Ne4 makes a lot of sense to me after White takes a move out for b3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #46 - 10/20/10 at 08:07:50
Post Tools
ghenghisclown wrote on 10/19/10 at 10:18:52:
OK, I figure you're right BP. I don't know what the history exactly is between you guys, but it seems you don't "suffer" him too lightly.

Anyhow, has anyone on Chesspub mentioned/heard/written about  the variation that Daniel King talked about on his Playchess show??


Ghengis a nice try at stirring the pot!  Wink If you mean he's right about what Marin said, or what Khalifman says, or any other book or CD for that matter, he invariably is. Not that I'm saying that isnt useful information in its own way. Anyway - stop trying to fish for agro just when we're best friends again.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #45 - 10/20/10 at 02:57:21
Post Tools
A game that got little press because it was a short draw is interesting from the white perspective - in the final position white had a small edge. This system has parallels to a line Marin assesses as += versus the standard Bd6 line.

Meier-Ponomariov, Sestao 2010.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Nf3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 c6 7. 0-0 Nbd7 8. b3 0-0 9. Nc3 Re8 (9...b6 10. e4 Nxe4 11. Nxe4 dxe4 12. Ng5 Nf6 13. Nxe4 Nxe4 14. Bxe4 +=, white will be able to achieve c4-c5 hampering black's position and black will be in for a long, arduous defense, 9...h6 10. Qc2 looks perfectly fine for white) 10. Qc2 (this set-up for white is more common with the Bc1, but the way the game unfolds shows the Bd2 isn't a drawback) dxc4 11. bxc4 e5 (standard in these sorts of positions) 12. e3 (white is quite willing to take on hanging pawns as black's piece set-up is not well suited to handle them, in comparison to the standard hanging pawn structures the c-file is closed, and this feature also favors white) Nf8!? 13. dxe5 Bxe5 14. Nxe5 Rxe5 15. Ne2 Re8 16. Bb4 +=. The game score continues Bd7, but that was probably just included in the notation at the draw offer.

Food for thought.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #44 - 10/19/10 at 10:18:52
Post Tools
OK, I figure you're right BP. I don't know what the history exactly is between you guys, but it seems you don't "suffer" him too lightly.

Anyhow, has anyone on Chesspub mentioned/heard/written about  the variation that Daniel King talked about on his Playchess show??
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #43 - 10/18/10 at 17:59:19
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 10/18/10 at 14:10:37:
really? Equal sounds a bit dramatic.


It's analyzed at length in Marin's database on the Catalan. Marin even goes as far as to discourage white players from using that set-up.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #42 - 10/18/10 at 14:10:37
Post Tools
really? Equal sounds a bit dramatic.

Out of interest, I'll throw this out there for all Catalan fans, the idea came to me and I've checked and seen its been played by Xu Jun and Kurajica - instead of Avrukhs suggestion against an early ...Bd6 of Nc3 I recommend the move-order refinement:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Bd6 5. Bg2 c6 6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nfd2!?

It might look a bit bizarre, but the idea is that if Black plays 7...0-0 then after 8.Nc3 we are back into a favourable position for White, meanwhile the ...dxc4 businesss has been avoided.

The old game Xu Jun-Grishchuk (2001) continued 7...0-0 8.Nc3, as did the Kurajica game.

There you have it, a good line for White against the early ..Bd6 without the check.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #41 - 10/18/10 at 12:46:13
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 10/18/10 at 12:43:41:
It is allowable you know, essential even.

btw the point of including the check is to avoid the simple harmonious development for White of Qc2,Nbd2 etc. following up with either e4 or b3 - surprised Avrukh did not recommend that instead of this sharper attempt.


See Marin's Catalan database for why - it's equal.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #40 - 10/18/10 at 12:43:41
Post Tools
It is allowable you know, essential even.

btw the point of including the check is to avoid the simple harmonious development for White of Qc2,Nbd2 etc. following up with either e4 or b3 - surprised Avrukh did not recommend that instead of this sharper attempt.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #39 - 10/18/10 at 12:34:37
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 10/18/10 at 12:31:58:
I'd say the reverse - if the Black pawn was on h7 or h6, White would have a small but persistent edge because of the better minor piece. The whole point of this position is the Black pawn on g4 - this changes the assessment to "at least equal for Black" - assessment borrowed from John Watson  Play the French.


Borrowing assessments from unrelated analysis?  Grin

You're free to disagree. Obviously your positional insight is superior to mine and Avrukh's when it comes to this position.

Grin
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #38 - 10/18/10 at 12:31:58
Post Tools
I'd say the reverse - if the Black pawn was on h7 or h6, White would have a small but persistent edge because of the better minor piece. The whole point of this position is the Black pawn on g4 - this changes the assessment to "at least equal for Black" - assessment borrowed from John Watson  Play the French.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #37 - 10/18/10 at 12:22:26
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 10/18/10 at 11:57:58:
Yes. Well in that particular position I'd like to take on c4 myself. I've just downloaded the Avrukh update from the website and the first thing that struck me is this line, without going through the whole thing yet this looks like something I'd be happy with:

Its a bit confusing because the check move-order adds a move, but I'll use this move-order:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 6. Bg2 c6 7. O-O O-O 8. Qc2 Nbd7
9. Nc3 dxc4 10. Bg5 h6 11. Ne4 hxg5!? "N" - Avrukh
12. Nxd6 Nb6 13. Nxc8 Rxc8 14. Rfd1 g4 15. Ne5

(Here Avrukh stops saying something like- "White regains his pawn and has superiority of the Bishop v the Knight")

I think Black can make use of the h-file here and in general should be comfortable. The White bishop for the moment is not biting on anything with the Black pawn on c6. Lets continue a bit:

15...Qe7 16. Nxc4 Nxc4 17. Qxc4 and now it seems like there are 2 decent plans:

a) 17...Rfd8 followed by doubling on the d-file and an eventual ...e5

b) 17...g6!? intending to put the king on the nice g7 square and open the possibility of ...Rh8 using the h-file.

Over-all this line seems reliable enough to me from Blacks point of view, I'd certainly be happy playing it over the board. I believe White has better options than going in for this type of thing.


Black can get the position with or without Bb4+, which eliminates a lot of the appeal of including the check.

Aside from that, while black is playable I agree with Avrukh's evaluation - the long term prospects favor white's minor piece. If the Pg4 were on h7, or h6, I'd be more apt to believe black has equalized.

  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo