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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repertoire for Black in the Catalan... (Read 24869 times)
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #66 - 05/14/13 at 12:34:13
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The Catalan has lost some of its prestige lately, black is finding more and more lines to equalise and win.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #65 - 12/13/12 at 07:15:32
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Ok, thx. I also think White has the better chances in the variations with ...Bd6, but I guess that actually most White players at club level won't be able to navigate these correctly. I just wanted to see if I missed something in this particular one, since I meet the variation with ...Bd6 directly pretty often as White playing at Playchess. I have that one under control, but not this one, since Nfd2 is not available.

I am playing the Catalan from the White side, but am also thinking of adding the QGD to my repertoire for Black and I think the Catalan is pretty popular even at club level nowadays. However, most players sub-200 don't seem to have a good idea of how to play from either side. Cox's recommendation is probably what I'll start with, even though I also have thought about the recommendation in Kotronias Beat the Flank Openings.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #64 - 12/12/12 at 21:31:32
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I've stood at += in this for awhile now, see the game M. Kraemer-S. Ovsejevitsch, 2007. Keano may still think it's equal, but my investigations don't lead me to believe as such.

You can reach your own conclusions, I suppose. I stand by my convictions.

There are bigger fish for white to (try to) fry in the Catalan than this at the moment, in my opinion.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #63 - 12/07/12 at 15:18:21
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I was looking into the recommendations of Avrukh, and dug up this old thread.

In the Semi-Slav set-up tried with ...Bd6 (without the check on b4), Bologan clearly recommends Nfd2 (both in his Chessbase video and book), and says he stopped playing the variation precisely because of that move. I.e. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 Nf3 5.Nbd7 6.0-0 Bd6.

He also mentions the line with the check on b4, but can't remember the conclusion. This was with the game Meier-Ponomariov, 2010, in the video.

Do you have anything new on these lines? BP, do you still stand by equal for Black?
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #62 - 10/27/10 at 05:48:53
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I think the question is somewhat incoherent (e.g., you can't have a repertoire with the Lasker and the Tartakower, you have to choose one or the other, and they are rather different), but my first thought is that the Tartakower is perhaps similar in spirit to the (now seemingly deeply unpopular) Closed Catalan.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #61 - 10/27/10 at 03:19:43
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If I was going to make repertoire based on the lasker defense and the tartakower defense(something similar to cox's forthcoming "Declining the queen's gambit" book), what line against the catalan is consistent with the style of play of the lasker/tartakower?


What about the lines topalov tried against Anand in their World champ match? It is given below.

[Event "Anand-Topalov World Chess Championship"]
[Site "1:07:33-0:58:33"]
[Date "2010.01.03"]
[EventDate "2010.04.23"]
[Round "2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Viswanathan Anand"]
[Black "Veselin Topalov"]
[ECO "E04"]
[WhiteElo "2787"]
[BlackElo "2805"]
[PlyCount "85"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 dxc4 5.Bg2 a6 6.Ne5 c5 7.Na3
cxd4 8.Naxc4 Bc5 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd2 Nd5 11.Rc1 Nd7 12.Nd3 Ba7
13.Ba5 Qe7 14.Qb3 Rb8 15.Qa3 Qxa3 16.bxa3 N7f6 17.Nce5 Re8
18.Rc2 b6 19.Bd2 Bb7 20.Rfc1 Rbd8 21.f4 Bb8 22.a4 a5 23.Nc6
Bxc6 24.Rxc6 h5 25.R1c4 Ne3 26.Bxe3 dxe3 27.Bf3 g6 28.Rxb6 Ba7
29.Rb3 Rd4 30.Rc7 Bb8 31.Rc5 Bd6 32.Rxa5 Rc8 33.Kg2 Rc2 34.a3
Ra2 35.Nb4 Bxb4 36.axb4 Nd5 37.b5 Raxa4 38.Rxa4 Rxa4 39.Bxd5
exd5 40.b6 Ra8 41.b7 Rb8 42.Kf3 d4 43.Ke4 1-0

  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #60 - 10/21/10 at 09:22:41
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Well I checked Avrukh last night and it doesn't seem like he covers this move order with 7...Nbd7 instead of 7...0-0, so its yet another new position to ponder over.
  
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Keano
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #59 - 10/20/10 at 15:10:40
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I'll check it later...

btw - came across a 2010 game in the stonewall:

Avrukh, B - Gofshtein, L. , 2010
1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 d5 5. Nf3 c6 6. O-O Bd6 7. Nc3 Nbd7 8. Qc2 Ne4 9. Nxe4 dxe4 10. Ng5 Nf6 11. f3 h6 12. Nh3 e5 13. fxe4 Nxe4 14. g4 14... Nf6 15. gxf5 O-O 16. c5 Bc7 17. dxe5 Qd4+ 18. Kh1 Bxe5 19. e4 Re8 20. Rb1 b6 21.
Qb3+ Kh7 22. Be3 Qd8 23. Bf3 bxc5 24. Rg1 Qc7 25. Rg2 Rb8 26. Qc2 Ba6 27. b3
Rbd8 28. Rbg1 Rd7 29. Qf2 Bd4 30. Bxd4 cxd4 31. Qh4 Qe5 32. Ng5+ Kh8 33. Ne6
Rg8 34. Nf4 Kh7 35. Ng6 Qe8 36. e5 Nd5 37. f6 Bd3 38. Be4 1-0


I like Blacks play a lot in the opening here, there are various improvements - 14...Qh4!? being just one. So by analogy I am thinking of taking with the d-pawn in our own line with a white pawn on b3 and Bishop on d2. Gofshtein is a lot stronger than I am so I'll have to bow to his wisdom here.  I think the plan works OK here also, even though White has the extra possibility of Bc3 but its no big deal.

Does anybody know if Avrukh recommends 9. Nxe4 in his own book in that position from his game above, or does he go for 9.Rb1? Or have we strayed too far off topic  Wink  Dont think so though because there is a direct comparison between the 2 positions...
« Last Edit: 10/20/10 at 16:56:46 by Keano »  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #58 - 10/20/10 at 14:37:33
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Keano wrote on 10/20/10 at 14:30:55:
Sorry I added to my previous post: 12...h6 Dont think 13.fxe4 is working so I'm assuming Black is doing OK. Would help if I played the stonewall, but I'll chance my arm, its still chess.


13. fxe4 is tame.

13. Nh3 is completely dangerous. Once you have the chance to do some engine analysis you'll see why.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #57 - 10/20/10 at 14:30:55
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Sorry I added to my previous post: 12...h6 Dont think 13.fxe4 is working so I'm assuming Black is doing OK. Would help if I played the stonewall, but I'll chance my arm, its still chess.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #56 - 10/20/10 at 14:26:52
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Keano wrote on 10/20/10 at 14:18:48:
But isnt Marin dealing with normal Catalan with the Bishop on c1, or does he deal with the check also? The point here is Black is trying to claim the Bd2 would be better off on its original square. Will check that Ng5 idea, not got an engine now but just looked OK to me for Black. I think with a Queen on c2 instead of pawn on b3 and B on d2 its a direct transposition to Avrukhs analysis. Would be interesting to compare the difference.


Marin discusses Stonewall structures with Bb4+-e7 included, however Bb4+-d6 doesn't change the fact that Stonewalls equalize completely versus Rd1, and with b3 only if white has combined it with Qc2.

It's noteworthy that white's 11. Ng5 resource in this position wouldn't work if black's Bd6 were on e7.

Not surprisingly Ponomariov only uses ...Ne4 when faced with Qc2+Rd1 (his aforementioned game against Topalov), and Ponomariov is the biggest name that plays this continuation with great regularity.

Quote:
Seems to me it must be a big improvement for Black and White will have to go Qc2 anyhow. Where is this big initiative coming from after f3 - cant I go 12...h6, or is 13.fxe4 coming there... ah that might be messy.


White doesn't play Qc2. Some fascinating lines come out of the engine's analysis (13. Nh3 is way more dangerous than 13. fxe4, by the way) but black is under serious pressure.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #55 - 10/20/10 at 14:18:48
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But isnt Marin dealing with normal Catalan with the Bishop on c1, or does he deal with the check also? The point here is Black is trying to claim the Bd2 would be better off on its original square. Will check that Ng5 idea, not got an engine now but just looked OK to me for Black. I think with a Queen on c2 instead of pawn on b3 and B on d2 its a direct transposition to Avrukhs analysis. Would be interesting to compare the difference. Seems to me it must be a big improvement for Black and White will have to go Qc2 anyhow. Where is this big initiative coming from after f3 - cant I go 12...h6, or is 13.fxe4 coming there... ah that might be messy.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #54 - 10/20/10 at 14:00:50
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Keano wrote on 10/20/10 at 13:55:16:
hmmm not quite, what I mean its its some kind of normal stonewall position slightly improved for Black (i.e. put a Queen on c2 instead of the pawn on b3 and Bishop on d2 and thats a standard position). White has gained a move, but not really because b3 and Bd2 dont fit well. The line you gave looks decent enough for Black to me after 11...Nf6, but perhaps we need a stonewall expert to chime in.


The improved Stonewall positions occur when Rd1 is played. This is old news (see: Marin's Catalan database for a discussion of when Stonewall set-ups are, and aren't okay when reached from Catalans).

11...Nf6 12. f3 and white has a serious initiative, you can use an engine to verify it. Aside from that, there's a reason black doesn't play ...Ne4 too early in the normal Stonewall - it can easily end up being premature.
  

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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #53 - 10/20/10 at 13:55:16
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/20/10 at 09:50:09:

8...Ne4 9. Nc3 f5 10. Nxe4 fxe4 11. Ng5 is far from easy for black.
Stonewalls work best when white plays Rd1 (see: Topalov-Ponomariov, despite the final result).
It's no surprise that in practice black has avoided Stonewall set-ups versus b3.


hmmm not quite, what I mean its its some kind of normal stonewall position slightly improved for Black (i.e. put a Queen on c2 instead of the pawn on b3 and Bishop on d2 and thats a standard position). White has gained a move, but not really because b3 and Bd2 dont fit well. The line you gave looks decent enough for Black to me after 11...Nf6, but perhaps we need a stonewall expert to chime in.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #52 - 10/20/10 at 11:40:54
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Like I said, dunno. Why dont you ask him if you're that interested.
  
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