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Normal Topic C34: KG - Modern Defence 13.Qe1!? (Read 2970 times)
micawber
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Re: KG - Modern Defence 13.Qe1!?
Reply #2 - 11/07/10 at 09:51:23
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The game Carlsen - Wang Yue has been discussed in a separate thread. Special attention was given to 9....,g5
not solely relying on computers but based on a game score.
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1276779881/15#15

My personal conviction is though that after 6.0-0,
Black's most interesting and combative reply is 6....Nc6.
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: KG - Modern Defence 13.Qe1!?
Reply #1 - 11/07/10 at 05:06:19
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Just wanted to add this to this discussion.

Ankit Gupta said:
In regards to your comment about the Modern Variation, it's actually not so easy to get equality in several lines.

If you look at the following recent game:

[Event "4th Kings Tournament"]
[Site "Medias ROU"]
[Date "2010.06.17"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Carlsen, M."]
[Black "Wang Yue"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C36"]
[WhiteElo "2813"]
[BlackElo "2752"]
[PlyCount "107"]
[EventDate "2010.06.14"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 exf4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nxd5 6. O-O Be7 7. Bxd5 Qxd5
8. Nc3 Qd8 9. d4 O-O 10. Bxf4 Bf5 11. Qe2 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6 13. Nb5 Qd8 14. c4
a6 15. Nc3 Nd7 16. Rad1 Bg6 17. Qf2 Re8 18. h3 Rc8 19. Rfe1 Rxe1+ 20. Rxe1 c6
21. d5 Nf6 22. Qd4 cxd5 23. Nxd5 Nxd5 24. cxd5 Qd6 25. Ne5 Re8 26. Re3 Rd8 27.
Nc4 Qf6 28. Re5 h6 29. d6 Bf5 30. Nb6 Be6 31. d7 Kh8 32. a4 g6 33. Qc3 Kg7 34.
a5 h5 35. h4 Rxd7 36. Nxd7 Bxd7 37. Qd4 Bc6 38. b4 Bb5 39. Kh2 Ba4 40. Rd5 Bc6
41. Qxf6+ Kxf6 42. Rc5 Ke6 43. Kg3 f6 44. Kf2 Bd5 45. g3 g5 46. g4 hxg4 47. h5
Be4 48. Rc7 f5 49. h6 f4 50. h7 g3+ 51. Ke1 f3 52. h8=Q f2+ 53. Ke2 Bd3+ 54.
Ke3 1-0

After Black played 9...0-0, White had a slight advantage due to the extra space and development lead. Of course, Black has the two bishops, but the position is certainly easier to play for White. No one can say and justify that that position is just completely equals.

Now, if someone with a computer says 9...g5 is possible and gives Black an edge of -0.5 or something; the fact is that move would simply result in positions similar to mainline accepted variations except White has even more open lines than usual to attack with.

Sure, there's a lot of ways for Black to deviate earlier, but none of the resulting positions are all that simple.

Moreover, White can even play something like 5. c4 and "force" Black to play an IQP (Isolated Queen's Pawn) position. Is that position advantageous for White? No. But White is at least equals and the IQP is one of the most highly complicated pawn structures in chess.

Does this mean, if we do a brief "Anti-Petroff" section we won't at all consider suggesting the Modern Variation? Of course not; it's a legitimate line and a legitimate possibility. All I'm saying is there is a lot to consider for us before we would choose any line for such complicated openings --- and something that looks equalish at first may not necessarily be completely equals.
  
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TalJechin
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C34: KG - Modern Defence 13.Qe1!?
10/11/10 at 17:13:30
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This originated in the Play the Petroff thread, but there's no reason to clog that thread up with KG analysis, so I've copied the main story over here.

Quote:
I don't have the book you refer to in front of me, so I looked at the high level games after the ...Be6 variation and explained reasonings based on them for why White has a slight advantage.

While I rarely play the King's Gambit, at one point, I analyzed it in great detail with GM Har-Zvi, so these comments reflect the opinion of both of us.

Short analysis below:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 exf4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nxd5 6. O-O Be6 {Kaufman's
suggestion.} 7. Bb3 Be7 8. c4 Nb6 9. d4 Nxc4 {The theoretical line that
supposedly gives equality for Black.} 10. Nc3 Nb6 (10... c6 {Shulman - Onishuk,
2003} 11. Re1 N {With the idea of Rxe6 and pressure on the c4 square.} b5
12. a4 ! {Black's position comes quickly under fire. It's hard for Black to
activate his pieces and finish develop in a manner that will not give White a
small edge.}
) 11. d5 Bg4 {Federov - Goloshchapov, 2001. Many books assess Bg4
as the move to equalize.} 12. Bxf4 {Thematically if you look at this position
what you have is an IQP where White no longer has an f-pawn, and Black no
longer has an e-pawn. A great book, titled, "Winning Pawn Structures" by
Alexander Baburin details these types of positions. It's never possible to state that such a position is purely equals. One can say it is balanced, but
White's space and activity give him the short-term middlegame prospects. This
type of IQP position (without the White f-pawn and Black e-pawn) is better
than the standard IQP position for White, as he has more lines to attack with.}
O-O 13. Qe1 N {The shift of the queen from d1 to g3 is uncommon in the IQP
type positions, but an important one as it's not clear how Black can achieve
complete equality here.} Na6 {Necessary because after Qg3, White will have
pressure on c7.} 14. Qg3 Bf5 (
14... Bh5 {This bishop move does not offer Black equality either.} 15. Rad1 Bd6
{Out-posting the piece in front of the d5 pawn is the most logical continuation.
} 16. Ne4 Nc8 {Necessary due to the pressure on d6.} 17. Nfg5 ! Bg6
(17...
Bxd1 18. Bxd6 Nxd6
(18... cxd6 19. Nf6+ Kh8 20. Nfxh7 Bh5 21. Qh4 {And Black's
position is completely lost.})
19. Nf6+ Qxf6 20. Rxf6 Bxb3 21. Qd3 {Forcing g6, at which point White can recapture the bishop on b3 with the a-pawn and enjoy a significant edge}) 18. Bc2 {
Maneuvering the bishop to this new diagonal is very logical as it had no
realistic prospects on the closed a2-g8 diagonal.} Bxf4 19. Rxf4 Nd6 20. Nxh7
!! Nxe4
(20... Bxh7 21. Nf6+ Qxf6 22. Bxh7+ Kxh7 23. Rxf6 gxf6 24. Qh4+ {With
mate soon to follow.})
21. Qxg6 ! fxg6 22. Rxf8+ Kxh7 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Bxe4 {
This resulting endgame slightly favors White, even with the IQP because of the
weakness of the c7 pawn, and the doubled g-pawns.})
15. Rad1 {White has achieved full development.}
Nc8 {The other option is for Black to maneuver his knight from b6 to d6.
However, this leads to an edge for White on different grounds.} (15... Bd6 {
It's a common motif to outpost a piece in front of the IQP. First, we can look
at why using the bishop may lead to some sort of edge for White.} 16. Nh4 Bg6
17. Nb5 {If you look at this position it's actually very hard to find a good
move for Black. Black is quite cramped and White has several options for
improving his piece placement.}
) 16. d6 ! {The purpose is to open diagonals
for White's pieces. Very common thematic sacrifice in the IQP} Nxd6 17. Ne5 {Sacrifices against f7 are in the air.} Be6 {
Logical for Black to contest the pressure on f7 in some way.} (17... Bg6 ?? {
Obviously not this.} 18. Nxg6 hxg6 19. Qxg6 {Simply wins for White.}
) 18. Bh6
Bf6 {Forced.} 19. Bc2 {Where Black will likely have to acquiesce to g6 and
sacrifice the exchange.} *

...

It's kind of hard to read because of the way the formatting happens when you post CB text into this forum, so I've just colored the short sidelines in red (sidelines within sidelines in pink, and so on in blue).

Sure, Black can deviate with several other options, but all I'm trying to say is, this position is far from as simple as you believe it is, and Black has to strive hard to show semblance of full equality.

And in regards to insulting GM Har-Zvi and me; that's not a good way to likely get any questions posted by you answered by us in the future.

It's important to note that just because Rybka gives an evaluation as =, a position is not necessary =. Many types of positions (IQP, etc), take a very long time for Rybka to fully evaluate correctly.


TalJechin wrote on 10/11/10 at 00:26:02:
Quote:
If you review it on your blog (what is your blog?), and find any errors, please feel free to let me know.


You can read it here: http://borgchess.blogspot.com/2010/10/kg-newish-idea-in-modern-defence.html

You only missed one major thing, Bxe4! instead of Qxg6, and of course you should get a good corr-database for reference, it will save you a lot of work!

Anyway, thanks again for posting your analysis of 13.Qe1 - it was a long time since I last felt motivated to look at the KG, so it was nice to see that it's still more "unclear" than "easy equality"!


Ankit Gupta wrote on 10/11/10 at 14:42:00:
TalJechin wrote on 10/11/10 at 00:26:02:
"No ; Yes transposition chapter" could be another alternative.

Anyway, the reason I suggested it was that I was reading Palliser's book on the Czech Benoni, and got both confused and irritated at all the transposition notes within the commentary (otherwise, it's a good effort though!).

But what's the point of mentioning that a3 0-0, 0-0 Ne8, b4 transposes to 0-0 0-0, a3 Ne8, b4 and so on, and on. If "it just transposes" why mention it?

The important thing is if different move orders offer different alternatives on the way to the transpo or creates more choices or obstacles for the opponent, for example if one move order makes it important for the other part to suddenly play the standard moves in a certain order. Palliser has a good example of this, where Kh8 Rad1! Nf6 suddenly ran into Nxe5! dxe5 and d6.

Besides, knowledge and evaluation of transpo tricks are something where titled players are definitely better than an engine - so why hide that stuff in between all the "X is better than Y but not as strong as Z" variations? So, to my mind the only question is if transpos should be dealt with a chapter of their own or in a pre-chapter to every major variation, the 2nd option may be easier to do.

Quote:
If you review it on your blog (what is your blog?), and find any errors, please feel free to let me know.


You can read it here: http://borgchess.blogspot.com/2010/10/kg-newish-idea-in-modern-defence.html

You only missed one major thing, Bxe4! instead of Qxg6, and of course you should get a good corr-database for reference, it will save you a lot of work!

Anyway, thanks again for posting your analysis of 13.Qe1 - it was a long time since I last felt motivated to look at the KG, so it was nice to see that it's still more "unclear" than "easy equality"!


Yeah, I didn't refer to Corr for it (though I have Corr), mainly because it was KG material (and my intent was to show it was not as "dead" equals as others had insisted earlier in this forum thread) and not Petroff, and so I compiled it quickly, rather than thoroughly. Careless, and so noted for the future.

It's been a long time since I, myself, looked at the KG; it was something GM Har-Zvi and I looked at seriously a while back when I considered adding the KG to my repertoire.

On and in regards to your "fork" in the road of 13...Bd6. It's probably good to first consider the most thematic elements in the position.

Qg3 (as played in the Corr game you showed) seems the most principled. The reasoning is taking the bishop, although forcing cxd6, ends up leaving Black with two strong outposts on e5 and c5, and permanently locks the pawn on d5 limiting the scope of the b3 bishop.

While that position certainly seems playable, after 16...Nc8 that you recommend, 17. d6 (!?) should be the most principled move (because of the lack of development in Black's position and it increases the scope of White's bishop). If Qxd6 or cxd6, White can play Bxf7 and regain the pawn with the initiative, so the only critical response is 17...Nxd6. Upon which White should probably play 18. Nd5 Nc6 19. Rh3, it's really unclear how Black can survive this type of position. There should be some sacrifice at some point. Black has no way to contest the squares beyond the 6th rank. That should be better for White, though it'd take some time to investigate Black's choices and White's responses.

The reason I say that is because something like 19...Qd7 runs into mate after Nf6, and something like 19...h6 runs into problems after Rxh6, so maybe Black can survive with something like 19...Na5 20. Bc2 f5, but that position definitely favors White, and Black should be worse practically if not objectively.

Also, in regards to your comment about 15. Qxg4 (!?), it's not so relevant because of the fact that Black could have played Bxf3 first (before Bxf4) whereby it would transpose to the Corr game continuation.

Thanks for the feedback.


TalJechin wrote on 10/11/10 at 16:30:42:
Quote:
Also, in regards to your comment about 15. Qxg4 (!?), it's not so relevant because of the fact that Black could have played Bxf3 first (before Bxf4) whereby it would transpose to the Corr game continuation.


Actually, I think ...Bxf3, Rxf3 Bxf4. Rxf4!? is a more promising set-up than transposing with Qxf4. But I still haven't looked much at it (yet).

17.d6!? is indeed the move one would want to play. I'll take look.

Btw, maybe we should move this discussion to a new thread on 13.Qe1!? - so we don't clutter up this thread?

« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 00:55:31 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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