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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Move order questions regarding Catalan (Read 6840 times)
Keano
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #20 - 10/29/10 at 09:16:51
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Yes - I meant that certain GMs (not all) believe there are more promising and dangerous set-ups against the Benoni than g3 systems. But g3 has to remain a perfectably solid and respectable system against the Benoni, thats for sure.
  
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MNb
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #19 - 10/28/10 at 17:30:50
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F22 wrote on 10/28/10 at 04:05:59:
Also why is the fianchetto set up bad against the modern Benoni?

Who wrote that it's bad? Not Keano:

Keano wrote on 10/27/10 at 11:45:03:
why a lot of top GMs have been avoiding this move-order. Well that and also that they are committed to g3 system against the normal Modern benoni also.
GM's seem to think that there are more promising systems to combat the Benoni; you could think of the Modern Setup with Nf3 and h3. At least that's how I read Keano's post.
  

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Keano
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #18 - 10/28/10 at 15:09:57
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Its a personal preference I suppose - if you're happy enough to play against the early ...b5 and are happy with g3 systems against the normal Benoni then I suppose it cuts down on work alright.
  
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F22
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #17 - 10/28/10 at 04:05:59
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Keano wrote on 10/27/10 at 11:45:03:
After 8....f5!? though Black has been doing well at a high level - the position is still complex and very murky but I believe this is promising enough for Black, which is why a lot of top GMs have been avoiding this move-order. Well that and also that they are committed to g3 system against the normal Modern benoni also.


Alright so the critical continuation for the Kramnik Gambit is 8. ... f5 rather than 8. ... Nd6. Interesting.

Also why is the fianchetto set up bad against the modern Benoni? If you change the move order from 3. g3 to 3. Nf3 then you have to deal with QID as well. I think facing these lines against the Benoni is easier than playing against QID.
  
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Keano
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #16 - 10/27/10 at 11:45:03
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F22 wrote on 10/27/10 at 04:57:48:
So Kramnik's Gambit is this: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. d5 exd5 5. cxd5 b5 6. e4 Nxe4 7. Qe2 Qe7 8. Bg2:

* * * * * * * *
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and then he won against Alekseev: 8. ... Nd6 9. Be3 b4 10. Bxc5 Qxe2+ 11. Nxe2 Na6 12. Bxd6 Bxd6 13. Nd2 Rb8 14. Nc4 Be7 15. d6 Bf6 16. Nf4 Nc5 17. O-O Ba6 18. Nd5 O-O 19. Nxf6+ gxf6 20. Bd5 Na4 21. Rfc1 Rfe8 22. Ne3 Rb6 23. Rc7 Rxd6 24. Rd1 Kh8 25. Nf5 Rb6 26. Bxf7 Nxb2 27. Rdxd7 Re1+ 28. Kg2 Bf1+ 29. Kf3 Be2+ 30. Kf4 Rb8 31. Bc4 [1-0]

Obviously a very impressive game however I don't think Black can do better from the diagram I have posted. Just don't know how ...


After 8...Nd6 White has been doing well. After 8....f5!? though Black has been doing well at a high level - the position is still complex and very murky but I believe this is promising enough for Black, which is why a lot of top GMs have been avoiding this move-order. Well that and also that they are committed to g3 system against the normal Modern benoni also.
  
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #15 - 10/27/10 at 05:25:29
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In the Yearbook, Gennadi Sosonko thought that 9...b4 "cannot be recommended."  He apparently preferred 9...Na6, though he thought that White could get "definite compensation."
  
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F22
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #14 - 10/27/10 at 04:57:48
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So Kramnik's Gambit is this: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. d5 exd5 5. cxd5 b5 6. e4 Nxe4 7. Qe2 Qe7 8. Bg2:

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
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*


and then he won against Alekseev: 8. ... Nd6 9. Be3 b4 10. Bxc5 Qxe2+ 11. Nxe2 Na6 12. Bxd6 Bxd6 13. Nd2 Rb8 14. Nc4 Be7 15. d6 Bf6 16. Nf4 Nc5 17. O-O Ba6 18. Nd5 O-O 19. Nxf6+ gxf6 20. Bd5 Na4 21. Rfc1 Rfe8 22. Ne3 Rb6 23. Rc7 Rxd6 24. Rd1 Kh8 25. Nf5 Rb6 26. Bxf7 Nxb2 27. Rdxd7 Re1+ 28. Kg2 Bf1+ 29. Kf3 Be2+ 30. Kf4 Rb8 31. Bc4 [1-0]

Obviously a very impressive game however I think Black can do better from the diagram I have posted. Just don't know how ...
« Last Edit: 10/28/10 at 04:01:47 by F22 »  
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Keano
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #13 - 10/25/10 at 09:41:52
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Watsonfox wrote on 10/25/10 at 09:14:32:
Additionally after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 Black can play c5 either transposing to a main line modern benoni with the option of playing an accelerated b5 ( 3...c5 4.d5 e6 5.Nf3 exd5 6.exd5 b5!? . Although this isn't that serious an issue for white.


Statistically that line does quite well for Black at a high level. I'm just guessing of course, but have a feeling its why Anand opted for the 3.Nf3 move-order against Topalov and after 3...d5 going 4.g3.
  
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #12 - 10/25/10 at 09:40:14
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Watsonfox wrote on 10/25/10 at 09:14:32:
Additionally after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 Black can play c5 either transposing to a main line modern benoni with the option of playing an accelerated b5 ( 3...c5 4.d5 e6 5.Nf3 exd5 6.exd5 b5!? . Although this isn't that serious an issue for white.


You mean 3...c5 4.d5 ed5 5.cd5 b5 instead, right? Then Kramnik's gambit is a concern for Black, but fortunately most players aren't willing to sacrifice a pawn on move 6 without preparation.
  

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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #11 - 10/25/10 at 09:14:32
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Additionally after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 Black can play c5 either transposing to a main line modern benoni with the option of playing an accelerated b5 ( 3...c5 4.d5 e6 5.Nf3 exd5 6.exd5 b5!? . Although this isn't that serious an issue for white.
  
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #10 - 10/25/10 at 06:15:38
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F22 wrote on 10/25/10 at 02:27:47:
So basically it comes down to

Symmetrical English, 1367675506-English Hybrid, Grunfeld-English Hybrid on the one hand and Benko, Benoni and Grunfeld on the other.

RE: anti-Dutch with 1. Nf3 f5 2. d3. I have never seen this before. Who plays this line? Is it in Khalifman's book?


It's not in Khalifman's book.

It's one of the more successful anti-Dutch gimmicks for the unwary, and shouldn't be something more than a practical weapon to catch people napping.
  

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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #9 - 10/25/10 at 02:27:47
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So basically it comes down to

Symmetrical English, QID-English Hybrid, Grunfeld-English Hybrid on the one hand and Benko, Benoni and Grunfeld on the other.

RE: anti-Dutch with 1. Nf3 f5 2. d3. I have never seen this before. Who plays this line? Is it in Khalifman's book?
  
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MNb
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #8 - 10/21/10 at 17:27:32
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And what's the point of this brilliant reply of Black? That White should resign?
If you just mean that this is an option for Black to avoid the Catalan by inviting the Symmetrical English - yeah, that's what BPaulsen wrote just above you as well.
  

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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #7 - 10/21/10 at 13:07:37
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1.Nf3 c5
  
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Re: Move order questions regarding Catalan
Reply #6 - 10/19/10 at 09:17:58
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Re: QID - black doesn't get the 4...Ba6 variation, and white does get the 7. Nc3 variation (Opecensky's line, or however it's spelled - too lazy to check, it's the critical variation for 4...Bb7) if he wants to transpose into the 4...Bb7 QID.

Otherwise the Queen's Indian English is theoretically +=. The light squared indian defenses don't work as well when white isn't committed to d4.

1. Nf3 has the Symmetrical English. 1. d4 has the Benko, Benoni, and Grunfeld proper. Ultimately it's up to what you want to allow.

For Catalan players that's pretty much the main difference.
  

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