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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!? (Read 13506 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #18 - 10/23/10 at 02:41:30
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PatzerNoster wrote on 10/22/10 at 00:08:09:
When I looked at the position I immediately asked myself why white shouldn't play 10.c4!?

After 10. ... d5 11.c5 I think with the help of a pawn on c5 the white attack could be more dangerous, e.g.:
11. ... Re8 12. Bd2 Bf5 13.Qc2 Bg6 14.Bc3 when the b-pawn is ready to roll.

I think this comes down to a principal question: is the attack more dangerous in a "more open" position (c-pawn still on c3) or with a closed formation (c-pawn on c5).

I think it is worth investing the time to bring the pawn to c5, as it might give white's attack additional strength.

An interesting idea. I'll return to the topic when I have more time. Castling long may be possible, but my original idea of castling short still seems to be the better option. However, 8.Ne2 Qd7 (and not 8...d5 9.Qb3!) 9.0-0 d5 should be the correct move order, and it avoids your c3-c4. For example 10.Nf4 Bf7 11. Re1+ Be7 (11...Ne7 followed by 0-0-0 seem also OK), reaching my old analysis by a transposition of moves: 12.Nh5 0-0 etc. I don't think that White has much in the resulting position. It is true that Rybka gives inflated assessments of +0.80, but we shouldn't take this too serious. Rybka gets hysterical when "she" has conquered only the bishop pair, but in human play knight forks are so much more important.
  
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PatzerNoster
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #17 - 10/22/10 at 00:08:09
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When I looked at the position I immediately asked myself why white shouldn't play 10.c4!?

After 10. ... d5 11.c5 I think with the help of a pawn on c5 the white attack could be more dangerous, e.g.:
11. ... Re8 12. Bd2 Bf5 13.Qc2 Bg6 14.Bc3 when the b-pawn is ready to roll.

I think this comes down to a principal question: is the attack more dangerous in a "more open" position (c-pawn still on c3) or with a closed formation (c-pawn on c5).

I think it is worth investing the time to bring the pawn to c5, as it might give white's attack additional strength.
  
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MNb
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #16 - 10/21/10 at 20:00:23
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Better 14...Kb8 15.Qe2 Rhe8 16.b6 a6 and now 17.Bxa6 is less harmless (if an attack does not crash through immediately, make another preparatory move), though not winning. So 16.Be3 (same principle) Nf5 17.b6 a6 and now 18.Bxa6, which is still unclear.
I am not sure if line A is critical. That bishop on f5 is a nuisance.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/21/10 at 17:55:49:
White's pawns a and b are somewhat lacking support of White's minor pieces.
That's why I am looking for ways to improve White's piece arrangement and am not sure about line A being critical.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #15 - 10/21/10 at 17:55:49
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MNb wrote on 10/21/10 at 15:59:50:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/21/10 at 14:52:41:
(a) 10.b4 (Caveman Variation) 10...d5 11.a4 Bd6 12.a5 Ne7 13.b5 Bf5 14.b6 a6 15.bxc7 Qxc7 "despite the weaknesses it seems that Black can hold" - so far the fine analysis analysis by linksspringer.

This is what I mean. Every experienced attacking player should know that 14.b6 is too early, no matter what the engines say, if there is no decisive follow up like the sac 15.Bxa6. In fact I think Black is already better after 15...Qxc7 as White's weaknesses (a5 and c3, Bishop c1) seem more important than Black's.
I probably would play 14.Be3 idea 15.c4, while I also like Rybka's 14.Bf4 better.
As in this type of pawn storm the battery Bd3, Qe2 would be ideal line B might even be better: 10.Nf4 Bf7 11.b4 d5 12.a4 Bd6 13.a5 Ne7 14.b5 h5 (Black might have better here) 15.b6 a6 16.Qe2 g5 17.Nh3 Be6 18.Nxg5 fxg5 19.Bxa6 with a dangerous attack indeed.

Note: How ridiculous that an 1800 patzer tries to teach two titled players how to conduct a pawn storm; but I simply think I am right here. Cheesy

The battery Bd3, Qe2 and Bxa6 doesn't work too well if Black is cautious. Even after 14...h5 15.b6 a6, the continuation Be2 followed by Nd3-c5 is probably more dangerous for Black. But similarly as in line (a), where I gave 14...Kb8 as a good alternative, Black should rather play the flexible 14...Kb8 (and not 14...h5). Then 15.b6 a6 would be harmless.

My impression is that the immediate 10.b4 is more critical. In some cases the Ne2 may go via c1 and b3 to c5. - White certainly has += after 7.c3. But his pawns a and b are somewhat lacking support of White's minor pieces, and the open e-file helps Black. Black shouldn't push his h- and g-pawn, this is a race he cannot win. But the task to defend Black's position seems managable.
  
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MNb
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #14 - 10/21/10 at 15:59:50
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/21/10 at 14:52:41:
(a) 10.b4 (Caveman Variation) 10...d5 11.a4 Bd6 12.a5 Ne7 13.b5 Bf5 14.b6 a6 15.bxc7 Qxc7 "despite the weaknesses it seems that Black can hold" - so far the fine analysis analysis by linksspringer.

This is what I mean. Every experienced attacking player should know that 14.b6 is too early, no matter what the engines say, if there is no decisive follow up like the sac 15.Bxa6. In fact I think Black is already better after 15...Qxc7 as White's weaknesses (a5 and c3, Bishop c1) seem more important than Black's.
I probably would play 14.Be3 idea 15.c4, while I also like Rybka's 14.Bf4 better.
As in this type of pawn storm the battery Bd3, Qe2 would be ideal line B might even be better: 10.Nf4 Bf7 11.b4 d5 12.a4 Bd6 13.a5 Ne7 14.b5 h5 (Black might have better here) 15.b6 a6 16.Qe2 g5 17.Nh3 Be6 18.Nxg5 fxg5 19.Bxa6 with a dangerous attack indeed.

Note: How ridiculous that an 1800 patzer tries to teach two titled players how to conduct a pawn storm; but I simply think I am right here. Cheesy
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #13 - 10/21/10 at 14:52:41
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(1.e4 d6 2.d4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bxd3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nc6 6.Nxf6+ exf6 7.c3 Be6 8.Ne2) [b]8...Qd7![/b]
(ouch, my analysis 8...d5? was flawed) 9.0-0 0-0-0, and here we have two variations:

(a) 10.b4 (Caveman Variation) 10...d5 11.a4 Bd6 12.a5 Ne7 13.b5 Bf5 14.b6 a6 15.bxc7 Qxc7 "despite the weaknesses it seems that Black can hold" - so far the fine analysis analysis by linksspringer. Black can also consider 14...Kb8!?.

(b) 10. Nf4 Bf7 11.a4 (I don't think that Re1 is very promising) 11...d5 12.b4 (12.a5 a6 13.b4 Na7) 12...Bd6 13.a5 Ne7, which is similar to "a".
  
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #12 - 10/21/10 at 12:25:53
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From a practical point of view, it might be hard for some white players to decline the exchange and go for 7.c3 instead...

After 7.Qh5 black has very promising play!
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #11 - 10/21/10 at 10:02:59
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[quote author=45464C4A2B0 link=1287567859/10#10 date=1287644522]Does White have to attack like a caveman anyway? I had the impression that with moves like Nf4, Qe2, Re1, accentuating the space advantage and the weakness of e6, White can place his opponent in a difficult position.[/quote]
It seems that Black has just enough time to play 0-0-0, Bf7, Re8 to neutralise the pressure on e6.

[quote author=0D0E22400 link=1287567859/9#9 date=1287620038]I am more pessimistic. If the defence holds Black still will not have organized counterplay, which means that White has all the time to reinforce his/her attack.
To use another formulation: I suspect that Black's play on the kingside will be too slow to force a weakness around White's King in time. Of course play will become extremely complicated, so no doubt you will be able to outplay a patzer like me.  ;)[/quote]
No, I agree with this human reasoning. However, I find it hard to prove this intuition with concrete variations against an engine. Here is an example of a very direct "caveman" attack:
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bxd3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nc6 6.Nxf6+ exf6 7.c3 Be6 8.Ne2 Qd7)
9.0-0 0-0-0 10.b4 d5 11.a4 [11.b5 Na5] 11...Bd6 12.a5 Ne7 13.b5 [13.Ba3, 13.Bf4, 13.a6] 13...Bf5 14.b6 a6 15.bxc7 Qxc7 despite the weaknesses it seems that Black can hold.
  
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #10 - 10/21/10 at 07:02:02
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Does White have to attack like a caveman anyway? I had the impression that with moves like Nf4, Qe2, Re1, accentuating the space advantage and the weakness of e6, White can place his opponent in a difficult position.
  
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MNb
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #9 - 10/21/10 at 00:13:58
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I am more pessimistic. If the defence holds Black still will not have organized counterplay, which means that White has all the time to reinforce his/her attack.
To use another formulation: I suspect that Black's play on the kingside will be too slow to force a weakness around White's King in time. Of course play will become extremely complicated, so no doubt you will be able to outplay a patzer like me.  Wink
  

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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #8 - 10/20/10 at 20:13:44
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/20/10 at 15:38:32:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss49.pdf

The last one (#49) was published after Kaissiber #30 came out, it has some new material.

Thanks Stefan! I was aware of the newer material, but was looking for it in Kaissiber.  Cheesy

MNb wrote on 10/20/10 at 16:47:56:
linksspringer wrote on 10/20/10 at 14:15:31:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bxd3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nc6 6.Nxf6+ exf6 7.c3 Be6 8.Ne2 Qd7 followed by castling long. This could be worth further investigation.

After 9.0-0 0-0-0 10.b4 White's attack looks the more dangerous one to me.

That was my initial impression too. However, the engines are proving to be tough defenders! I am still looking into it. If it holds, the prospect of opposite castling makes this variation more appetising.
  
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MNb
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #7 - 10/20/10 at 16:47:56
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linksspringer wrote on 10/20/10 at 14:15:31:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bxd3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nc6 6.Nxf6+ exf6 7.c3 Be6 8.Ne2 Qd7 followed by castling long. This could be worth further investigation.

After 9.0-0 0-0-0 10.b4 White's attack looks the more dangerous one to me.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #6 - 10/20/10 at 15:55:35
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Thanks to all! Alas, that 8 Nh3 idea looks like a sad end to the 5 ...Ne4 variation ...  Cry

I did look at (and dislike) the 5 ...Nc6/8 ...Qd7 line a while back, but it was only a superficial look. Maybe something like this is the way to go ....
  
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #5 - 10/20/10 at 15:38:32
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Thanks, Linksspringer!  Smiley My three chesscafe articles on the topic may also be worth a look:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss13.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss17.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss49.pdf

The last one (#49) was published after Kaissiber #30 came out, it has some new material.

TN wrote on 10/20/10 at 13:19:45:
I think 3.ef5 Bf5 4.Ne2!? Nf6 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 should suffice for an edge. If 4...Nc6 then 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bb5 a6 7.Ba4 also favours White. Perhaps Black should return the bishop to d7, but then White can develop normally and meet ...Nc6 with d5 to secure a central space advantage. 

In the first article there was a variation with 4.Nf3 and Bc4. Isn't the Ng3 a bit misplaced regarding the fight on the white squares? For example, 4.Ne2 Qd7 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 d5 7.Bd3 Nc6 or Bxd3, in both cases the Ng3 isn't the happiest piece on the board. 
  
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #4 - 10/20/10 at 14:15:31
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I have found a short article by Buecker in Kaissiber 30. The main points summarised:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bxd3 fxe4
4...Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.exf5 Nxd3+ 7.Qxd3 Qd7 8.Nge2! Qxf5 9.Qc4 e6 10.dxe6 +/- (Ortwin Thal)
5.Nxe4 Nc6
5...Nxe4 6.Bxe4 g6 7.Qf3! c6 8.Nh3! +/- (Buecker)
5...g6 6.Nxf6+ exf6 7.Ne2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Nf4 +/- (Buecker)
6.Nxf6+ exf6 7.c3
7.Qh5+ g6 8.Bxg6+ hxg6 9.Qxh8 Qe7+ Black has sufficient compensation (Buecker)
7...Be6 8.Ne2 d5 9.Nf4 Bf7 10.0-0 Qd7 11.Re1+ Be7 Black is passive, but stable, += (Buecker)

edit: I notice that he engines suggest 8...Qd7 followed by castling long. This could be worth further investigation.
  
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #3 - 10/20/10 at 13:19:45
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I think 3.ef5 Bf5 4.Ne2!? Nf6 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 should suffice for an edge. If 4...Nc6 then 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bb5 a6 7.Ba4 also favours White. Perhaps Black should return the bishop to d7, but then White can develop normally and meet ...Nc6 with d5 to secure a central space advantage.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #2 - 10/20/10 at 12:01:13
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Thanks for this linksspringer -- look forward to learning more!
  
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Re: Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
Reply #1 - 10/20/10 at 11:42:55
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Stefan Buecker published some critical updates in Kaissiber. I think he refuted 6...g6 but proposed some new ideas in the 5...Nc6 line, will have a look later.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Balogh Defence 1 e4 d6 2 d4 f5!?
10/20/10 at 09:44:19
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There's been quite a lot of incidental comment about this defence, but so far as I know no dedicated thread, so I thought I'd start one. I placed it here rather than in Daring Defences since I imagine the Balogh is more commonly reached from 1 e4 than from 1 d4 (or 1 Nf3). The main continuations are 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bd3 and 3 ef Bf5, and useful easy-to-find online articles by Keith Hayward and Stefan Bücker will quickly put anyone unfamiliar with the defence in the picture.

Let me say at once that, after 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bd3 fe 5 Ne4, thus far I'm a fan of the combative 5 ...Ne4 6 Be4 g6!? rather than of the alternative, 5 ...Nc6, whereupon 6 Nf6 ef 7 c3! Be6 (what else?) 8 Ne2 seems to me to leave Black with a thankless position. I'm ready to believe this can be defended, but Black is very passively placed and has to keep constant watch on the kingside -- not what I'm looking for in any defence, let alone a 'tricky' one!

But I think it's very possible that White's best options are the less advertised ones. On 3 ef Bf5 4 c4, 4 ...e5!? is meant to be OK, but what about 4 Nf3 Nf6 (not forced of course) 5 c4? Hayward skates over the rather strange game Keemink--Balogh which went 5 ...Qd7 6 Be2 e6 7 0-0 Be7 8 Nc3 0-0 9 Re1 Nc6 10 a3 Ng4 11 h3, draw agreed -- but just this, even without Black's (to me) incomprehensible tenth move, looks to me slightly grim for Black. I wondered therefore if the ...e5 idea could be used in this line too. It doesn't seem to work on move five after 6 de Qe7 7 Qb3! c5 (I haven't looked at 7 ...b6 yet) 8 Nc3, but maybe on move six ... (Of course there's 6 Bd3 to look at as well as 6 Be2.)

So, is the Balogh an interesting dynamic option, or one-trick-pony Balogh-ney?



  
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