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Normal Topic C10: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really = ? (Read 2793 times)
Gorath
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Re: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really simply = ?
Reply #7 - 11/10/10 at 18:23:22
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Thanks! Smiley How does his analysis continue after Bh6?

I've had a brief look at this with Stockfish's help. My first impressions are:

16.Bh6 Rd8 17.Qe3! with the threat Bg5. White keeps a strong initiative. Untangling the black pieces is not trivial, black needs to be very precise.

16.Bh6 Bf5 17.Qxb7 in these complications white is usually better. I didn't find a clear way for black to stabilize the situation yet.

An observation:
The tactics involving a black Qh4, Bxh2 and Qxc4, in one order or the other, are almost always good for white (!) because he has an immediate counter punch. Often it's Bxf7+.
  
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Re: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really simply = ?
Reply #6 - 11/03/10 at 11:40:44
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Gorath wrote on 11/03/10 at 07:56:26:
Djy wrote on 11/02/10 at 14:25:53:
14.Bc4!? Tzermiadinos thinks it's better than Bxh6

Interesting. What does he say? Khalifman only gives one short line:
14.Bc4 h5!? 15.Re1 Bd6 16.h3 c6 = as an improvement over Shevelevich - Karpatchev, Simferopol 1989.

He says 16.Bh6! insead of 16.h3
  

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Re: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really simply = ?
Reply #5 - 11/03/10 at 07:56:26
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Djy wrote on 11/02/10 at 14:25:53:
14.Bc4!? Tzermiadinos thinks it's better than Bxh6

Interesting. What does he say? Khalifman only gives one short line:
14.Bc4 h5!? 15.Re1 Bd6 16.h3 c6 = as an improvement over Shevelevich - Karpatchev, Simferopol 1989.
  
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Re: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really simply = ?
Reply #4 - 11/02/10 at 14:25:53
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Gorath wrote on 11/01/10 at 14:39:43:
I got into this variation in a game this weekend. It turned out I found Khalifman's recommendation over the board for a couple of moves. After the game my opponent showed me the main line, which is the same Khalifman also gives (although I'm pretty sure my opponent was unaware of this).

4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6 Qxf6 6.Nf3 h6 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.c3 0-0 10. Qe2 e5 11.Qe4 g6
Now I made an inexplicable blunder and took the pawn on h6. After 12.- Bf5 white should have lost, but the game ended in a draw rather quickly.
Khalifman's main line:
12.dxe5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 Bxe5 14.Bxh6 .


14.Bc4!? Tzermiadinos thinks it's better than Bxh6
  

La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence  Gainsbourg
La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat!  Coluche
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Re: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really simply = ?
Reply #3 - 11/02/10 at 07:13:42
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Gorath wrote on 11/01/10 at 14:39:43:
I don't think this is a position a 2100 amateur player can realistically expect to win against a prepared opponent of similar strength.


I disagree entirely. Material is equal, but White has several small advantages:

a) Black's passed pawn on c7 is a weakness since it cannot advance easily, and when White brings a rook to c1, Black's major pieces will be tied to its defence. In an ideal situation White could also target the a7-pawn, combined with advancing the king and creating a kingside passed pawn.

b) White's king is safer than Black's as Black does not have a h-pawn on the board. This means that in a queen plus rook endgame, White will be able to obtain a strong initiative with Rd7 and utilise Black's somewhat airy kingside.

c) While Black's passed pawn on c7 is vulnerable, White will be able to create a strong passed pawn with g4 and h4-h5. Black's king will be tied up preventing the pawn from promoting, and meanwhile White will be able to bring his king to the queenside.

These factors provide White with some winning chances. Black cannot hope for more than a draw, whereas White can press for a win until dawn. You can't expect to get a clear advantage just because Black isn't playing the Winawer or Classical.

About preparation, I wouldn't worry. 4...Nf6 players are trying to avoid theory, albeit at the cost of giving White += on a silver platter. Show me a 2100 player who has prepared something for Black after 22.Rad1, and I'll show you a GM who is out of book before move six.

  

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Re: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really simply = ?
Reply #2 - 11/02/10 at 03:32:35
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Thanks. I forgot one move (9.- 0-0 10.Be4).

I've modified the initial post and extended the analyzed variations. Source for everything is Khalifman, Anand  Vol.6, pp 83-88.
  
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Re: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really simply = ?
Reply #1 - 11/01/10 at 17:35:18
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After the logical 9.Re1 Rd8 isn´t possible since Black hasn´t castled already. I haven´t found a game played by Szabo with this line.

Perhaps you could check this...
  
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C10: 3. Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 - is this really = ?
11/01/10 at 14:39:43
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I got into this variation in a game this weekend. It turned out I found Khalifman's recommendation over the board for a couple of moves. After the game my opponent showed me the main line, which is the same Khalifman also gives (although I'm pretty sure my opponent was unaware of this).

4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6 Qxf6 6.Nf3 h6 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.c3 0-0 10. Qe2 e5 11.Qe4 g6
Now I made an inexplicable blunder and took the pawn on h6. After 12.- Bf5 white should have lost, but the game ended in a draw rather quickly.
Khalifman's main line:
12.dxe5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 Bxe5 14.Bxh6 Bf5 15.Qc4 b5 16.Qxb5 Rfb8 17.Qc4 Bxd3 18.Qxd3 Rxb2 [18. - g5 19.Qe2! +/-]19.Bc1! Rb7 20.Be3 Rd8 21. Qc4 Bxc3 22.Rad1 +=
I don't think this is a position a 2100 amateur player can realistically expect to win against a prepared opponent of similar strength.

Indeed even Khalifman suggests to deviate earlier, but none of his lines leads to anything tangible:
10.Nd2 (with the idea Qh5 and Ne4. Then either kingside attack or gain the bishops pair on d6) is interesting, but leads to clear equality after a couple of precise defensive moves by black:
10.- Qh4 11.g3 Qd8 12.Ne4 e5 13.Qh5 Qd7 14.h4!? Be7! 15.Bxh6 Qg4 16.Qxg4 Bxg4 17.Be3 exd4 18.cxd4 Rfd8 19.Rfc1 Rac8 with compensation; and Black regains his sacrificed pawn.
The whole analysis is nearly a page long.

9. Re1 stops the e5 break. 9.- 0-0 10.Be4 Rd8! (10.- Bd7 ?! 11.Ne5! N Khalifman) leads to equality following an old game by Szabo: 11.Be3 Bd7 12.c4 Be8 13.Db3 a5 unclear. L.Szabo - van den Tol, Zaandam 1946. 


Is there a way to gain a normal opening advantage? Or at least a way to force black into a fighting position where some precision is required and where the pieces get into contact?

edit:
One variation corrected, all variations extended.
« Last Edit: 07/21/11 at 20:30:14 by dom »  
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