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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern? (Read 7020 times)
HgMan
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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #14 - 01/02/15 at 01:13:35
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I'm very grateful for the good analysis above. There's some very insightful material. Having played this (poorly) as Black, I recently found opportunity to play this as White in a correspondence game. The game did not follow the text below, but I did note the interesting sacrifice from White, which I think suggests the rich possibilities available in the position. Naturally, Black can improve, but I thought the position seemed fairly innocuous before 14.Bxb5.



Based on the analysis above, I thought 9...e6 was worth a mention. It eliminates the d5 square for the knight after ...b4. In spite of the convincing nature of the sequence, I wonder if 10.Bd3 isn't actually better than 10.f4. I'm also a bit disappointed with 11.a3. It seems a concession to have to postpone the attack with this move, but I don't really see any better options, and I don't know how Black can take advantage of the extra move...
  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #13 - 11/14/10 at 11:01:51
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btw, after 9...Qc8 10.f4 now 10...Ngf6 is also immensely interesting. For some reason 10...Nh6 looks more logical to me but the positions arising are all so very complicated that I might be wrong and 10...Ngf6 could well turn out to be Blacks best try.

And your idea with 15.Bd3 is indeed very interesting. There are som wild drawing lines but I have no idea whether I have found the best moves for either side. However, my point still stands, unless you have deeply analyzed the lines arising after both 9...Qc8 and 9...Qb8 there is no reason to discard this line for Black, per se. I myself have looked at both lines and still havent found anything conclusive. And just to throw another curveball,

9...Qb8 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Nxe5 12.Bd4 c5 13.Bxc5 Nf6 14.f4 Nc6!? is not that easy to deal with either
  
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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #12 - 11/14/10 at 10:58:08
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Youre certainly right that Qc8 is in principle more logical. This is also the very reason I dont consider 10.e5 to be the best response to 9...Qb8 as this kind of play is exactly what Qb8 is aimed at.

In the lines starting from 9...Qc8 10.f4 Black now has the options of 10...Nh6. As Tiger also mentions Blacks knight is often better off on h6 when White has his pawn on f4. One of the main reasons (according to Tiger) that 9...Nh6 is not played directly in this line is because the knight looks passive and odd after the natural reply 10.f3

Anyway, after 9...Qc8 10.f4 Nh6 is still like Whites position but I on the other hand dont see any clear path to an advantage so I wouldnt mind playing behind the Black pieces either. Have any of you got any opinions on the position arising after aforementioned moves?
  
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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #11 - 11/14/10 at 10:43:06
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You might be right, though 15.Bd3 Qc7 16.Bxe7 looks quite dangerous to me. But my point is more principled: if ...c5 is such an important move, then the Queen is just better on c8 than on b8.
  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #10 - 11/14/10 at 10:28:46
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MNb wrote on Today at 02:45:03:
Stigma wrote on Yesterday at 21:40:38:
One question is what happens after 5.h4 h5 6.Qd2 b5 7.0-0-0 Bb7; what happens after 8.Nh3 b4!? is the question: 9.Nd5 e6? 10.Qxb4! is good for White, so 9...a5 must be played; I'm not sure how to assess this.

Neither am I. There is also 9.Ne2 Bxe4 10.Ng5 to consider.
8...Nd7 9.Ng5 Qb8 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Nxe5 12.Bd4 looks very good for White to me (something I welcome btw). After 9...Qc8 I would be tempted to play 10.f4, benefiting from not having played f2-f3.



Ive previously looked at the line you mention (1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. Qd2 b5 6. h4 h5 7. O-O-O Nd7 8. Nh3
Bb7 9. Ng5 Qb8!? 10. e5 dxe5 11. dxe5 Nxe5 12. Bd4)

...but now after 12...c5! im not sure that White is better. My main line goes: 13.Bxc5 Nf6 14.f4 Neg4 15.Re1 0-0! 16.Bxe7 Re8 and Black seems to be OK.
  
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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #9 - 11/14/10 at 02:51:32
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MNb wrote on 11/14/10 at 02:45:03:
Stigma wrote on 11/13/10 at 21:40:38:
One question is what happens after 5.h4 h5 6.Qd2 b5 7.0-0-0 Bb7; what happens after 8.Nh3 b4!? is the question: 9.Nd5 e6? 10.Qxb4! is good for White, so 9...a5 must be played; I'm not sure how to assess this.

Neither am I. There is also 9.Ne2 Bxe4 10.Ng5 to consider.
8...Nd7 9.Ng5 Qb8 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Nxe5 12.Bd4 looks very good for White to me (something I welcome btw). After 9...Qc8 I would be tempted to play 10.f4, benefiting from not having played f2-f3.


Yes Tiger makes that point too; Black is in more danger if White can still play f4 in one move.

I'm really starting to feel that the early ...h5 in reply to h4 shoud be avoided by Black, certainly Tiger himself moving away from it is a hint.

Btw. I don't understand why so many strong players start with 5.h4; it seems more difficult for Black to have to choose between 5.Qd2 Nd7 (losing the ...Bxh3 option) and 5.Qd2 b5 before he even knows if h4 will be played.
  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #8 - 11/14/10 at 02:45:03
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Stigma wrote on 11/13/10 at 21:40:38:
One question is what happens after 5.h4 h5 6.Qd2 b5 7.0-0-0 Bb7; what happens after 8.Nh3 b4!? is the question: 9.Nd5 e6? 10.Qxb4! is good for White, so 9...a5 must be played; I'm not sure how to assess this.

Neither am I. There is also 9.Ne2 Bxe4 10.Ng5 to consider.
8...Nd7 9.Ng5 Qb8 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Nxe5 12.Bd4 looks very good for White to me (something I welcome btw). After 9...Qc8 I would be tempted to play 10.f4, benefiting from not having played f2-f3.

  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #7 - 11/14/10 at 00:57:09
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In the line mentioned above I suggest that you could look at lines starting from 9...Qb8 and also 9...Qc8. White may be better in these lines but I still havent found any clear-cut paths to advantage. Blacks does have quite a few interesting plans at his disposal and if youre content with an unclear position I certainly think Black is still fine in this variation...
  
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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #6 - 11/13/10 at 21:40:38
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MNb wrote on 11/13/10 at 21:23:29:
It seems to me that White can postpone the move Nh3: 5.h4 h5 6.Qd2 b5 7.0-0-0 and only after ...Nd7 or Bb7 8.Nh3. Or is 6...Nf6/7...Nf6 stronger in this case?
These move order issues have always quite puzzled me. To make things a bit more complicated, after an early ...b5 there is always a2-a4 to consider.


If that's true it's good news for White since he can play the same plan (Nh3-g5 without f3) against both ...Nd7 and ...b5 move orders.

One question is what happens after 5.h4 h5 6.Qd2 b5 7.0-0-0 Bb7; I think most Whites would overprotect e4 here with f2-f3 but we're trying to avoid that (Black would play a quick ...Nd7 and ...Rc8 planning ...c5, with good play according to Tiger's Modern). So what happens after 8.Nh3 b4!? is the question: 9.Nd5 e6? 10.Qxb4! is good for White, so 9...a5 must be played; I'm not sure how to assess this.

I found one game with 8.Nh3, but Black declined the challenge:

[Event "Politiken Cup"]
[Site "Helsingor DEN"]
[Date "2009.07.26"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Berg, K."]
[Black "Veng, J."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B06"]
[WhiteElo "2432"]
[BlackElo "2243"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. d4 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. Qd2 b5 6. h4 h5 7. O-O-O Bb7 8. Nh3 Nd7 (8... b4 9. Nd5 a5) 9. Ng5 Rc8 10. f4 Nh6 11. e5 Nf8 12. Bd3 Qd7 13. Rhe1 b4 14. Nce4 a5 15. Bg1 Bd5 16. c4 bxc3 17. Nxc3 c6 18. Nxd5 cxd5+ 19. Kb1 dxe5 20. Qxa5 Rb8 21. dxe5 Ne6 22. a4 O-O 23. Bb5 Rxb5 24. Qxb5 Qxb5 25. axb5 Nxf4 26. g3 Ne6 27. Rxd5 Ng4 28. b6 Nxg5 29. hxg5 Rb8 30. Rd7 Bf8 31. b7 1-0
  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #5 - 11/13/10 at 21:23:29
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It seems to me that White can postpone the move Nh3: 5.h4 h5 6.Qd2 b5 7.0-0-0 and only after ...Nd7 or Bb7 8.Nh3. Or is 6...Nf6/7...Nf6 stronger in this case?
These move order issues have always quite puzzled me. To make things a bit more complicated, after an early ...b5 there is always a2-a4 to consider.
  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #4 - 11/13/10 at 16:01:26
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Just looked at Davies on 4.Be3 a6 and he doesn't really adress the problem, following his 1987 game with Anand: 5.h4 Nf6 6.f3 b5 7.Qd2 Bb7 8.0-0-0 h5 9.Nh3 Nbd7 10.Kb1 Rc8 etc.

But White can deny Black this setup by simply inserting 5.Qd2 Nbd7 and only now 6.h4 (not mentioned by Davies). If black tries to follow his play against Anand, after 6...Ngf6 7.f3 b5 8.0-0-0 White threatens e4-e5! and after 8...Bb7 9.g4 I prefer White, though 9...h6 may be playable. Instead of meeting 6.h4 with ...h6 immediately which gives White f2-f4 options, here White is at least committed to f2-f3.

Alternatively 6...h5 (Tiger's move) 7.Nh3 b5 8.Ng5 has scored phenomenally for White since Tiger's book came out - the point is that White doesn't need to spend time on f2-f3 if he can protect e4 with the knight from g5.

Maybe the solution lies in combining an early ...h5 and ...Ngf6 somehow, but then Black's counterplay on the queenside is slower. Or meeting h4 with ...h6 instead of ...h5, a plan Tiger disliked but it's been played by a few strong players since.

Edit: In my database Hillarp Persson himself has indeed played setups with ...h6 more often in the last few years. I also looked at the world's strongest occasional a6-Modern player, Peter Svidler, who has tried several different move orders after 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6:

- An early Ngf6 a la Davies: 5. Qd2 Nd7 6. h4 Ngf6 7. f3 b5 8. O-O-O Bb7 9.Bh6 (9.g4!?) 9...Bxh6 10.Qxh6 e5 11.d5 Qe7 12.g4 Nb6 (Maze-Svidler, 2006)

- Meeting h4 with ...h6: 5. h4 h6 6. Qd2 b5 7. f3 Nd7 8. O-O-O Nb6 9. Nh3 Nf6 10. Nf4 Nfd7 11. Ncd5 Nxd5 12. exd5 Nb6 (Naiditsch-Svidler, 2009)

- Meeting h4 with ...h5 and Nh3 with ...Bxh3: 5. h4 h5 6. Nh3 Bxh3 7. Rxh3 Nd7 8. Qd2 c5 9. O-O-O cxd4 10. Bxd4 Bxd4 11. Qxd4 Ngf6 1/2-1/2 (Meier-Svidler, 2009)

This last idea has also been played by Hillarp Persson, but it's not possible with 5.Qd2 Nd7 inserted. Tiger's Modern also discusses 5.Qd2 b5!? which keeps this ...Bxh3 option open but allows 6.a4 b5 7.Nd1 and Black must move his a-pawn again (6.h4 h5 7.a4!? is also possible).
« Last Edit: 11/13/10 at 17:52:36 by Stigma »  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #3 - 11/13/10 at 14:44:15
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Both are very god at explaining the typical themes and plans of the opening, but the concrete theory needs serious repair work. It's possible to lose very quickly with this defence if one doesn't know exactly the best move orders (something Tiger admits).

Certainly the critical variations to decide whether to play these lines are 4.Be3, 4.f4, 4.Bg5 and the Averbakh (c4 from White). Against the latter I really think Black should transpose to the King's Indian, so the suspicious lines Tiger and Davies recommend there don't really bother me.

Apart from that I've looked closely at Davies' coverage of 4.f4 e6 and Tiger's of 4.Be3 a6, and found it very easy to improve for White against both. Now I'm just hoping each author had more luck with the other critical chapters (4.f4 a6 and 4.Bg5 a6 Tiger; 4.Be3 a6 and 4.Bg5 Nc6 Davies).

Tiger's recommendations are also in trouble against the "Accelerated Classical" Pirc (with Nf3, h3 and Be3) which has been discussed a bit on the forum. If Tiger still believes in the Modern, maybe it's time for a 2nd editition?!
  

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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #2 - 11/13/10 at 13:23:11
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TN wrote on 11/13/10 at 06:28:07:
In that case, the two books complement each other very well.

However, I don't think c4 is such a great move that it should be played twice.


Good catch. I guess I should have looked at the moves closer before I copied and pasted.
  
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Re: Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
Reply #1 - 11/13/10 at 06:28:07
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In that case, the two books complement each other very well.

However, I don't think c4 is such a great move that it should be played twice.
  

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Davies Modern vs. Tiger's Modern?
11/13/10 at 03:52:52
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I was wondering if Nigel Davies "Starting Out: The Modern Defense" and "Tiger's Modern" cover the same variations, and if anyone who's read both could compare them? I know they both deal with an early a6 by black, but that's about all I know.

Davies' book covers these variations. I don't know about Tiger's.

1.e4, 1.d4 and 1.c4.
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 e6
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Bg5 Nc6
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Bc4 e6
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nge2 Nc6
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.g3 Nc6
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 a6
1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.c4 a6
1.c4 g6 2.Nc3 Bg7 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 d6
  
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