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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Best line against the Toilet variation? (Read 7646 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #13 - 02/12/11 at 18:59:59
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3..d4! is best. 4.Nce2 Nc6 5.Nf3 and now if you want to liven things up, you might try 5..g6 (the idea is to meet 6.Nb3 with 6..Bh6, while 6.d3 Nf6 leaves Black well-placed) or 5..Bg4 Ng3 6.Qc7!?, again hitting f4.
  
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #12 - 01/27/11 at 19:59:14
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Just play dxe4 and Nf6, then look for aggressive moves.  Dude moved his f pawn and the center is open-ish.  You can't play a forcing line from move 3 in every opening.  White either captures on f6, assisting your development and embarrassing his f pawn, or loses a tempo retreating the knight.  Black isn't better, but equality on a plate isn't a bad result at move 4 with Black!

It is, of course, exactly what you expect against anti-sicilians.

Hence why anti-sicilians get derogatory names.
  
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #11 - 12/03/10 at 09:46:11
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/03/10 at 00:32:40:
I think I'm going to concentrate on 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 e6 5.Nf3

Imo Black is fine. This is a major reason for me not to play the GPA: 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 is that transposition. Black can even play it after 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 e6 (why give White the pleasure to sac the Queen after dxe4 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4 Bg4 6.Qxg4 Nxg4 7.Bxf7+ ?) and White has nothing better than 4.Nc3.
  

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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #10 - 12/03/10 at 05:39:00
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I guess I stand corrected Wink nice to know a bit more of the history.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #9 - 12/03/10 at 00:32:40
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Anyway back to the original topic: there doesn't seem to be a clear best line of play for Black.  As interesting as 3...Nf6 looks, I think I'm going to concentrate on 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 e6 5.Nf3, which transposes to Palliser's book.  For my upcoming game, this is a position I can be 99% sure of reaching so I'll start my preparation from here.
  
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #8 - 12/02/10 at 22:07:28
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trw wrote on 12/02/10 at 17:14:20:
Pretty sure the name of the line is the McDonnell not 'Toliet' variation. It seems any non-open Sicilian has to be named derogatorily by the black player.

Wrong. Gary Lane explains it in his 1997 book. Mark Hebden told everybody on which place exactly he got the idea of playing 3.Nc3. Still in the contents you will read "Hebden Variation".
McDonnell only played something not even that similar against the French: 1.e4 e6 2.f4 d5 3.e5 and 4.Nf3. It was Cochrane who played 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.e5 as first. The oldest game with 3.Nc3 stems from 1968. Hebden was second.
  

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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #7 - 12/02/10 at 19:20:51
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Back in McDonnell's day, the standard plan against he Sicilian was 2.f4 and meet ...d5 at almost any point with e4-e5. Of course it's not impossible that the old maestro tried 3.Nc3 in a game, though I can't find any games of his where he even faced 2...d5 in the Mega database.

It's often a bit random which name actually sticks to a line in popular usage. Probably the "Toilet" is simply a better meme - much more memorable! And actually Hebden - Niklasson, 1979 is only the second game in the database with 3.Nc3, so it's not unreasonable that Hebden gets to name it (the first game was between to unknowns at the 1968 Olympiad).
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #6 - 12/02/10 at 19:13:34
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trw wrote on 12/02/10 at 17:14:20:
Pretty sure the name of the line is the McDonnell not 'Toliet' variation. It seems any non-open Sicilian has to be named derogatorily by the black player.


And I'm pretty sure that Mark Hebden invented it and named it himself, though I doubt he thought the name would catch on.  At least that's the story I've heard from numerous sources, if you know something else let me know.

To clarify, I've heard 1.e4 c5 2.f4 called the Grand Prix or McDonnell Attack.  After 2...d5 we have the Tal Gambit, and Hebden jokingly named 3.Nc3 the Toilet variation (perhaps we should just call it the Tal Gambit declined)?
  
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trw
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #5 - 12/02/10 at 17:14:20
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Pretty sure the name of the line is the McDonnell not 'Toliet' variation. It seems any non-open Sicilian has to be named derogatorily by the black player.
  
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #4 - 12/01/10 at 16:41:37
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TicklyTim wrote on 12/01/10 at 16:09:02:
How about: 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 d4!?
4.Nce2 Nc6 5.d3 tends to become a KID with colours reversed, while White has used the extra tempo for the very useful f2-f4.

3.Nc3 Nf6 looks attractive indeed. Compare 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 or 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 and Black can argue that the extra move ...c5 is more useful than f4.
1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6
a) 4.exd5 Nxd5 is the same as 3.exd5 Nf6 4.Nc3 Nxd5.
b) 4.e5 Nfd7 (if you really want something surprising try 4...Ng4) 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 and Black does not have to play the French as 6...cxd4 is possible: 7.Nxd4 Nxd4 8.Qxd4 a6 and Black argues that he/she is better off compared to 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Nxd4 9.Bxd4.

4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nxd5 Nxe5 6.Ne3 is an offbeat Alekhine: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 4.Nxd5 Nxe5 5.Ne3 c5 6.f4 Nec6 7.Bc4 (7.Nf3 Tartakower-Landau, Rotterdam 1930) e6 8.Nf3 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 followed by ...Nd7 and ...Nf6 (Bagirov). Perhaps 8...Bd6 is a way to benefit.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #3 - 12/01/10 at 16:09:02
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How about: 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 d4!?
Looks a bit like something that could arise from a (very)minor Scandinavian or the 1.Nc3 variation.
Might be a bit more lively and allows black to claim some space (if want something more than 'solid').
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #2 - 12/01/10 at 14:47:56
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After 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 I'd go for 4...Nfd7 with a possible French.  After 5.Nxd5 Nxe5 6.Nc3 I'm not sure it's any better than just playing 3...dxe4.

I'm not looking for a forced advantage, just a sharper option that I can prepare ahead of time.  Most of the lines I'm seeing are fairly non-forcing and not all that sharp though.
  
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Re: Best line against the Toilet variation?
Reply #1 - 12/01/10 at 09:54:54
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I would not be too happy with Black after 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 d4 5.exf6 dxc3 6.fxg7 cxd2 7.Qxd2.
On the other hand, 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 fxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 looks decent, as White's pawn duo is destroyed and 6.Nxf6 exf6 would make his f-pawn look silly. However, White has made no real mistakes and you can't expect more than equality and technical game after e.g. 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.d3.
  
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ErictheRed
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Best line against the Toilet variation?
12/01/10 at 05:16:15
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I've got an upcoming game against someone who always plays the move order 1.e4 c5 2.f4, and the only game I've seen him play against 2...d5 he replied with 3.Nc3 and went on to win against a higher rated player.  This player is in the low 2000s, so I assume he isn't just walking into this unprepared.

I'm not scared of the variation, but it's not that well covered in the books I have (Palliser's and Rogozenko's anti-Sicilian books).  I had thought of playing 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 de 4.Nxe4 e6, which must be fine for Black and should transpose into Palliser's analysis from the move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5.  However, it isn't very forcing and I'd like a more forcing, tactical line that I can prepare ahead of time.

Any ideas?  I wonder about 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6!?, for instance, which looks offhand like a slightly better version of 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 for Black.
  
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