You know what, I think I will wait a few days before replying again. I can't do all this every day. 
 
I don't know why Kasparov said that, but IMO 6. Be2 is still not worse than any other move for White. I doubt the move would be at least one of the most popular if it were objectively worse. Be2 can come directly after Be3. Kasparov isn't infalliable and can make simple mistakes. (just like how we could make a simple grammar or spelling... just mentioning there's the possibility that when you take a single line out of a long book that the author may have made an error).

MNb wrote, Quote:

(Interesting Freudian moment.)

My suggestion for Uhoh to wait a week before commenting again was meant in a spirit of helpfulness, not maliciousness.

I agree with Amet that 6.Be3 is certainly a trying line. It seems to be the most subtle of White's three main choices because of the various transpositions. It's not that it's so terribly dangerous in itself, it's that it gives Black enough rope to hang himself. Here's one line that could have transposed from 6.Be3 a6:




1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 h6 7. Be3 (7. h4 Nc6)
(7. h3 a6 !? (7... Nc6 {This is more popular, +2300, but doesn't score well.}))
7... a6 (7... Nc6 8. h3) 8. Qf3 (8. Bg2 {See Shirov-Sokolov, 2008 for a good
warning of what awaits.}) 8... Nbd7 (8... Nc6) 9. Rg1  9... Ne5 (9... g5) 10. Qh3
Nfxg4 (10... g5 11. Bxg5 (11. f4 gxf4 12. Bxf4 h5 13. gxh5 Rxh5 $15) 11...
Nexg4 (11... hxg5 12. Qxh8 b5 13. O-O-O b4 $5 (13... Bb7 14. f3 $16 (14. a3 {
Fritz +-}) 14... Rc8) 14. Nb1 (14. Nce2 {Fritz}) 14... Nfxg4 15. Nc6 $16) 12.
Be2 (12. Rxg4 hxg5 13. Qxh8 Nxg4 $15) 12... e5 13. Bxf6 Nxf6 14. Nf5 {This
gives white a nice edge, but is probably playable for Black.}) 11. Rxg4 Nxg4
12. Qxg4 e5 13. Nf5 g6 14. Nd5 $1 (14. O-O-O h5 (14... Bd7 15. Nd5 $14 (15.
Nxd6+ {This may be much better than it seems. Firebird scores it as equal, but
I think I've found a way for White to get a huge edge.})) (14... gxf5 15. exf5
h5 16. Qh3 $14) 15. Qh3 gxf5 (15... Be6 16. f4 Qc8 (16... Rc8 17. fxe5 Rxc3 18.
bxc3 Qa5 19. exd6 $1 (19. Bc4 Bxc4 20. Nxd6+ Bxd6 21. Qc8+ Qd8 22. Qxd8+ Kxd8
23. Rxd6+ (23. exd6) 23... Kc8 $11) 19... gxf5 20. exf5 Qa3+ 21. Kd2 Bxa2 22.
Qh4 Qxd6+ 23. Ke1 Be7 24. Qa4+ Qc6 25. Qxa2 $18) 17. Bd3 {Some correspondence
games suggest this is winning for White.} h4 (17... gxf5 $18 18. exf5 Bc4 19.
fxe5 Bxd3 20. Rxd3 dxe5 21. Nd5 Qc6 22. Qh4 f6 23. Nxf6+) 18. fxe5 dxe5 19. Bg5
$18 gxf5 20. exf5) 16. exf5 {White has a slight edge here.}) 14... gxf5 15. Qe2
Be6 (15... Qa5+ 16. b4 $18) 16. Bb6 Qh4 (16... Qc8 17. Nc7+ Ke7 18. exf5 Bxf5
19. O-O-O Rb8 20. Nd5+ Ke8 21. Bc7 $18) 17. Nc7+ {And White has a tremendous
edge.} 0-1

Unfortunately, the translation from chessbase to here makes it a mess to read. Is there an easy way to send a chessbase file here that makes it readable?

Well I do think the English attack with Nc6 could be relatively critical (along with the Keres etc) for the independent utility of the Scheveningen. Perhaps especially so for the e6/Nc6 move order

Its seemingly either the Nc6/a6 stuff or making 9..d5 work, so if 10 Be2 is a problem there its not great news.

Of course its hardly like the English attack lines with an early a6 are easy either, so an edge would be acceptable, so long as its relatively containable.

Not convinced that 6 Be3 Be7 7 g4 h6 etc can really be so bad. Isn't there'a big Keres main line with 6 ..h6, 7.. Be7 and a quickish d5? Ever present danger of ending up in a rubbish English attack of course. Thats always a real danger.

I'd been under the impression that 6 Be3 a6 7 Be2 mostly transposed back into the main line 6 Be2 a6 etc stuff? Certainly quite a few strong players seem to play 6 Be3 e6 7 Be2 in the Nardojf and it'd be nice to avoid it.

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 05:07:37:

Are you sure you mean "figure (B)"? Nobody here says that; the general opinion is that "figure (A)" gives more complex play and winning chances. For the reason why I advise you to consult a book or to play through a few games.

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 05:07:37:

Nobody said that 6.Be2 a6 gives White more options. The point is that it gives Black less options.
So (for the third time) show us the dangerous lines for White after 9...e5 and 9...Bd7, ie without ...a6.

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 05:07:37:

Uhoh, now that's a logical phallacy. You said explicitly in this thread that 6.g4 is not the reason that people prefer 5...a6 and that it is not more dangerous than 6.Be2. I want you to back this up after 9...e5 and 9...Bd7.
But now you retreat.
That makes a bad impression.
"I don't understand why people do not fear 6.Be2 but do fear 6.g4 against the Najdorf, but don't get into analysis myself."
Yeah, right.

Ametanoitos wrote on 03/11/11 at 07:18:29:
6.Be3 is a good move certainly, but I don't share your strong optimism about it. In particular, I can't believe that it helps this debate come down to the facts if you add a (!) to only this move.

6.Be3 is probably best answered by 6...a6. Then White has 7.f3 (English Attack), or 7.g4 (Perenyi Attack). Both sharp and interesting stuff. 7.Be2 makes less sense here than one move earlier because in the line 6.Be2 a6, White usually does not commit his dark-coloured bishop to e3.

Finally (6.Be3 a6) 7.Bc4 is a move that seems to mix up different plans and White will hardly get the best of both worlds after say 7...b5 8. Bb3 Bb7 9.f3 Nbd7.

Stigma wrote on 03/11/11 at 00:50:46:


Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable enough but I still don't see why White has more options, "complex play and winning chances" in figure (B). I also don't see why you changed the a6/e6 choice to the 9th move rather than the 6th.

So I still don't know why 6. Be2 is more dangerous against the Najdorf, or why it gives White more options.   

MNb wrote on 03/11/11 at 03:05:42:


But I didn't say it had to be played, I never said that. I made the argument that it was only about a quarter of lines or less that a6 wasn't played by Black, so in the vast majority of cases Black will play it anyway. So I stated that going by averages you could say it was worth 1/4 of a tempo (yes I know when it does happen it's worth a full tempo, but White should take into consideration that 3/4s of the time it won't and Black will play a6, based on his own theories and evaluation of the position).  

It's fine, I just asked questions and questioned statements made by others that appeared to me at the time to go against what some GMs do. That's why I wasn't getting into analysis much myself.  

@Uhohspaghettio: You don't understand the argument because it has more to do with time than with "where a piece is going to, or what moves are possible".

Quote:


Even more importantly, it's an argument about flexibility:

Position A) After 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 a6



Position B) After 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 e5



Both positions are currently theoretically acceptable as far as I know, and score well for Black on high levels. But in B) [MartinC's and Kasparov's line] it's harder for White to get complex play and winning chances. If Black has played 5...e6 he can still choose between these two lines (and others), while with 5...a6 6.Be2 e6 he is more or less committed to A) (it's possible to play an early ...Qc7 instead, but last time I looked that gave White some dangerous early g2-g4 options).

I've never said 6.Be2 was a bad move against 5...e6, only that it can't be the reason a Scheveningen player starts with 5...a6. That reason remains 6.g4 (or possibly the chance to vary with 5...a6 6.Be3 e5, 5...a6 6.Be3 Ng4 or 5...a6 6.Be2 e5). If 6.g4 is found to be not that dangerous for Black, the result will be a huge boost to the 5...e6 Scheveningen's popularity. Maybe that's about to happen, I wouldn't know.

Uhohspaghettio, try this:

Don't respond for a week or so. Then come back and re-read all the comments. I think you'll find that Stigma, MartinC, MNb, and chk are all making logical sense. It's you who seems to be obstinately clinging to an untenable position.