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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The best way to meet the Keres attack? (Read 22958 times)
Uhohspaghettio
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #59 - 03/11/11 at 17:49:45
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You know what, I think I will wait a few days before replying again. I can't do all this every day. 
 
I don't know why Kasparov said that, but IMO 6. Be2 is still not worse than any other move for White. I doubt the move would be at least one of the most popular if it were objectively worse. Be2 can come directly after Be3. Kasparov isn't infalliable and can make simple mistakes. (just like how we could make a simple grammar or spelling... just mentioning there's the possibility that when you take a single line out of a long book that the author may have made an error).
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #58 - 03/11/11 at 16:16:01
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Kasparov devotes two chapters to the Scheveningen in Garry Kasparov on Modern Chess: Revolution in the 70s(2007).

He devotes quite a bit of space to 6.Be2, but this is his conclusion:
"Nowadays White avoids the Neo-Scheveningen: after 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 he replies 6.g4 or 6.Be3, if 4...Nc6 --'a la Karpov' 5.Nb5 or 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4, and in addition he plays 6.Be3 followed by f4 and Qf3, or in the spirit of the English Attack, f2-f3, Qd2 and 0-0-0. " (p. 152)[Emphasis and color added.]

So even Kasparov agrees that currently the critical lines are 6.g4 or 6.Be3.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #57 - 03/11/11 at 14:18:12
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MNb wrote, Quote:
Uhoh, now that's a logical phallacy...

(Interesting Freudian moment.)

My suggestion for Uhoh to wait a week before commenting again was meant in a spirit of helpfulness, not maliciousness.

I agree with Amet that 6.Be3 is certainly a trying line. It seems to be the most subtle of White's three main choices because of the various transpositions. It's not that it's so terribly dangerous in itself, it's that it gives Black enough rope to hang himself. Here's one line that could have transposed from 6.Be3 a6:




1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 h6 7. Be3 (7. h4 Nc6)
(7. h3 a6 !? (7... Nc6 {This is more popular, +2300, but doesn't score well.}))
7... a6 (7... Nc6 8. h3) 8. Qf3 (8. Bg2 {See Shirov-Sokolov, 2008 for a good
warning of what awaits.}) 8... Nbd7 (8... Nc6) 9. Rg1  9... Ne5 (9... g5) 10. Qh3
Nfxg4
(10... g5 11. Bxg5 (11. f4 gxf4 12. Bxf4 h5 13. gxh5 Rxh5 $15) 11...
Nexg4 (11... hxg5 12. Qxh8 b5 13. O-O-O b4 $5 (13... Bb7 14. f3 $16 (14. a3 {
Fritz +-}) 14... Rc8) 14. Nb1 (14. Nce2 {Fritz}) 14... Nfxg4 15. Nc6 $16) 12.
Be2 (12. Rxg4 hxg5 13. Qxh8 Nxg4 $15) 12... e5 13. Bxf6 Nxf6 14. Nf5 {This
gives white a nice edge, but is probably playable for Black.}) 11. Rxg4 Nxg4
12. Qxg4 e5 13. Nf5 g6 14. Nd5 $1 (14. O-O-O h5 (14... Bd7 15. Nd5 $14 (15.
Nxd6+ {This may be much better than it seems. Firebird scores it as equal, but
I think I've found a way for White to get a huge edge.})) (14... gxf5 15. exf5
h5 16. Qh3 $14) 15. Qh3 gxf5 (15... Be6 16. f4 Qc8 (16... Rc8 17. fxe5 Rxc3 18.
bxc3 Qa5 19. exd6 $1 (19. Bc4 Bxc4 20. Nxd6+ Bxd6 21. Qc8+ Qd8 22. Qxd8+ Kxd8
23. Rxd6+ (23. exd6) 23... Kc8 $11) 19... gxf5 20. exf5 Qa3+ 21. Kd2 Bxa2 22.
Qh4 Qxd6+ 23. Ke1 Be7 24. Qa4+ Qc6 25. Qxa2 $18) 17. Bd3 {Some correspondence
games suggest this is winning for White.} h4 (17... gxf5 $18 18. exf5 Bc4 19.
fxe5 Bxd3 20. Rxd3 dxe5 21. Nd5 Qc6 22. Qh4 f6 23. Nxf6+) 18. fxe5 dxe5 19. Bg5
$18 gxf5 20. exf5) 16. exf5 {White has a slight edge here.}) 14... gxf5 15. Qe2
Be6 (15... Qa5+ 16. b4 $18) 16. Bb6 Qh4 (16... Qc8 17. Nc7+ Ke7 18. exf5 Bxf5
19. O-O-O Rb8 20. Nd5+ Ke8 21. Bc7 $18) 17. Nc7+ {And White has a tremendous
edge.} 0-1

Unfortunately, the translation from chessbase to here makes it a mess to read. Is there an easy way to send a chessbase file here that makes it readable?
  
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Stigma
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #56 - 03/11/11 at 11:54:05
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On 5...e6 6.Be3 a6 7.Bc4!? I am tempted to go 7...Nc6 and 8...Qc7, an anti-Velimirovic move order that was recommended way back in Yrjölä's "Easy Guide to the Classical Sicilian". But looking at tournament practice I've been a bit worried about the good old "Fischer plan" with Bb3, 0-0 and f4; how much of a handicap is it to be committed to ...Qc7 against that?

Anyway for a Sozin fan as White 5...e6 6.Be3 a6 7.Bc4 would be a moral victory. A good reason to avoid the whole thing and make 6.Be3 Be7 7.g4 work for Black instead!
  

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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #55 - 03/11/11 at 10:38:04
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Well I do think the English attack with Nc6 could be relatively critical (along with the Keres etc) for the independent utility of the Scheveningen. Perhaps especially so for the e6/Nc6 move order Wink

Its seemingly either the Nc6/a6 stuff or making 9..d5 work, so if 10 Be2 is a problem there its not great news.

Of course its hardly like the English attack lines with an early a6 are easy either, so an edge would be acceptable, so long as its relatively containable.

Not convinced that 6 Be3 Be7 7 g4 h6 etc can really be so bad. Isn't there'a big Keres main line with 6 ..h6, 7.. Be7 and a quickish d5? Ever present danger of ending up in a rubbish English attack of course. Thats always a real danger.

I'd been under the impression that 6 Be3 a6 7 Be2 mostly transposed back into the main line 6 Be2 a6 etc stuff? Certainly quite a few strong players seem to play 6 Be3 e6 7 Be2 in the Nardojf and it'd be nice to avoid it.
  
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #54 - 03/11/11 at 10:37:00
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 05:07:37:
I also don't see why you changed the a6/e6 choice to the 9th move rather than the 6th.

That's called a transposition, which Stigma and I use to make the debate a bit easier. Let me spell it for you:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 a6 and 5...a6 6.Be2 e6 7.0-0 Be7 8.f4 0-0 9.Be3 Nc6 are exactly the same.
In the first move order Black can deviate with 9...e5 and 9...Bd7, not in the second one.
That you don't see this (see the quote) indicates you don't know much about the Scheveningen.
  

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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #53 - 03/11/11 at 10:19:37
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 05:07:37:
Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable enough but I still don't see why White has more options, "complex play and winning chances" in figure (B). I also don't see why you changed the a6/e6 choice to the 9th move rather than the 6th.

Are you sure you mean "figure (B)"? Nobody here says that; the general opinion is that "figure (A)" gives more complex play and winning chances. For the reason why I advise you to consult a book or to play through a few games.

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 05:07:37:
So I still don't know why 6. Be2 is more dangerous against the Najdorf, or why it gives White more options.

Nobody said that 6.Be2 a6 gives White more options. The point is that it gives Black less options.
So (for the third time) show us the dangerous lines for White after 9...e5 and 9...Bd7, ie without ...a6.

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 05:07:37:
But I didn't say it had to be played, I never said that. I made the argument that it was only about a quarter of lines or less that a6 wasn't played by Black, so in the vast majority of cases Black will play it anyway. So I stated that going by averages you could say it was worth 1/4 of a tempo (yes I know when it does happen it's worth a full tempo, but White should take into consideration that 3/4s of the time it won't and Black will play a6, based on his own theories and evaluation of the position).

Uhoh, now that's a logical phallacy. You said explicitly in this thread that 6.g4 is not the reason that people prefer 5...a6 and that it is not more dangerous than 6.Be2. I want you to back this up after 9...e5 and 9...Bd7.
But now you retreat.
That makes a bad impression.
"I don't understand why people do not fear 6.Be2 but do fear 6.g4 against the Najdorf, but don't get into analysis myself."
Yeah, right.
  

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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #52 - 03/11/11 at 10:19:20
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I don't want to be misunderstood! I put an exclam on 6.Be3 because this is the move that causes my repertoire the most problems. So, the reasons are  not objective. Many "pure Schev" players (like me!) don't want to play ...a6, but after 6.Be3 they are forced in my opinion and this is the point i wanted to make. I realized now that the thread is on the Keres Attack and i promise that i'll be back soon on this.

After 6.Be3 a6 7.Bc4 b5 i cannot pretend to know the nuances of this particular move order. What i can do is to study it and tell you my opinion when i'll be able to form one!
  
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #51 - 03/11/11 at 10:00:05
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/11/11 at 07:18:29:
After Black plays 6...a6 White can even play 7.Bc4!? and go for a Velimirovich attack or a Sozin which the "pure Scheveningen" players tend to avoid after 6.Bc4 by developing their b8 Knight on a6 eventually. Also a transposition to the English Attack is possible when Black can put his Knight on d7 or even White can try the "crazy" g4 again.
6.Be3 is a good move certainly, but I don't share your strong optimism about it. In particular, I can't believe that it helps this debate come down to the facts if you add a (!) to only this move. Wink

6.Be3 is probably best answered by 6...a6. Then White has 7.f3 (English Attack), or 7.g4 (Perenyi Attack). Both sharp and interesting stuff. 7.Be2 makes less sense here than one move earlier because in the line 6.Be2 a6, White usually does not commit his dark-coloured bishop to e3.

Finally (6.Be3 a6) 7.Bc4 is a move that seems to mix up different plans and White will hardly get the best of both worlds after say 7...b5 8. Bb3 Bb7 9.f3 Nbd7.
  
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #50 - 03/11/11 at 07:18:29
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I don't really understand why there is a bedate here. Be2 against the Scheveningen is a good option but in theory not the best. Various sources give different evaluations on the a6/no a6 issue though. For example in NCO Spassky's 9...e5 (when Black doesn't play ...a6) is given as "+/=" while the ...a6 lines are given as "unclear". Today the general opinion is the opposit. 9...e5 is fine and more safe while in the ...a6 lines White fights for a small edge but in a very complicated position.

My personal opinion is that Be2 is fine for Black if he plays Spassky's 9...e5. Also 6.g4 h6! 7.h4 Nc6 8.Rg1 d5 (seems safest to me) 9.exd5 (9.Bb5 is probably a bit worse than the text) is slightly better for White in theory but if Black knows what he is doing he can draw without many problems. But...

A problem i see in the "pure Scheveningen" move order is the move 6.Be3! After 6...Nc6 White can play an "improved English Attack" because the Knight is on c6. For example 7.f3 Be7 8.Qd2 O-O 9.O-O-O when 9...a6 transposes to a line given as dangerous for Black by Kasparov and the recent Yakovich's book (althought it was proposed in Emms' book) and the "old" 9...d5 is met by the "new" 10.Be2! which is analyzed to a White's advantage by Pavlovic in Cutting Edge 2.

So, Black can play 6...Be7 but now 7.g4! is a strong variation for White. After 7...h6 8.Qe2!? is a move which Markovic failed to equalise against in a recent corr game of his.

After Black plays 6...a6 White can even play 7.Bc4!? and go for a Velimirovich attack or a Sozin which the "pure Scheveningen" players tend to avoid after 6.Bc4 by developing their b8 Knight on a6 eventually. Also a transposition to the English Attack is possible when Black can put his Knight on d7 or even White can try the "crazy" g4 again.

So, yes 6.g4 is critical but defendable, 6.Be2 is rich in possibilities but in theory not so dangerous, 6.Bc4 is not of a concern but 6.Be3! poses some problems for Black as i see it.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #49 - 03/11/11 at 05:07:37
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Stigma wrote on 03/11/11 at 00:50:46:
@Uhohspaghettio: You don't understand the argument because it has more to do with time than with "where a piece is going to, or what moves are possible".

Quote:
If Black doesn't spend a move on ...a6 he has an extra move for defence or for countering in the centre with ...d5 or ...e5. For example the 9...e5 line that MartinC has pointed out several times.


Even more importantly, it's an argument about flexibility:

Position A) After 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 a6

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Position B) After 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 e5

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Both positions are currently theoretically acceptable as far as I know, and score well for Black on high levels. But in B) [MartinC's and Kasparov's line] it's harder for White to get complex play and winning chances. If Black has played 5...e6 he can still choose between these two lines (and others), while with 5...a6 6.Be2 e6 he is more or less committed to A) (it's possible to play an early ...Qc7 instead, but last time I looked that gave White some dangerous early g2-g4 options).

I've never said 6.Be2 was a bad move against 5...e6, only that it can't be the reason a Scheveningen player starts with 5...a6. That reason remains 6.g4 (or possibly the chance to vary with 5...a6 6.Be3 e5, 5...a6 6.Be3 Ng4 or 5...a6 6.Be2 e5). If 6.g4 is found to be not that dangerous for Black, the result will be a huge boost to the 5...e6 Scheveningen's popularity. Maybe that's about to happen, I wouldn't know.


Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable enough but I still don't see why White has more options, "complex play and winning chances" in figure (B). I also don't see why you changed the a6/e6 choice to the 9th move rather than the 6th.

So I still don't know why 6. Be2 is more dangerous against the Najdorf, or why it gives White more options.   

MNb wrote on 03/11/11 at 03:05:42:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/10/11 at 21:56:08:
Uhohspaghettio, try this:

Don't respond for a week or so. Then come back and re-read all the comments. I think you'll find that Stigma, MartinC, MNb, and chk are all making logical sense. It's you who seems to be obstinately clinging to an untenable position.


I quit. I have asked Spaghettio for concrete analysis and I will only respond again if he provides it.
I am not interested anymore in psychological and philosophical arguments. In the end its the moves which count and as long as he doesn't provide them he is as much baking air as we all do in this thread.

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/10/11 at 22:45:00:
I invited him to explain clearly why the Be2 is more dangerous when a6 isn't played.

Prove it. Moves. Lines. Variations. Analysis.
I'll give you a start: 5...e6 6.Be2 a6 is as dangerous for Black as 5...a6 6.Be2 e6. So let's get more precise:
show us the dangers for Black after 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Be3 Nc6 9.f4 e5 and 9...Bd7 and convince everybody that 9...a6 has to be played.
Make lots of people happy.


But I didn't say it had to be played, I never said that. I made the argument that it was only about a quarter of lines or less that a6 wasn't played by Black, so in the vast majority of cases Black will play it anyway. So I stated that going by averages you could say it was worth 1/4 of a tempo (yes I know when it does happen it's worth a full tempo, but White should take into consideration that 3/4s of the time it won't and Black will play a6, based on his own theories and evaluation of the position).  

It's fine, I just asked questions and questioned statements made by others that appeared to me at the time to go against what some GMs do. That's why I wasn't getting into analysis much myself.  
« Last Edit: 03/11/11 at 06:20:35 by Uhohspaghettio »  

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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #48 - 03/11/11 at 03:05:42
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/10/11 at 21:56:08:
Uhohspaghettio, try this:

Don't respond for a week or so. Then come back and re-read all the comments. I think you'll find that Stigma, MartinC, MNb, and chk are all making logical sense. It's you who seems to be obstinately clinging to an untenable position.


I quit. I have asked Spaghettio for concrete analysis and I will only respond again if he provides it.
I am not interested anymore in psychological and philosophical arguments. In the end its the moves which count and as long as he doesn't provide them he is as much baking air as we all do in this thread.

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/10/11 at 22:45:00:
I invited him to explain clearly why the Be2 is more dangerous when a6 isn't played.

Prove it. Moves. Lines. Variations. Analysis.
I'll give you a start: 5...e6 6.Be2 a6 is as dangerous for Black as 5...a6 6.Be2 e6. So let's get more precise:
show us the dangers for Black after 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Be3 Nc6 9.f4 e5 and 9...Bd7 and convince everybody that 9...a6 has to be played.
Make lots of people happy.
  

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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #47 - 03/11/11 at 00:50:46
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@Uhohspaghettio: You don't understand the argument because it has more to do with time than with "where a piece is going to, or what moves are possible".

Quote:
If Black doesn't spend a move on ...a6 he has an extra move for defence or for countering in the centre with ...d5 or ...e5. For example the 9...e5 line that MartinC has pointed out several times.


Even more importantly, it's an argument about flexibility:

Position A) After 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 a6

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Position B) After 5...e6 6.Be2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.Be3 e5

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Both positions are currently theoretically acceptable as far as I know, and score well for Black on high levels. But in B) [MartinC's and Kasparov's line] it's harder for White to get complex play and winning chances. If Black has played 5...e6 he can still choose between these two lines (and others), while with 5...a6 6.Be2 e6 he is more or less committed to A) (it's possible to play an early ...Qc7 instead, but last time I looked that gave White some dangerous early g2-g4 options).

I've never said 6.Be2 was a bad move against 5...e6, only that it can't be the reason a Scheveningen player starts with 5...a6. That reason remains 6.g4 (or possibly the chance to vary with 5...a6 6.Be3 e5, 5...a6 6.Be3 Ng4 or 5...a6 6.Be2 e5). If 6.g4 is found to be not that dangerous for Black, the result will be a huge boost to the 5...e6 Scheveningen's popularity. Maybe that's about to happen, I wouldn't know.
  

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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #46 - 03/10/11 at 22:45:00
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/10/11 at 21:56:08:
Uhohspaghettio, try this:

Don't respond for a week or so. Then come back and re-read all the comments. I think you'll find that Stigma, MartinC, MNb, and chk are all making logical sense. It's you who seems to be obstinately clinging to an untenable position.


Oh that's the way it is is it? I defended the Scheveningen against multiple people, people saying Be2 was "objectively inferior", and made a few points and now you decide you will gang everyone up on me?

I was just discussing the subject with those people, just like with you. We had some differences of opinion, such as some of them heavily implying Super GMs were making bad moves. Now you decide to pull all those names out of the hat and attack me in an ad hominem way, when in fact we were just discussing this and most of us ended up agreeing or coming to an understanding. 

Stigma is unable to come up with a good, clear argument as to why Be2 is more dangerous when a6 hasn't yet been played. This is not about playing e6 as an alternative and close to castling, he specifically stated that a6 makes Be2 more dangerous and yet was completely unable to back up his statement as to why it would be. 
 
What Stigmata gave as an "argument" is no argument at all. What he's saying is a rubbish fuzzy logic that doesn't make sense at all. The knight can still go on b5 while the bishop is on e2 or without the bishop on e2.

I invited him to explain clearly why the Be2 is more dangerous when a6 isn't played. He failed to. When a GM or chess author explains why a certain move is played or more dangerous, he talks about where a piece is going to, or what moves are possible, or something like that. He doesn't say extremely vague things like "that other side of the board, hurr, nothing to do with it, clearly obviously logic lol".

I'm sorry if it's the norm around here to allow people to get away with fuzzy statements and pretend they're right, it's in my nature and profession to be a lot more rigorous than that. If someone says something it has to be meaningful and it has to have at least some logic behind it.   
  

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Re: The best way to meet the Keres attack?
Reply #45 - 03/10/11 at 21:56:08
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Uhohspaghettio, try this:

Don't respond for a week or so. Then come back and re-read all the comments. I think you'll find that Stigma, MartinC, MNb, and chk are all making logical sense. It's you who seems to be obstinately clinging to an untenable position.
  
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