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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00: 1 e4 e6 2 c4 (Read 13970 times)
Keano
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #32 - 01/21/11 at 09:43:13
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TN wrote on 01/21/11 at 01:18:05:
Better still, after 1.e4 e6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 c5, Black has set a positional trap. If White plays 4.Nc3, then Black loses another tempo with 4...e5! and the extra move Nf3 has hurt White as he cannot play f4. Black will play ...f5, ...Nf6 and ...Be7, with the easier game.


You're almost in danger of becoming sensible now  Wink
If you want that line, which is almost the same as Rogozenkos anti anti-Sicilian book line you need to go 2...c5 first and substitute ...Nc6 for ....d6 ends up the same position.
  
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #31 - 01/21/11 at 01:18:05
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Better still, after 1.e4 e6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 c5, Black has set a positional trap. If White plays 4.Nc3, then Black loses another tempo with 4...e5! and the extra move Nf3 has hurt White as he cannot play f4. Black will play ...f5, ...Nf6 and ...Be7, with the easier game.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #30 - 01/20/11 at 16:24:00
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TN wrote on 01/20/11 at 13:51:42:
Of course, 1.e4 e6 2.c4 should be met with 2...d6, meeting 3.d4 with 3...d5.

After 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3, Black plays 3...c5, reaching a Sicilian.


Grin
  

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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #29 - 01/20/11 at 14:06:17
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TN wrote on 01/20/11 at 13:51:42:
Of course, 1.e4 e6 2.c4 should be met with 2...d6, meeting 3.d4 with 3...d5.

After 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3, Black plays 3...c5, reaching a Sicilian.

Smiley Smiley
  
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #28 - 01/20/11 at 13:51:42
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Of course, 1.e4 e6 2.c4 should be met with 2...d6, meeting 3.d4 with 3...d5.

After 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3, Black plays 3...c5, reaching a Sicilian.
  

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Keano
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #27 - 01/20/11 at 11:58:43
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Quite right. No need to give away everything or nobody will buy the books. I prefer 10...Ne5 keeping an eye on the c4 pawn by the way. Its fascinating that Black might be OK in this line given that its basically a tempo down on the line of the great Nimzowitsch.

Regarding the French its clear after 2.c4 that 2...d5(!) is the absolute best move, but there might be some practical reasons for giving 2...e5 a whirl. One also gets the added bonus of seeing the look on your opponents face!
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #26 - 01/20/11 at 11:43:17
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Keano wrote on 01/20/11 at 11:18:04:
BPaulsen wrote on 01/20/11 at 11:02:28:
Keano wrote on 01/20/11 at 09:34:00:
Would've thought an early d4 was the best try to use the tempo alright. How on earth did Tony end up transposing to this  - Black going ...Be7 and later  ...Bb4?


The bolded. You got it.


Amazing!

Tony improves with 13.Nb5 on Navara-Istratescu 2004? Will have to check that book, first off I cant see the problem for Black after 13...b6 and continuing as in the game.

I have to admit that as Black in general I'd be more worried by the line with 7.Nxc6 than with 7.f3


Yes, with 13. Nb5.

He does mention 13...b6 (gives it a "?!"), but I don't want to give away more than I already have. You'll see when you get the book.
  

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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #25 - 01/20/11 at 11:18:04
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BPaulsen wrote on 01/20/11 at 11:02:28:
Keano wrote on 01/20/11 at 09:34:00:
Would've thought an early d4 was the best try to use the tempo alright. How on earth did Tony end up transposing to this  - Black going ...Be7 and later  ...Bb4?


The bolded. You got it.


Amazing!

Tony improves with 13.Nb5 on Navara-Istratescu 2004? Will have to check that book, first off I cant see the problem for Black after 13...b6 and continuing as in the game.

I have to admit that as Black in general I'd be more worried by the line with 7.Nxc6 than with 7.f3
  
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #24 - 01/20/11 at 11:07:35
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TN wrote on 01/20/11 at 11:04:17:
I'm thinking of playing 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d6 as Black. After 3.c4 I play 3...d5!, with the following branches:

4.e5 is an improved French, QGA or Caro-Kann (whatever opening you are more familiar with) after 4...dc4 5.Bc4 Nd7 6.Nc3 Nb6 7.Bb3 Ne7. I can't decide whether this is like a 3.e4 Nf6 QGA or a 3.e5 Bf5 4.c4 Caro-Kann, but we'll figure out eventually.

4.ed5 ed5 is the Advance French with White committed to c4. This means that White has to accept an IQP position, outweighing the disadvantage of being a tempo down on a known line. And even with an extra tempo White doesn't have an advantage.

4.Nc3 allows Black to play an improved Rubinstein French or Marshall Gambit, depending on which opening is in your repertoire: 4...de4 5.Ne4 Bb4 6.Bd2 Qd4 7.Bb4 Qe4 8.Be2 and Black has an improved Marshall Gambit because the pawn on c7 stops Qd6!. This means that 8...Qg2 is just good for Black.

Finally there is 4.cd5 ed5 5.e5, but 5...c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 and 7...Bg4 is fine for Black.

With this brilliant discovery now revealed to the world, I can now return to the perennial question of whether White is in zugzwang after 1.e4 e6 2.c4 e5.  Grin

If you take this at all seriously then you really should look at 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3. I'm currently analysing 3.Nc3 e5 4.de5 de5 5.Qd8 Kd8 and have concluded that the misplaced knight on c3 gives Black a small edge.


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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #23 - 01/20/11 at 11:04:17
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I'm thinking of playing 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d6 as Black. After 3.c4 I play 3...d5!, with the following branches:

4.e5 is an improved French, QGA or Caro-Kann (whatever opening you are more familiar with) after 4...dc4 5.Bc4 Nd7 6.Nc3 Nb6 7.Bb3 Ne7. I can't decide whether this is like a 3.e4 Nf6 QGA or a 3.e5 Bf5 4.c4 Caro-Kann, but we'll figure out eventually.

4.ed5 ed5 is the Advance French with White committed to c4. This means that White has to accept an IQP position, outweighing the disadvantage of being a tempo down on a known line. And even with an extra tempo White doesn't have an advantage.

4.Nc3 allows Black to play an improved Rubinstein French or Marshall Gambit, depending on which opening is in your repertoire: 4...de4 5.Ne4 Bb4 6.Bd2 Qd4 7.Bb4 Qe4 8.Be2 and Black has an improved Marshall Gambit because the pawn on c7 stops Qd6!. This means that 8...Qg2 is just good for Black.

Finally there is 4.cd5 ed5 5.e5, but 5...c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 and 7...Bg4 is fine for Black.

With this brilliant discovery now revealed to the world, I can now return to the perennial question of whether White is in zugzwang after 1.e4 e6 2.c4 e5.  Grin

If you take this at all seriously then you really should look at 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3. I'm currently analysing 3.Nc3 e5 4.de5 de5 5.Qd8 Kd8 and have concluded that the misplaced knight on c3 gives Black a small edge.
  

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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #22 - 01/20/11 at 11:02:28
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Keano wrote on 01/20/11 at 09:34:00:
Would've thought an early d4 was the best try to use the tempo alright. How on earth did Tony end up transposing to this  - Black going ...Be7 and later  ...Bb4?


The bolded. You got it.
  

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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #21 - 01/20/11 at 09:34:00
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Would've thought an early d4 was the best try to use the tempo alright. How on earth did Tony end up transposing to this  - Black going ...Be7 and later  ...Bb4?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #20 - 01/20/11 at 03:19:19
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Keano wrote on 01/19/11 at 15:30:04:
I am mystified by references to an English opening a tempo down - that is not whats happening at all -  in the English the pawn is on e2, here it is committed to e4, its a completely separate position in its own right, nothing at all to do with the English opening (except for the obvious transposition I gave above).


Nimzowitsch English. Old as hell, been around since the 1920s. Equal if black knows what he's doing, and does require precision. If black isn't precise even with the extra tempo he's worse.

Kosten gave it the most up-to-date treatment in the earlier mentioned book (Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings), and as you found out after you made this post - yes, he recommended it.

By the way, he covers the exact same game you cited earlier (via the 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e4 Be7 5. d4 move order) and says "white has a definite advantage" after 13. Nb5! and ensuing analysis. He also notes white is a couple tempi up on a line that can be reached from the 4. d4 variation of the English (after 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4).

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About the only thing I can agree with you on is that 3...e5 against the Flohr-Mikenas transposes as in the Navara-Istratescu game. It might be a slightly off-beat move but to claim it is "obviously dubious" is absurd.


It's a theoretically dubious line, there's an obvious reason 3...e5 has never been the main line in the Flohr-Mikenas, and that's even what was used in the game you cite.

Given black struggles to equalize in what are the actual main lines of the Flohr-Mikenas as it is, if 3...e5 was anything special it'd have replaced the other two (3...c5, 3...d5) a long, long time ago.

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Heres a recent 2010 game from Wijk an Zee between 2 2650+ Grandmasters to re-inforce the point, but no doubt you'll claim these GMs can get away with any nonsense and you know best:


A one-off game between GMs doesn't mean the idea is particularly good. You can find GMs, including strong ones, using what is ultimately junk from time-to-time to head for theoretical back waters.

Practical worth != Theoretical worth

That aside, in the 2010 game you cite 5. d4 favors white, heading into Kosten's analysis.
  

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Keano
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #19 - 01/19/11 at 17:15:00
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OK. At least we all now know that its a transposition to "that line" a tempo down. Unless White is in zugzwang  Wink it depends on the assesment of that line, it surprises me that some GMs have decided to enter it a tempo down.
  
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Re: 1 e4 e6 2 c4
Reply #18 - 01/19/11 at 16:55:25
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Keano wrote on 01/19/11 at 16:13:21:
Let me get this straight, a move is played by top GM's but BPaulsen calls it "obviously dubious" so you'd rather go with that? Its about as clear an example of a sweeping statement that I can think of.

Having said that, I'm not going to play it  Undecided


BPaulsen has strong opinions allright. What I meant was he very likely knows more about this English line than I do (or than you do it seems). So even if he's wrong, his opinion is more relevant than mine!
  

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