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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide (Read 22123 times)
Monocle
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #22 - 05/12/18 at 21:52:20
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Well, I've done half of it.  I figure I might as well finish the whole thing.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #21 - 05/12/18 at 20:44:16
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Monocle wrote on 05/12/18 at 19:37:24:
ErictheRed wrote on 05/12/18 at 18:56:17:
The point is to find where you need to improve, which I think the book does an excellent job with, not worry about how many points you think that you deserve in a particular exercise. 


I'm not really convinced it does do a great job of that.  Almost every position seems to boil down to a tactical shot, so I'm not sure where it's evaluating any other part of one's play.  OK, there are a fair number of endgames as well, but any time it looks like you're being asked for a strategic assessment based on positional considerations, there's always a tactic that basically constitutes the entire evaluation.


How far into the book are you, out of curiosity?  You might reserve your criticism until after you've finished it. From memory I do agree that it's pretty heavy on the calculation/tactical side of things, but otherwise I have no criticisms of the book and I do think that it evaluated my play perfectly (I've posted about it here in the past, including a breakdown of all of my strengths and weaknesses). 

The training plan that I put together for myself after working through it took me from ~2000 to 2200 USCF, and I had not improved for a few years.  YMMV and perhaps it was more the overall effort and fact that I put together SOME kind of training program to follow, but I still think very highly of the positions chosen to analyze in the book.  At the very least, it's good training to simply go through them all as a calculation/puzzle book.   
  
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Monocle
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #20 - 05/12/18 at 19:37:24
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/12/18 at 18:56:17:
The point is to find where you need to improve, which I think the book does an excellent job with, not worry about how many points you think that you deserve in a particular exercise. 


I'm not really convinced it does do a great job of that.  Almost every position seems to boil down to a tactical shot, so I'm not sure where it's evaluating any other part of one's play.  OK, there are a fair number of endgames as well, but any time it looks like you're being asked for a strategic assessment based on positional considerations, there's always a tactic that basically constitutes the entire evaluation.
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #19 - 05/12/18 at 18:56:17
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I share some of the same irritants regarding scoring for the book.  However, when I read it and followed the scoring guidelines, I really believe that it diagnosed my play perfectly.  So while I might complain about a particular position, I think that's missing the point. 

You need to look at the book as a whole, and realize that the scoring has been normalized with a fair amount of actual data from people who took the test.  As far as I'm aware, it's the only "test your chess" type of book that's done that.  Other similar books, such as Rate Your Endgame or one by a Spanish GM whose name escapes me, are pretty much just complete shots in the dark regarding how many points to award yourself.  And who cares, in the long run?  The point is to find where you need to improve, which I think the book does an excellent job with, not worry about how many points you think that you deserve in a particular exercise. 
  
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Monocle
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #18 - 05/12/18 at 18:13:41
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Well, if you selected "White wins" and you didn't miss ...Qc5+ and ...Qf8, then you get 5 points, even if your line doesn't work, because there's no mention of Ne4.

That's not the only problem I have with this book.  Frequently, you're asked to evaluate a position with, say, white to move, and you get some options like:

A: White is winning
B: White is better
C: Black is better
D: Black is winning

It looks like you're being asked for a positional evaluation, but you're not.  The evaluation of the position invariably hinges on some tactical trick that secures a winning advantage for the side to move, so the answer is ALWAYS "White is winning". 

  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #17 - 05/12/18 at 17:36:48
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@Monocle: Excellent criticism.

I saw ...Qc5+ ...Qf8, missed Rd4, and thought that 1...Nxb4 2.Ne4 would mate, overlooking Stockfish's defense 2...Rxd1 3.Rxd1 Qc8!, although white still gets a plus, according to the computer, with 4.h3 Nc6 5.Rd7.

How many points should I get?
  
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Monocle
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #16 - 05/12/18 at 15:53:17
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IsaVulpes wrote on 05/12/18 at 15:41:39:
The idea is presumably that the person who plays Qh6 in a live game, missing ..Qc5+ entirely, has another shot at seeing ..Rd4 then and playing it; winning the game.


I doubt that's what the book is really going for.  It's supposed to measure your chess strengths and weaknesses, not how lucky you are that there happens to be a win in a line that you miscalculated.

IsaVulpes wrote on 05/12/18 at 15:41:39:
"Undeserved wins" of this nature are very much a real thing that influences your Elo as well.


Not really, since they should be balanced out by undeserved losses in the long run.

IsaVulpes wrote on 05/12/18 at 15:41:39:
You could also make a point for the intuition of "White must be winning" being correct, even if you fail to see the concrete reason as to why.


I don't agree.  There's nothing about that position that suggests that white is winning unless you find the actual tactic.  Without it, white is just a pawn down.


  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #15 - 05/12/18 at 15:41:39
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The idea is presumably that the person who plays Qh6 in a live game, missing ..Qc5+ entirely, has another shot at seeing ..Rd4 then and playing it; winning the game.

IE in an actual game the same applies, that missing the apparent refutation (which actually doesn't work) to an idea entirely, can be superior to seeing half of it. "Undeserved wins" of this nature are very much a real thing that influences your Elo as well.
You could also make a point for the intuition of "White must be winning" being correct, even if you fail to see the concrete reason as to why.

There are sufficiently many puzzles in this book that someone who actually is notably worse at calculation than you are will end up scoring much lower, even if he gets 2 instead of 0 points now and then.
  
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Monocle
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #14 - 05/12/18 at 15:24:59
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This book irritated me due to how the points are distributed for answers.  For instance, question 33:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

33-I: After 1...Nxb4

A: White wins
B: White gets good compensation
C: White gets no compensation
D: Black wins

White wins.  However, you need to see that 1... Nxb4 2.Qh6 only works because of 2... Qc5+ 3.Rd4!! Qf8 4.Qxf8+ and 5.Rxb4.

When it comes to distributing the points, it gives:

A: 5
B: 0
C: 0
D -1

Then, in the explanation, it says:

"If you thought that White wins instantly after 2.Qh6 then you missed Black's defensive idea - 2...Qc5+ and 3... Qf8 defending the square g7 just in time.  If that is the case, you only deserve 2 points instead of 5."

So, people who completely missed 2...Qc5+ and 3...Qf8 deserve more points than people who saw that but missed the much less obvious 3.Rd4!!  Giving 2 points here is essentially rewarding people for missing the entire point of the position. 

There are many questions like this, where the evaluation hinges on seeing some tactical resource several moves deep into a calculation, and points are awarded to those who guessed the right answer while missing the actual point.

I think the book would be worth a lot more if it was stricter in penalising people for missing stuff like this. 
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #13 - 02/13/11 at 10:02:50
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Your poor calculation point is according to my own conclusions. Disorganized thinking is partly right.

I give an example as feedback to your thoughts about both points in the hope of stimulating further thoughts.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

This is a position with black to move of my last otb game last week. The position was new to me in a tournament game and I couldn't remember any examples about it.

First point is time control: 75 min./ + 30sec. per move for the first 40 moves. It's move #8 and the opponent had used 20 min. My clock showed 5 minutes less. Playing rarely otb-tournaments it is important to use the time in a way to avoid "Zeitnot" and on the other hand use it completely.

So was the first decision to spend up to ten minutes here. (8 min. were needed.)

Next I had in mind my intention to castle short in the background. The bishop must move. So the first candidate moves were BxN, Bh5, Bf5.

1. - BxN 2.BxB 0-0 3.d3 and I didn't like whites bishop pair and the plans with e4 or b4-b5. So BxN was rejected within a minute.

Now comes the disorganized part. 1... Bf5 somewhen Nh4 by white winning a tempo and I found neither a good home for the Bf5 on g6, e6 or d7 nor did I like whites possibility to attack with f4.

1... Bh5 didn't please me either because of white's later g4, Nh4 or Ne5 and f4 with attack against the king without seeing a plan for black.

This went five minutes. I cannot give an ordered report about my jumping from motives (f4 - Nh4 - Ne5 - Nh2 - g4) for white and short concrete move sequences. The result was a further candidate move - Nc8. In some lines the moves Qb3 and Rae1 had appeared and I thought about Bc8 covering the Pb7 - leaving the e-file open for later Ne4 and Re8 and covering f5 in case of Nh4 against the Knight.

Bc8 was played. (Btw did this move not occur in my CA 10 database and got a bad evaluation - .68 by Rybka 3 in the first moment, but lead to a 0.0 after a prolongation of the lines at about move 15. I think the move is not that bad compared to the other moves giving a -.22 till -.29.)

Personally I register: A lack of concrete thinking and a lack of preparation when confronted with a flank opening.
  

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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #12 - 02/13/11 at 00:13:14
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I can't help noticing that your profile is somewhat similar to my own. I looked for the common factor in all my weak areas (counter-attack, sacrifice, calculation, threat identification, etc.) and concluded it was poor calculation and generally disorganized thinking. Tactical pattern recognition on the other hand is one of my strengths, which complicates the picture - I can "calculate" very well when I recognize a known pattern.

But maybe I'm just projecting my own experience here. The other useful thing I did was to carefully write down my thought process for all problems, and especially those I got wrong, looking for patterns. That gave me an even more individualized kind of feedback compared to Khmelnitsky's statistical models.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #11 - 02/12/11 at 22:57:35
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Here are my fresh results in this book given as an extrapolated rating estimation according to the tables in the book:

Overall - 1930 (maybe correct - only played two tournaments in the last two years with an rating of DWZ ~1880 and ~1850; normally Elo is a little higher than DWZ)
Attack - 1987
Counterattack - 1440 (shocking, but not totally surprising)
Defense - 1968
Opening - 2177 (hey - only once worked really on a opening for two month; but there are only 6 tasks in the test; so I don't overrate it)
Middlegame - 1826
Endgame - 2000
Tactics - 1700 (disappointing, but possible)
Strategy - 2076
Calculation - 1777 (this is a known weakness)
Standard Positions - 2283 (thirteen tasks; I feel overrated)
Recognizing Threads - 1810
Sacrifice - 1802

General comment: The absolute value of some estimations did surprise me, but never the sign in relation to the average/overall rating. I feel this test does fit to my strengths and weaknesses in chess. The big exception is openings. Relying mostly on principles and using a database in correspondence chess this should be at least 200 points over my real level.

This will have consequences to my training plans this year. The weakest point is counterattack and the 1st step is to reread carefully Khmelnitzki's training tips and recommendations.

At the same time I'd like to ask for the thoughts of the readers of this topic: What would you do with such a test profile?

The 2nd step will be forming a concrete plan and giving it in here for comments.
  

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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #10 - 01/26/11 at 14:48:46
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In general, one doesn't need to read that many chess books to get a good education. Read a few, and read them carefully. Follow the advice of the author(s). Never do too many puzzles at a time.

There was another thread about the Yusupov series where someone complained that it took to long to follow the studying advice of the author. What's the rush?

I took the tests of the first Khmelnitsky book some time ago. In the positions I gave the wrong answer, I often gave my answer too quickly, not using up the 20 mins at all. (Of course there were also some positions where I used the 20 mins and still wasn't sure.)

The Bobby Fischer book has been mentioned. There is also another one about tactics.
  

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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #9 - 01/26/11 at 13:35:50
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@Stigma,

What's the ideal schedule for spending time solving these puzzles?

I have about 2 hours of free time in weekdays, and 8 hours of free time in the weekends. Since I didn't know anything about the book perhaps your advice could be reliable and helpful.

Thanks!
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #8 - 01/25/11 at 23:52:19
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Viking wrote on 01/25/11 at 21:52:22:
In the book each task has typically two questions:
1. Evaluate the position
2. Find best move

I found it a bit disturbing having various moves listed as part of the second question when I should be answering the first. Several times I struggled to evaluate correctly but when looking at the moves I easily spotted the critical move that changed the evaluation.

Did u hide the second question when actually looking at the first? Or is it "allowed" to look at those moves and use that as part of the assessment.

I think not - but am not sure what the author expected from the "student"...

I never thought of this as a problem and happily considered the two questions together. But in most of the positions there were really no other serious candidate moves - the ones presented are always the "correct" choice and the most common mistakes on various levels. Sometimes it even seemed Khmelnitsky searched desperately for a fourth option to include after listing the only three reasonable ones.

I'm also interested in the Fischer book, but one thing worries me: Fischer has less than 1000 known tournament games to his name, and many of them have been published over and over in anthologies, games collections, tactics books, strategy primers, etc.. So wouldn't such a book necessarily contain too many well-known positions to be useful as a testing tool? It would certainly have the somewhat absurd result that a devoted Fischer fan would score much better than a Kasparov fan, Anand fan or whatever of equal strength, simply by recognizing more of the positions...

Or maybe Khelmnitsky has seen this problem too and gone out of his way to find less well-known Fischer positions?  Smiley
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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