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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Perenyi attack (Read 7086 times)
OrangeCounty
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was a good move!

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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #15 - 06/29/11 at 17:56:45
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I vaguely remember thinking this line was passe for White because of analysis done on a game of Polgar's, maybe also in 2005 in San Luis, where she gained the advantage because her opponent continued ...Bg7... Polgar-Kasimzhanov, that's it, rather than the 14...Bc5 of Kund-Thomson.  The expert analysis (and my own!) at the time concluded that Black was = after ...Bc5.

So maybe White needs to avoid 13 Bxd4, but it is hard to imagine what advantage this could confer unless there is something White can do on the 13th move he can't do after Bxd4 exd4.
  
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MNb
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #14 - 04/07/11 at 10:44:56
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No trouble at all.

Kund,W (2488) - Thomsen,K (2466) [B81]
WS/GMN/001 ICCF, 30.06.2005

1.Nf3 c5 2.e4 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.g4 e5 8.Nf5 g6 9.g5 gxf5 10.exf5 d5 11.Qf3 d4 12.0-0-0 Nbd7 13.Bxd4 exd4 14.Rxd4 Bc5 15.Rd1 Qc7 16.gxf6 Nxf6 17.Bc4 0-0 18.Nd5 Nxd5 19.Rxd5 Kh8 20.f6 Rg8 21.Bd3 Bg4 22.Qe4 Rg6 23.h4 Rag8 24.Rg5 Bd7 25.h5 Re8 26.hxg6 Rxe4 27.Rgh5 Qf4+ 28.Kb1 Kg8 29.Rxh7 Qxf6 30.Bxe4 Qd4 31.gxf7+ Kf8 32.Rg1 Ke7 33.Bd3 Be6 34.Re1 Qd5 35.b3 b5 36.f4 Bb4 37.Re4 Bc3 38.Rh6 Kxf7 39.Rhxe6 Qxe6 40.Rxe6 Kxe6 41.a3 a5 42.Bxb5 Kf5 43.Ka2 Be1 44.Kb2 Kxf4 45.c3 Ke5 46.b4 axb4 47.axb4 Kd6 48.Kb3 Bh4 49.Ka4 Bf6 50.c4 Ke5 51.c5 Kd4 52.Be2 Kc3 53.Kb5 Be5 54.c6 Bd6 ½-½

PS: I think your criticism on Pavlovic is justified; I disagree(d) with your assessment of specific lines and hence with your conclusions. If I'm right and 13...dxe3 14.Bxf7+ is the way to go Pavlovic at least should have included a short remark.
  

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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #13 - 04/07/11 at 07:43:22
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@MNb and others who have gone to trouble of posting analysis on this line: I don't claim that my analysis was by any means perfect. But Pavlovic makes categorical claims about the whole line while ignoring critical and/or natural moves. It may be that his assessment is correct in the end but what he presents as analysis has definitely some major non-trivial gaps.

After 13. Bxd4 exd4 14. Rxd4 Bc5 15. Rd1 Qc7 16. gxf6 Nxf6 17. Bc4 O-O 18. Nd5 Nxd5 19. Rxd5 Kh8 20. f6 Rg8 21. Bd3 Bd6 22. Rd4 the machine is suggesting 22. ... Bf8 with 0.00 @ depth 27. I have not looked at this closely but the machine is very happy to defend h7 with a timely ... Rg6.

@MNb: If it is not too much trouble can you post the full score of the Kund-Thomsen game?
  
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MNb
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #12 - 04/01/11 at 21:43:01
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I had seen 14...Qb6 15.Na4 (also 15.Rhe1+ Kd8 16.Na4) and rejected it because of 15...Qc6 forcing the exchange of Queens.
  

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mefisto6
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #11 - 04/01/11 at 18:44:20
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you might be correct, although white can continue the attack with 20. Be6.
I now can use computer assistance and there is a better line:
14 .. Qb6 15. Na4 (a typical computer move) Qb4 16. Rxd4 Kd8 17.Nc3 Bc5 18. a3 Qa5 19. Rd3 and even Fritz likes the white position after a while, e.g. ..Ne8 20. Rhe1 Nd6 21. Rxd6 Bxd6 22. Rxd6 Qe5 23. Rd1 Rf8 24. Nd5 Rb8 25. Nb6 Ke7 26. Qd3 +-. Black's play can possibly by improved (Ne8, Rf8, Rb8), but it is an indication that it isn't easy for black.
  
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MNb
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #10 - 04/01/11 at 17:46:52
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mefisto6 wrote on 04/01/11 at 11:35:36:
I did this analysis blind, so don't shoot me if I missed something.

Which is quite risky in a line like this.
17...Qd6 18.Qxf7 Qf4+ 19.Kb1 Kc7 and I don't see White's attack (which doesn't say much, I admit).
  

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mefisto6
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #9 - 04/01/11 at 11:35:36
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F22 wrote on 03/31/11 at 20:39:00:
mefisto6 wrote on 03/31/11 at 11:44:55:
Rhe1 looks very strong in both cases.
e.g. 14. ... Qb6 15. Rhe1 Be7 16. Qe2 Qd6 17. Rxd4
You shouldn't try to memorize too many variations. It is enough to know the attacking schemes. It is a positional piece sacrifice. Black and white have many ways of deviating from the 'theory'. White has the best practical chances in my opinion.
Anyway, chances are low that you will ever be able to play this variation. None of my opponents has ever played 7. .. e5 8. Nf5 g6.


Sorry but this sounds ridiculous to me. Just knowing the attacking schemes is certainly not enough to play this line as White there are a great deal of irrational complexities.

Also the line you give does not really hold up: 13. Bxd4 exd4 14. Bc4 Qb6 15. Rhe1 Kd8! and I think Black is much better.


This is not ridiculous. If you are feeling uncomfortable playing a position one or two pieces down for some long term compensation, then you should not play this variation. I doubt that you will find a forced win for white (or a forced draw for black).
After 15. ... Kd8, white has a number of interesting continuations (Nd5, Ne4, Bxf7, ef,..).
At first sight. I would go for 16. Nd5 Nxd5 17. Qxd5 Bc5 18. Qxf7. If black plays something like Kc7, then white can go after the h7 pawn with Qg7, after which it will be difficult for black to stop the white pawns.
I did this analysis blind, so don't shoot me if I missed something.
  
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MNb
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #8 - 04/01/11 at 02:12:43
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I haven't found any game with 13.Bc4 dxe3, so there must be a reason for this, despite Malcolm Pein and your computer. I suggest you take a serious look at 14.Bxf7+ (whoever said that originality in opening analysis is mandatory?)

The line 13.Bxd4 exd4 14.Rxd4 Bc5 15.Rd1 (15.Rd2) Qc7 16.Bc4 0-0 has been tested in Kund-Thomsen, corr ICCF 2005. Black preferred 21...Bg4, possibly because of 21...Bd6 22.Rd4, which rules out your draw and threatens an all out attack against h7.
Looks like your conclusions are a bit premature. I can think of a very simple reason to avoid 13...dxe3 and 23...Bc5 : maintaining winning chances.
  

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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #7 - 03/31/11 at 20:39:00
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mefisto6 wrote on 03/31/11 at 11:44:55:
Rhe1 looks very strong in both cases.
e.g. 14. ... Qb6 15. Rhe1 Be7 16. Qe2 Qd6 17. Rxd4
You shouldn't try to memorize too many variations. It is enough to know the attacking schemes. It is a positional piece sacrifice. Black and white have many ways of deviating from the 'theory'. White has the best practical chances in my opinion.
Anyway, chances are low that you will ever be able to play this variation. None of my opponents has ever played 7. .. e5 8. Nf5 g6.


Sorry but this sounds ridiculous to me. Just knowing the attacking schemes is certainly not enough to play this line as White there are a great deal of irrational complexities.

Also the line you give does not really hold up: 13. Bxd4 exd4 14. Bc4 Qb6 15. Rhe1 Kd8! and I think Black is much better.
  
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mefisto6
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #6 - 03/31/11 at 11:44:55
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Rhe1 looks very strong in both cases.
e.g. 14. ... Qb6 15. Rhe1 Be7 16. Qe2 Qd6 17. Rxd4
You shouldn't try to memorize too many variations. It is enough to know the attacking schemes. It is a positional piece sacrifice. Black and white have many ways of deviating from the 'theory'. White has the best practical chances in my opinion.
Anyway, chances are low that you will ever be able to play this variation. None of my opponents has ever played 7. .. e5 8. Nf5 g6.
  
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F22
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #5 - 03/31/11 at 02:01:28
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mefisto6 wrote on 03/30/11 at 17:24:06:
13. Bxd4 exd4 14. Bc4 is a sharper move order. White has the choice between Rhe1 and Rxd4 on the next move.


What happens after 14. ... Qb6 or 14. ... Bc5 ?
  
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mefisto6
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #4 - 03/30/11 at 17:24:06
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13. Bxd4 exd4 14. Bc4 is a sharper move order. White has the choice between Rhe1 and Rxd4 on the next move.
  
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #3 - 03/24/11 at 08:04:46
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I had a chance to look at the chapter 3 of the book which deals with the Prenyi attack: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e6 7. g4 e5 8. Nf5 g6 9. g5 gxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. Qf3 d4 12. O-O-O Nbd7.

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Here the author looks at 4 oprions and thinks only 2 are difficult for Black: 13. Bxd4 and 13. Bc4. Unfortunately there are big holes in the analysis:

  • 13. Bc4 the main line in the book is 13. ... Qc7 and it is noted that 13. ... dxc3 loses quickly to 14. Bxf7+!. However Black's best move, 13. ... dxe3, is not even mentioned! White is offering a piece so it seems natural to look at it, it is every engine's top pick and finally Malcolm Pein suggested it while annotating Timman - Smeets. Anyway after Black takes the bishop White does not have any advantage.
  • 13. Bxd4 exd4 14. Rxd4 Bc5 to my very surprise the author takes 14. ... Bg7 to be the main line. 15. Rd1 Qc7 16. gxf6 Nxf6 17. Bc4 Be7 18. Nd5! Qxc4 19. Nxe7! Qxa2 20. Rhe1 Qa1+ 21. Kd2 Qxb2 22. Nxc8+ Kf8 23. Qe3 "and White should win." The only problem with this line is: 17. ... O-O! after which White has no advantage. The best I can come up with 18. Nd5 Nxd5 19. Rxd5 Kh8 20. f6 Rg8 21. Bd3 Bd6 22. Qe4 Bf4+ 23. Kb1 Rg6 24. Qe8+ Rg8 25. Qe4 with repetition.

If I am missing something here let me know.
  
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #2 - 03/18/11 at 08:14:20
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Apparently The Cutting Edge 2: Sicilian Najdorf 6. Be3 is out. Any in-house reviews?
  
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Re: Perenyi attack
Reply #1 - 02/13/11 at 05:25:41
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It will be covered in The Cutting Edge 2 by Pavlovic. Coming out very soon. The pdf excerpt (on a different Be3 variation) was uploaded to the Quality Chess site yesterday.
  
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Perenyi attack
02/13/11 at 03:09:38
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1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.g4 e5 8.Nf5 g6 9.g5 gxf5 10.exf5 d5

In this line of the Perenyi attack where can I find the old analysis and latest analysis? Its clear to me that the computer has a very hard time understanding whats going on.

  
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