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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch (Read 13985 times)
JonathanB
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #14 - 05/08/11 at 17:18:58
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Since taking part in this thread, I've discovered that Harding's book on the Leningrad from 1974 includes a whole chapter on 7. d5.

In fact the game I mentioned a few posts up only deviates from his analysis on move 11 and that because I wanted to avoid a variation that begins with a Black move that Harding gives a "!" and assesses as leading to "interesting complications".

  

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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #13 - 04/09/11 at 07:54:28
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Earlier I raised another question regarding an early d5 (except with Nc3 instead of Nf3) - which is a bit awkward for a Qe8 leningrad player:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1171221259/16#16


Btw, here is another thread covering early d5 for a Nc6 player:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1182867898/5#5
  
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #12 - 04/09/11 at 07:31:46
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I agree there is not much on 7.d5 - beim for example does not cover it either and it is one of those lines a 7..nc6 player doesn't like to see (like any time a favoured line is prevented at the last hurdle  Angry)

I have played 7..nc6 on and off for a number of years and have had fair results with it - i have found it in particular a good choice against stronger players. beware though it is highly committal and if the attack - which can be huge - peters out the Q-side can be hard to defend.

  
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #11 - 04/08/11 at 13:59:07
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TalJechin wrote on 04/08/11 at 13:39:59:
Is there any independent ideas with 7.d5 except for avoiding 7...Nc6?


Good question.  RDK's notes at the time - various places - make reference to playing 7. d5 specifically to avoid the position after 7. Nc3 Nc6, 8. d5 Ne5, 9. Nxe5 dxe5 (e.g. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1065174).  As you say, with thirty years of hindsight, it doesn't really make much sense to duck that line any more

- in contrast to the poster above, btw, I thought 10. c5 was commonly accepted as the best move in that line.  I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in John Cox's Starting Out: d4 and the aforementioned McDonald book on the Dutch anyway -

I'm not aware of any RDK annotation that addressed the possibility of the ... Nc6-a5 plan, but, ironically perhaps, avoiding that line might be more the reason to play 7. d5 these days.  Wasn't it recommended in McDonald's recent book on the Leningrad Dutch (i.e. not the general Starting Out book)?

  

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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #10 - 04/08/11 at 13:39:59
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Is there any independent ideas with 7.d5 except for avoiding 7...Nc6,? Since the long dark diagonal has been opened it's harder to play for b3 or b4 without inserting Nc3.

So, I think the only point of 7.d5 is in avoiding the old ML which generally isn't thought of very highly theoretically and thus from a theoretical standpoint it's hardly worth mentioning. But sure, practically it might be worthwhile to avoid the opponent's favourite line.

Though in my experience white either prefers to prepare something after 7...Nc6 8.d5 or go for an earlier sideline like g3+Nh3 or g3+c3+Qb3 etc etc.
  
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #9 - 04/08/11 at 12:30:53
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TalJechin wrote on 04/08/11 at 10:19:10:
That's probably more because Keene was a quite strong player in the 1970s.

...

I wouldn't be surprised if 7...c5 nowadays arises most often via the Benonigrad (1.d4 c5 2.d5 f5) transposing to a Leningrad.



RDK was clearly England's leading player in the period 1970-74 it's true - and possibly even for another year or so.  We agree there.

I'd noticed that 7. ... c5 transposes into the Clarendon Court too.  It seems that White has more testing lines in that move-order so perhaps Black has gained something with the transpo - though I'm not convinced it's enough to justify the choice.

Agreed about your assessment of, and reasons to play, the Dutch too - that's exactly why I play it as Black myself (the Classical not Leningrad).

The thing about 7. d5, for me anyway, is that it doesn't seem that terrible a move to justify it getting so little attention.  Nothing, for example, in the chess pub archives as far as I can tell.  Not mentioned in McDonald's Starting Out: The Dutch, not mentioned in Pedersen's old book on the Leningrad.  (My library is not exhaustive as you can tell).

Not the 'best' move I'm sure, but it seems to me one worth considering.  Especially if, like me, you only get to face the Leningrad once every 20 years or so.






  

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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #8 - 04/08/11 at 11:17:38
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Raspje wrote on 03/25/11 at 20:19:27:
After watching the exciting game Giri-Aronian, played in Monaco and won by black with 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5?!, I wanted to present an overview of the variation 7...Nc6. There was an earlier discussion about this move because Neil McDonald analysed it, not very convincingly, in his quite nice book 'Play the Dutch'  (Londen 2010).

Here is the game Giri-Aronian, analysed by Raspje (R) and Rybka4 (R4):

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 Nc6 ({Still playable.} 7... c6 {or}) (7...Qe8 {can be tried.}) 8. d5 Ne5?!(8... Na5  9. b3  (9. Qa4 c5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Rd1!? Qb6!? (11... Ne4?! 12. Nxe4 fxe4 13. Ng5 Nd4 14. Be3! Nf5 15. Bf4! e3 16. Bd5+ Kh8 17. Nf7+ Rxf7 18. Bxf7 Bxb2 19. Rab1 exf2+ 20. Kxf2 Bd4+ 21. Rxd4! Nxd4 22. c5 with an attack {R4.}) 12. Nd5 Nxd5 13. cxd5 Ne5 (13... Qb4!?) 14. Nd4 Bd7=) 9... Ne4?! (9... c5! 10. Bd2! (10. Bb2 a6 11. a4 {Reich-Bjelacac, Internet 2004} Qb6!12. Nd2 e5 with counterchances {R4.}) 10... h6 11. e4!? {R.} (11. Qc2 g5 12. h4 (12. e4 fxe4 13. Nxe4 Bf5 14. Nxf6+ Rxf6 15. Qc3 b6 unclear {McDonald.} 16. Qe3 Qf8 17. Rae1 Re8 18. Bc3 Rf7 19. Bxg7 Qxg7 20. h4 g4 21.Nd2 e5 22. Ne4 Nb7 unclear {R, R4.}) 12... g4 13. Ne1 a6 14. Nd3 (14. a4 e5) 14...b5! with counterchances) 11... fxe4 12. Nh4 Qe8! {R4.} 13. Nxe4 g5 unclear) 10. Nxe4 Bxa1 11.Neg5 c5 12. e4 Bg7 13. Nh4 with an attac {McDonald, and I agree. The statistics alsoshow this variation is awful for black.}) 9. Nxe5 dxe5 10. c5 Kh8?!        (10... e4!? {was played a few times by female player Hoang Thanh Trang, although after10.Qb3.} 11. Bf4! (11. Qb3 e6! 12. Rd1 exd5 13. Nxd5 Be6 14. Nxf6+ Qxf6 15.Qxb7 Qf7 with compensation{R4, R. The bishop on g2 is no hero.}) 11... e6 12. d6 cxd6 13.cxd6 with an obvious advantage) (10... e6 11. Bg5!(11.dxe6 c6) (11. d6 cxd6 12. cxd6 Ne8 13.Be3 Qxd6 14. Qa4 e4 15. Rfd1 Qe7 16. Rac1 with compensation {R4, R.}) 11... h6 12. Bxf6 Qxf6 13. Nb5 Qf7 14. d6 cxd6 15. Nxd6 Qc7 16. Rc1 e4 17. b4 Bd7 18. Qb3 with the advantage {R4, R.}) 11. Qb3 h6 12. Rd1 g5 13. Bd2! {Strong play by Giri. The bishop isdefending the kingside and can always go to a5.} a6 14. Be1 Qe8 15. d6 exd6 16.cxd6 c6? ({?, according to Aronian. Now white is practically winning. Butthere doesn't seem to be a reasonable alternative:} 16... cxd6 17. Rxd6 e4 18.Na4 Bd7 19. Nc5 Bc6 20. Ne6 Rf7 21. Bc3 and wins) (16... Rf7 17. Rac1 cxd6 18. Rxd6 Bf8 19. Rd8 Qxd8 20. Qxf7 Qe7 21. Qxe7 Bxe7 22. Nd5 Nxd5 23. Bxd5 Bd6 24. Ba5
e4 25. Bc7 with a large advantage {R4, R.}) 17. Na4 e4 18. Nc5 f4 19. Bc3 e3 20. Bxf6 Rxf6 21. d7 Bxd7 22. Nxd7 exf2+ 23. Kf1 Re6 24. Nb6?!{"The worst move I have ever seen"- Viktor Korchnoi  Cool...still a great feeling for the game.} (24. Rd2 b5 25.gxf4 gxf4 26. Kxf2 and wins) 24... Re3 25. Qc4 Rb8 26.Rd7? (26. Bf3) 26... fxg327. hxg3 Qh5! 28. Kxf2 Rbe8 29. Re1 Qh2 30. Qg4 R3e6 31. Rd3?? (31. Rf7 Kg832. Rxg7+ Kxg7 33. Nd7=) 31... h5 32. Qxg5 Rf6+ 33. Rf3 Rxf3+ 34. Kxf3 Rf8+
35. Ke3 Qxg2 36. Kd3 Qf2 37. Rh1 Qd4+ 38. Kc2 Qxb2+ 39. Kd1 Qb1+ 40. Kd2 Qxh1
0-1


An impressive schwindle by Lev. Aronian! He might become world champion one day Smiley...


I looked at this many times over the years and never found a completely satisfactory solution. Somehow 10.c5 is never recommended in the books, but is it quite annoying. A few years ago I had a completely lost position agains a lower-rated junior at the Copenhagen open, but managed a total swindle in the end.
The Line is well-known including 13.Bd2!
But, I think 12...g5 is not the most accurate move-order.
  
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #7 - 04/08/11 at 10:19:10
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JonathanB wrote on 04/07/11 at 22:53:42:
TD wrote on 04/07/11 at 16:17:25:
If Black is a 7...Nc6 player, he can play 7...Nbd7 and if 8.Nc3 then 8...Ne5 ....


Yes I noticed that.  It assumes Black wants to follow up with ... Ne5 and not ... Na5, of course.

Incidentally, 7... Nbd7, 8. Nd4 Nc5 as you suggest and now 9. Nc3 would transpose into my game from Tuesday night.

I forgot to mention before that one of the reasons why Ray Keene did so well with 7. d5 might have been that the main line in those days was 7. ... c5 in reply (aiming for ... Na6-c7, ... Rb8, ...a6 and ... b5 and so on).  The position that leads to seems to be comfortably += though.


That's probably more because Keene was a quite strong player in the 1970s.

Imo 7..c5 is still a nice variation for those who usually prefer 7...Nc6 and Na5. That it's less popular nowadays may have more to do with the fact that most Leningraders also have the 7...c6 system as a back-up... And since most recent books on the Leningrad recommend 7... Qe8 / c6, the c5 line isn't mentioned and thus black may either suppose there's something wrong with it or just prefer to play the back-up.

I wouldn't be surprised if 7...c5 nowadays arises most often via the Benonigrad (1.d4 c5 2.d5 f5) transposing to a Leningrad.

In addition to Na6-c7 and playing for b5, Black can also have the knight stay put on a6 to take the edge off b2-b4, and play for Qe8, h6, g5, Qh5 or if appropriate Qe8-f7 to hit f2 andor c4.

Perhaps it's += (some would claim that already after 1...f5) but in practice += can easily swing to -/+ very rapidly - which is why you play the Dutch in the first place. Smiley
  
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #6 - 04/07/11 at 22:53:42
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TD wrote on 04/07/11 at 16:17:25:
If Black is a 7...Nc6 player, he can play 7...Nbd7 and if 8.Nc3 then 8...Ne5 ....


Yes I noticed that.  It assumes Black wants to follow up with ... Ne5 and not ... Na5, of course.

Incidentally, 7... Nbd7, 8. Nd4 Nc5 as you suggest and now 9. Nc3 would transpose into my game from Tuesday night.

I forgot to mention before that one of the reasons why Ray Keene did so well with 7. d5 might have been that the main line in those days was 7. ... c5 in reply (aiming for ... Na6-c7, ... Rb8, ...a6 and ... b5 and so on).  The position that leads to seems to be comfortably += though.

  

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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #5 - 04/07/11 at 16:17:25
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If Black is a 7...Nc6 player, he can play 7...Nbd7 and if 8.Nc3 then 8...Ne5 (= 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.d5 Ne5). If 8.Nd4 then 8...Nc5 or 8...Ne5.
  
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #4 - 04/07/11 at 16:11:58
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Stigma wrote on 04/07/11 at 15:28:50:
This is just armchair reasoning (and how I would think if confronted with 7.d5 in a game), so please correct me if I'm wrong!


Well actually after waiting for more than 20 years to be able to play 7. d5 - really - I finally did so a couple of nights ago.  My opponent, as you suggest, played 7 ... Na6 and then 8 ... Nc5 and left ... Qe8 out altogether.

I did win in the end - but not at all to do with the opening.


I'm not trying to suggest 7. d5 is somehow 'better' than 7. Nc3, just an idea worth thinking about.  Well I'm thinking about it anyway and that's why I asked for responses.  Thanks for yours.


  

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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #3 - 04/07/11 at 16:09:40
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When many many years ago I had the line 7... Nc6 8.d5 Ne5 in my Black repertoire I intended to meet 7.d5 with 7... Nbd7 when 8.Nc3 Ne5 transposes. From Whites point of view at least 8... Na5 has been ruled out.

7.d5 Nbd7 8.Nd4 has to be looked at but both the unusual 8... Nb6 or 8... Ne5 might be playable.
  
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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #2 - 04/07/11 at 15:28:50
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JonathanB wrote on 04/07/11 at 15:18:34:
What do people think about 7. d5 instead of 7. Nc3 to avoid ... Nc6 lines.  Ray Keene was very successful with this idea in the early seventies.

At the cost of some restriction of choice in some lines

e.g 7. d5 Qe8, 8. Nc3 or 7. d5 c6, 8. Nc3 transpose to normal positions with White already committed to the d4-d5 advance

White cuts out a move that Black might have been hoping to play and avoids the need to think about anything that appears in the original post.



But if Black is normally a 7.Nc3 Qe8 player, he should be able to meet 7.d5 with 7...Na6 or 7...a5 (according to preference) and his position is more flexible than in the main lines, since he can decide when to insert ...Qe8, or whether to play it at all. While for White there's no similar gain in flexibility since I don't think he can profitably avoid Nc3 for long.

This is just armchair reasoning (and how I would think if confronted with 7.d5 in a game), so please correct me if I'm wrong!
  

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Re: Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
Reply #1 - 04/07/11 at 15:18:34
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What do people think about 7. d5 instead of 7. Nc3 to avoid ... Nc6 lines.  Ray Keene was very successful with this idea in the early seventies.

At the cost of some restriction of choice in some lines

e.g 7. d5 Qe8, 8. Nc3 or 7. d5 c6, 8. Nc3 transpose to normal positions with White already committed to the d4-d5 advance

White cuts out a move that Black might have been hoping to play and avoids the need to think about anything that appears in the original post.

  

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Thoughts on 7...Nc6 in the Leningrad Dutch
03/25/11 at 20:19:27
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After watching the exciting game Giri-Aronian, played in Monaco and won by black with 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5?!, I wanted to present an overview of the variation 7...Nc6. There was an earlier discussion about this move because Neil McDonald analysed it, not very convincingly, in his quite nice book 'Play the Dutch'  (Londen 2010).

Here is the game Giri-Aronian, analysed by Raspje (R) and Rybka4 (R4):

[Event "rpd Monaco "]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Giri, Anish"]
[Black "Aronian, Levon"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A89"]
[Annotator "Raspje"]

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 Nc6 ({Still playable.} 7... c6 {or}) (7...Qe8 {can be tried.}) 8. d5 Ne5?!(8... Na5  9. b3  (9. Qa4 c5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Rd1!? Qb6!? (11... Ne4?! 12. Nxe4 fxe4 13. Ng5 Nd4 14. Be3! Nf5 15. Bf4! e3 16. Bd5+ Kh8 17. Nf7+ Rxf7 18. Bxf7 Bxb2 19. Rab1 exf2+ 20. Kxf2 Bd4+ 21. Rxd4! Nxd4 22. c5 with an attack {R4.}) 12. Nd5 Nxd5 13. cxd5 Ne5 (13... Qb4!?) 14. Nd4 Bd7=) 9... Ne4?! (9... c5! 10. Bd2! (10. Bb2 a6 11. a4 {Reich-Bjelacac, Internet 2004} Qb6!12. Nd2 e5 with counterchances {R4.}) 10... h6 11. e4!? {R.} (11. Qc2 g5 12. h4 (12. e4 fxe4 13. Nxe4 Bf5 14. Nxf6+ Rxf6 15. Qc3 b6 unclear {McDonald.} 16. Qe3 Qf8 17. Rae1 Re8 18. Bc3 Rf7 19. Bxg7 Qxg7 20. h4 g4 21.Nd2 e5 22. Ne4 Nb7 unclear {R, R4.}) 12... g4 13. Ne1 a6 14. Nd3 (14. a4 e5) 14...b5! with counterchances) 11... fxe4 12. Nh4 Qe8! {R4.} 13. Nxe4 g5 unclear) 10. Nxe4 Bxa1 11.Neg5 c5 12. e4 Bg7 13. Nh4 with an attac {McDonald, and I agree. The statistics alsoshow this variation is awful for black.}) 9. Nxe5 dxe5 10. c5 Kh8?!        (10... e4!? {was played a few times by female player Hoang Thanh Trang, although after10.Qb3.} 11. Bf4! (11. Qb3 e6! 12. Rd1 exd5 13. Nxd5 Be6 14. Nxf6+ Qxf6 15.Qxb7 Qf7 with compensation{R4, R. The bishop on g2 is no hero.}) 11... e6 12. d6 cxd6 13.cxd6 with an obvious advantage) (10... e6 11. Bg5!(11.dxe6 c6) (11. d6 cxd6 12. cxd6 Ne8 13.Be3 Qxd6 14. Qa4 e4 15. Rfd1 Qe7 16. Rac1 with compensation {R4, R.}) 11... h6 12. Bxf6 Qxf6 13. Nb5 Qf7 14. d6 cxd6 15. Nxd6 Qc7 16. Rc1 e4 17. b4 Bd7 18. Qb3 with the advantage {R4, R.}) 11. Qb3 h6 12. Rd1 g5 13. Bd2! {Strong play by Giri. The bishop isdefending the kingside and can always go to a5.} a6 14. Be1 Qe8 15. d6 exd6 16.cxd6 c6? ({?, according to Aronian. Now white is practically winning. Butthere doesn't seem to be a reasonable alternative:} 16... cxd6 17. Rxd6 e4 18.Na4 Bd7 19. Nc5 Bc6 20. Ne6 Rf7 21. Bc3 and wins) (16... Rf7 17. Rac1 cxd6 18. Rxd6 Bf8 19. Rd8 Qxd8 20. Qxf7 Qe7 21. Qxe7 Bxe7 22. Nd5 Nxd5 23. Bxd5 Bd6 24. Ba5
e4 25. Bc7 with a large advantage {R4, R.}) 17. Na4 e4 18. Nc5 f4 19. Bc3 e3 20. Bxf6 Rxf6 21. d7 Bxd7 22. Nxd7 exf2+ 23. Kf1 Re6 24. Nb6?!{"The worst move I have ever seen"- Viktor Korchnoi  Cool...still a great feeling for the game.} (24. Rd2 b5 25.gxf4 gxf4 26. Kxf2 and wins) 24... Re3 25. Qc4 Rb8 26.Rd7? (26. Bf3) 26... fxg327. hxg3 Qh5! 28. Kxf2 Rbe8 29. Re1 Qh2 30. Qg4 R3e6 31. Rd3?? (31. Rf7 Kg832. Rxg7+ Kxg7 33. Nd7=) 31... h5 32. Qxg5 Rf6+ 33. Rf3 Rxf3+ 34. Kxf3 Rf8+
35. Ke3 Qxg2 36. Kd3 Qf2 37. Rh1 Qd4+ 38. Kc2 Qxb2+ 39. Kd1 Qb1+ 40. Kd2 Qxh1
0-1


An impressive schwindle by Lev. Aronian! He might become world champion one day Smiley...

  
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