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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5 (Read 77841 times)
Arcticmonkey
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #16 - 04/05/11 at 14:10:37
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 12:21:57:
But if 3.Bc4 c5 4.dxc5 is good, it's still just a specific Anti-Sniper line.

Unless Black is completely brainwashed he can just switch to playing the Pirc, Modern or Hippo, can't he? I don't think lines with Bc4 are very critical against those.

Edit: 3.Bc4 d6 4.Nf3 is still a solid and playable line of course. So 3.Bc4 could be well worth a try against suspected Snipers.


I agree that this might be a good try against people who you think might play the sniper. I wonder about the two following lines that i don't think have been mentioned yet (after 1.e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3.Bc4 c5 4.dxc5)

-4...Qa5+ 5.c3 Qxc5 6.Qb3 e6 7.Be3 Qa5!?
AND
-4...Nc6!? 5.Nc3 Qa5 6.Nge2 Nf6 7.0-0 Qxc5 8.Bb3 0-0 9.Be3 Qa5. I find it hard to believe that Black would be much worse here. To be honest, the second line looks like a dragon but White castled kingside. Black seems to have good c-file counterplay as is usual in the Sicilian with ...Bd7, ...Rac8 etc with no attacks on his king to worry about. Looks equal to me. There's improvements along the way in this line i'm sure, somebody find them!
  
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Stigma
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #15 - 04/05/11 at 14:03:56
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TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 13:46:11:
I wonder if 3...c6 isn't possible here as well. After 4.Nc3 Black can play 4...b5!? 5.Bb3 b4 6.Nce2 d5 with an interesting, imbalanced position, and 4.Qf3 e6 is fine for Black as 5.e5 is well met by 5...d6 or 5...d5.

As far as I know 3.c3 c5 4.dc5 wasn't really covered properly. I'm not sure how Black can regain his pawn as 4...Qc7 can be answered by 5.Be3. 4...Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qd5 doesn't help Black's cause either.

I think 3...d5 was the main recommendation, but then 4.ed5 Qd5 5.Nf3 c5 is a variation of the Alapin known to slightly favour White. The trap 6.Be3 cd4 7.cd4 Nh6?? 8.Qc1! is also best avoided.


I've never seen 3.c3 c5 recommended anywhere, probably for the reason you give. Persson has 3.c3 d6 while Storey has 3.c3 d5.

About the Sicilian transposition; is it that clear? Not all c3 Sicilian books are that pessimistic about Black's chances there. Btw. all the analysis on it in Storey's book is available in the free extract on the Everyman site.
  
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TN
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #14 - 04/05/11 at 13:46:11
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 12:21:57:
But if 3.Bc4 c5 4.dxc5 is good, it's still just a specific Anti-Sniper line.

Unless Black is completely brainwashed he can just switch to playing the Pirc, Modern or Hippo, can't he? I don't think lines with Bc4 are very critical against those.

Edit: 3.Bc4 d6 4.Nf3 is still a solid and playable line of course. So 3.Bc4 could be well worth a try against suspected Snipers.


I wonder if 3...c6 isn't possible here as well. After 4.Nc3 Black can play 4...b5!? 5.Bb3 b4 6.Nce2 d5 with an interesting, imbalanced position, and 4.Qf3 e6 is fine for Black as 5.e5 is well met by 5...d6 or 5...d5.

As far as I know 3.c3 c5 4.dc5 wasn't really covered properly. I'm not sure how Black can regain his pawn as 4...Qc7 can be answered by 5.Be3. 4...Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qd5 doesn't help Black's cause either.

I think 3...d5 was the main recommendation, but then 4.ed5 Qd5 5.Nf3 c5 is a variation of the Alapin known to slightly favour White. The trap 6.Be3 cd4 7.cd4 Nh6?? 8.Qc1! is also best avoided.
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #13 - 04/05/11 at 13:35:53
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Excellent point Arctic Monkey

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Arcticmonkey
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #12 - 04/05/11 at 13:34:10
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 12:49:24:
Another thing:

If White is a 1.d4 player and happy to transpose to various kinds of Benoni, what is to stop him from playing 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.c4, or 3.c4 c5 4.d5?


Not that i am Sniper no.2 or anything, but Storey does consider these lines in the book. The difference between this and most benoni's is that the knight is already developed to f6 on move one and lost its flexibility. Storey gives a ...Ne7 manouvre in most or all of his lines since the knight hasn't decided where it wants to go yet. Yea the knight is a person what of it.
In any case, if you happen to be a benoni player as well which i suspect would be a bonus if you intend to play the sniper, than you can also play ...Nf6 and transpose to the benoni if you want! (with the advantage of avoiding many theoretical lines with the move order 1...g6 2...Bg7 and 3...c5 etc).
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #11 - 04/05/11 at 13:23:00
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For the record, Hillarp Persson in "Tiger's Modern" mentions 3.Bc4 c5!? 4. dxc5 Qa5+ 5. c3 Qxc5 6. Qb3!? e6 7. Be3 Qc6! 8.Nd2 Nf6 9.Bb5?! etc., and comments "Though White must certainly be able to improve on his ninth move, I am even more worried about 8.Na3!?, when White gets a fantastic initiative if Black grabs the e-pawn."

The implication is that Black should probably choose 3...d6 instead, when Hillarp Persson is happy to transpose to the Pirc after either 4.Nc3 Nf6 or 4.Nf3 Nf6.
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #10 - 04/05/11 at 12:49:24
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Another thing:

If White is a 1.d4 player and happy to transpose to various kinds of Benoni, what is to stop him from playing 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5.c4, or 3.c4 c5 4.d5?
  
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #9 - 04/05/11 at 12:41:41
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 12:21:57:
But if 3.Bc4 c5 4.dxc5 is good, it's still just a specific Anti-Sniper line.

Unless Black is completely brainwashed he can just switch to playing the Pirc, Modern or Hippo, can't he? I don't think lines with Bc4 are very critical against those.

Edit: 3.Bc4 d6 4.Nf3 is still a solid and playable line of course. So 3.Bc4 could be well worth a try against suspected Snipers.


I agree. Although am not sure Charlie will. 3. Nc3 and 4. dxc or 4. d5 seem like the best lines for White.
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #8 - 04/05/11 at 12:21:57
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But if 3.Bc4 c5 4.dxc5 is good, it's still just a specific Anti-Sniper line.

Unless Black is completely brainwashed he can just switch to playing the Pirc, Modern or Hippo, can't he? I don't think lines with Bc4 are very critical against those.

Edit: 3.Bc4 d6 4.Nf3 is still a solid and playable line of course. So 3.Bc4 could be well worth a try against suspected Snipers.
  
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #7 - 04/05/11 at 11:13:13
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SuperHoop wrote on 04/05/11 at 11:00:49:
OK, if this is going to be a serious theoretical discussion, I'll make the same point I made in the old thread: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Bc4 and now is anyone prepared to argue that 3...c5 4.dxc5 Qa5+ 5.c3 Qxc5 6.Qb3 is good for Black?


Not me! This has been played in the engine room on Playchess:

[Event "16m + 0s, rated"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2010.02.13"]
[Round "?"]
[White "arboleda, Rybka 3"]
[Black "Future Breeze, Rybka 3 DynamicBree"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B06"]
[WhiteElo "2591"]
[BlackElo "2435"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "2010.02.26"]
[EventType "rapid"]
[Source "José Riverol"]
[SourceDate "2004.01.28"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Bc4 c5 4. dxc5 Qa5+ 5. c3 Qxc5 6. Qb3 e6 7. Be3 Qc7 8.
Na3 a6 9. Nf3 b5 10. Bxb5 axb5 11. Nxb5 Qc6 12. O-O-O Na6 13. Rd6 Qxe4 14. Rd4
Nc5 15. Qc4 Bxd4 16. Nd6+ Ke7 17. Nxe4 Ra4 18. b4 Bxe3+ 19. fxe3 Nxe4 20. Qxe4
Rxa2 21. Qd4 Nf6 22. Kb1 Rf2 23. e4 Rxg2 24. Qc5+ d6 25. Qc7+ Bd7 26. e5 Ne4
27. exd6+ Kf6 28. Rf1 Kg7 29. Nh4 Rc8 30. Rxf7+ 1-0
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #6 - 04/05/11 at 11:00:49
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OK, if this is going to be a serious theoretical discussion, I'll make the same point I made in the old thread: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Bc4 and now is anyone prepared to argue that 3...c5 4.dxc5 Qa5+ 5.c3 Qxc5 6.Qb3 is good for Black?
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #5 - 04/05/11 at 10:23:09
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Against b3 an Anti Sniper;

g6-Nf6 if exf6 and leave the Pawn on f6 for a very very long time.

(The rest was shameless self-promotion of 'The Black Sniper' and was deleted. - TN)
« Last Edit: 04/09/11 at 05:42:51 by TN »  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #4 - 04/05/11 at 08:31:23
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Without digressing and opening a new can of worms, the book doesn't mention anything against the Nimzovitch-Larsen attack (i.e. 1. b3), I wonder what he had in mind in his Framework? I did face a b3 Sicilian in a League game the other night, which kinda prompted this thought...
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #3 - 04/05/11 at 07:26:28
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Gambit wrote on 04/05/11 at 06:10:42:
Sounds like I missed all the fun. Apparently the Sniper thread got even more hits than the BDG, which is highly unusual. And it seems a lot was a bunch of attacks on the author of the book, Charlie Storey.
Geez...

Anyway, what is to say that after 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nf3 c5 you have a Sicilian Dragon?


Indeed, this is a Hyper-Accelerated Dragon, so there is some overlap with the Dragons section. In any case I think the file gives White more than enough information to face the Sniper with confidence and place the guns firmly in the other hand. Wink
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #2 - 04/05/11 at 07:23:41
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Thanks TN, i was looking at doing the same thing. Big help!
  
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