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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5 (Read 77628 times)
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #31 - 04/07/11 at 09:59:57
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I guess titled players can allow themselves more.

TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 01:43:21:
This thread is only for discussion of the opening, not the book published on the opening.

  

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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #30 - 04/07/11 at 09:01:34
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Greetings.

(reference to 'The Black Sniper' removed - TN)

If I was playing Black in this variation I would be most worried if White angled for a Schmidt Benoni, which is a serious test of Black's resources.

Thanks, Andrew
« Last Edit: 04/09/11 at 05:45:53 by TN »  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #29 - 04/07/11 at 08:02:19
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 19:24:13:
SuperHoop wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:44:49:
Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:03:56:
TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 13:46:11:
I think 3...d5 was the main recommendation, but then 4.ed5 Qd5 5.Nf3 c5 is a variation of the Alapin known to slightly favour White. The trap 6.Be3 cd4 7.cd4 Nh6?? 8.Qc1! is also best avoided.


About the Sicilian transposition; is it that clear? Not all c3 Sicilian books are that pessimistic about Black's chances there.


I can't believe a kingside fianchetto would be a Sicilian player's anti-Alapin weapon of choice. Usually in the Alapin with 2...d5, the move ...Bg4 is an important source of pressure, but without the option of retreating to g6 via h5, it's just going to get swapped off.

With the bishop on g7 Black also has more immediate pressure on d4. So swapping on f3 only adds to that. But in most ...d5 with ...g6 games ...Bg4 isn't played anyway.

Among others, Radabov, Karjakin, Areshchenko, Dreev and Spraggett have played the line with Black in recent years. So it's not a self-evidently bad line.

I would agree with this. To me the fianchetto lines against the Alapin are more attractive than most main Alapin lines. Mainly because they are not as theoretical (yet) and I don't think that they are any worse.
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #28 - 04/05/11 at 21:39:39
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TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:44:12:
b) 1.e4 g6 2.g3 Bg7 3.Bg2 c5 4.d3 Nc6 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.0-0 followed by c3 and eventually d4.

Both objectively equal, but not completely nonvenomous.


I did prepare 6...e5 7.0-0 (7.Nc3 Nd4 is a closed sicilian) Nge7 8.c3 (8.f5 exf5 9.Nh4 fxe4 followed by Be6 and running with the king to the queenside and after Nf5 just takes) 0-0 9.Na3 (9.f5!? is interesting) exf4 10.Bxf4 (10.gxf4?! d5 =+) d5 and I prefer black. Bg4 and d4 is in the air.

Edit: Prefer black as in I prefer that type of position. I guess its equal.
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #27 - 04/05/11 at 21:33:22
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SuperHoop wrote on 04/05/11 at 15:01:37:
Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:20:23:
SuperHoop wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:16:51:
In the Benoni-Sniper lines, why the hurry to play c4 and deprive the b1-knight of its natural Benoni square, when Black hasn't yet played ...e6 and might still go for ...e5?


You have a point; White could try to keep the c4 square free with something like d5, Nf3, Bd3, 0-0, Nbd2 (with or without h3). But without c2-c4 in it also becomes easier for Black to grab queenside space with an early ...b7-b5. Also, White must figure out how to meet an ...e6 break: dxe6 gives up the center while after ...exd5 / exd5 the d5-pawn might become a big target if White refuses (or is too late with) c2-c4.


I would react to a very early ...b5 with a very early a4 and target the b5-pawn with Na3 combined with the light-squared B. Ask the pawn what exactly it's doing on b5, if it can't capture a pawn on c4.

My idea was to wait for ...e6 then meet it with c4, with a transposition to a main-line Benoni. If Black then wants to play the "Bermuda Triangle vs. the White Arrow" (c5/d6/e5 vs. c4/d5/e4) s/he has lost a tempo on ...e6.


In this "Bermuda Triangle" line, does the knight go to e7 or h6 instead  of f6? Otherwise it's just a Czech Benoni with ...g6, and I don't think that's enough of a problem to dictate White's choice of move order.

Maybe we should be more specific about move orders. The delayed c4 also gives Black chances to play ...c4 himself if the e4 pawn isn't overprotected. For example

1. d4 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. Nf3 c5 4. d5 d6 5. Bd3 Nf6 6. O-O O-O (6... c4 can be considered even here) 7. h3 c4 or 7.c4 Bg4!?. But if your logic is what I think it is, maybe White will play c4 once Black has committed to ...Nf6?

This move order has limited White's choice of Modern Benoni line to basically the "Modern Main Line" (h3, Nf3, Bd3).White has lost the option to play the Bf4 lines, the tricky Qa4+ line, the Classical, the Knight's Tour, the Fianchetto... On the other hand White has gained the chance to meet ...e6 and ...exd5 with exd5, a line sometimes reached from an h3 King's Indian move order, and considered +=.
« Last Edit: 04/05/11 at 23:09:55 by Stigma »  

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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #26 - 04/05/11 at 19:55:04
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sorry the game was played by Vocaturo
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #25 - 04/05/11 at 19:50:39
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Hello I think one of the most critical lines in this opening runs e4-g6 d4-Bg7 Nf3-c5 dc5-Qa5 c3-Qc5 Na3-b6 Nb5-Nf6 b4!
I remember a recent Brunello game..
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #24 - 04/05/11 at 19:24:13
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SuperHoop wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:44:49:
Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:03:56:
TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 13:46:11:
I think 3...d5 was the main recommendation, but then 4.ed5 Qd5 5.Nf3 c5 is a variation of the Alapin known to slightly favour White. The trap 6.Be3 cd4 7.cd4 Nh6?? 8.Qc1! is also best avoided.


About the Sicilian transposition; is it that clear? Not all c3 Sicilian books are that pessimistic about Black's chances there.


I can't believe a kingside fianchetto would be a Sicilian player's anti-Alapin weapon of choice. Usually in the Alapin with 2...d5, the move ...Bg4 is an important source of pressure, but without the option of retreating to g6 via h5, it's just going to get swapped off.

With the bishop on g7 Black also has more immediate pressure on d4. So swapping on f3 only adds to that. But in most ...d5 with ...g6 games ...Bg4 isn't played anyway.

Among others, Radabov, Karjakin, Areshchenko, Dreev and Spraggett have played the line with Black in recent years. So it's not a self-evidently bad line.
  

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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #23 - 04/05/11 at 16:17:47
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TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:44:12:
a) 1.e4 g6 2.f4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c5 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d3 d6 6.0-0 followed by c3, Be3, Nbd2 and d4 in some order.

5...e6 6.0-0 Nge7 7.c3 0-0 8.Be3 d6 9.d4 f5 and I rather play the black side. I still regret that I didn't win this against David Flude (he began with 1.f4).
  

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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #22 - 04/05/11 at 15:01:37
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:20:23:
SuperHoop wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:16:51:
In the Benoni-Sniper lines, why the hurry to play c4 and deprive the b1-knight of its natural Benoni square, when Black hasn't yet played ...e6 and might still go for ...e5?


You have a point; White could try to keep the c4 square free with something like d5, Nf3, Bd3, 0-0, Nbd2 (with or without h3). But without c2-c4 in it also becomes easier for Black to grab queenside space with an early ...b7-b5. Also, White must figure out how to meet an ...e6 break: dxe6 gives up the center while after ...exd5 / exd5 the d5-pawn might become a big target if White refuses (or is too late with) c2-c4.


I would react to a very early ...b5 with a very early a4 and target the b5-pawn with Na3 combined with the light-squared B. Ask the pawn what exactly it's doing on b5, if it can't capture a pawn on c4.

My idea was to wait for ...e6 then meet it with c4, with a transposition to a main-line Benoni. If Black then wants to play the "Bermuda Triangle vs. the White Arrow" (c5/d6/e5 vs. c4/d5/e4) s/he has lost a tempo on ...e6.
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #21 - 04/05/11 at 14:44:49
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:03:56:
TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 13:46:11:
I think 3...d5 was the main recommendation, but then 4.ed5 Qd5 5.Nf3 c5 is a variation of the Alapin known to slightly favour White. The trap 6.Be3 cd4 7.cd4 Nh6?? 8.Qc1! is also best avoided.


About the Sicilian transposition; is it that clear? Not all c3 Sicilian books are that pessimistic about Black's chances there.


I can't believe a kingside fianchetto would be a Sicilian player's anti-Alapin weapon of choice. Usually in the Alapin with 2...d5, the move ...Bg4 is an important source of pressure, but without the option of retreating to g6 via h5, it's just going to get swapped off.
  
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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #20 - 04/05/11 at 14:44:12
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It's worth noting that players looking for a very low-theory system against the Sniper can consider one of two 'Big Clamp' setups, which can be frustrating for the Black player to face.

a) 1.e4 g6 2.f4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c5 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d3 d6 6.0-0 followed by c3, Be3, Nbd2 and d4 in some order.

b) 1.e4 g6 2.g3 Bg7 3.Bg2 c5 4.d3 Nc6 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.0-0 followed by c3 and eventually d4.

Both objectively equal, but not completely nonvenomous.
  

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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #19 - 04/05/11 at 14:24:07
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(quote of and reply to TheSniperAuthor deleted - TN)


1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Bc4 c6 4.Nc3 is a well known line, so the question is if White has better. The only candidate seems to me 4.Qf3 indeed (or Black will play ...d5 and win a tempo). Alas high level games are very rare. Here is one:

Inarkiev,E (2300) - Kupreichik,V (2505) [B06]
Olympiade Elista (10), 09.10.1998

1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Bc4 c6 4.Qf3 e6 5.Ne2 Ne7 6.Bg5 d5 7.Bb3 h6 8.Bf4 g5 9.Qg3 Na6 10.Nbc3 dxe4 11.Nxe4 0-0 12.Bd2 Nf5 13.Qf3 Nh4 14.Qg3 Nf5 15.Qf3 Qc7 16.0-0-0 Nh4 17.Qh5 f6 18.g3 Nf5 19.h4 Qf7 20.Qg4 h5 21.Qf3 g4 22.Qd3 Rd8 23.f3 c5 24.fxg4 Nxd4 25.Nxd4 cxd4 26.Rdf1 hxg4 27.Bg5 Nb4 28.Qd2 Nd5 29.Bxd5 Rxd5 30.Nxf6+ Bxf6 31.Rxf6 Qg7 32.Rhf1 Bd7 33.Bh6 Qe7 34.Rg6+ Kh7 35.Qd3 Kh8 36.Bg5 Rxg5 37.hxg5 1-0

I haven't analyzed this, but Kupreichik's opening play doesn't look optimal to me at first glance (but then, who am I to write something like this?)

Anyhow, someone who intends to play Bc4 against the Pirc/Modern doesn't have to worry about the Sniper, only to remember that 3.Bc4 is the precise move order.
« Last Edit: 04/09/11 at 05:44:37 by TN »  

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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #18 - 04/05/11 at 14:20:23
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SuperHoop wrote on 04/05/11 at 14:16:51:
In the Benoni-Sniper lines, why the hurry to play c4 and deprive the b1-knight of its natural Benoni square, when Black hasn't yet played ...e6 and might still go for ...e5?


You have a point; White could try to keep the c4 square free with something like d5, Nf3, Bd3, 0-0, Nbd2 (with or without h3). But without c2-c4 in it also becomes easier for Black to grab queenside space with an early ...b7-b5. Also, White must figure out how to meet an ...e6 break: dxe6 gives up the center while after ...exd5 / exd5 the d5-pawn might become a big target if White refuses (or is too late with) c2-c4.
  

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Re: 1...g6/2...Bg7/3...c5
Reply #17 - 04/05/11 at 14:16:51
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Stigma wrote on 04/05/11 at 12:21:57:
Unless Black is completely brainwashed he can just switch to playing the Pirc, Modern or Hippo, can't he? I don't think lines with Bc4 are very critical against those.


Probably not, I only mentioned it to make the point that chess is too complex to get away with playing the same three moves against absolutely everything. If 3...d6 is a clearly better move than 3...c5, my point is proven.

Having said that, Polgar beat Shirov in a ...c6 Modern in 21 moves with a combination of Nc3, Bc4 and Qf3...

In the Benoni-Sniper lines, why the hurry to play c4 and deprive the b1-knight of its natural Benoni square, when Black hasn't yet played ...e6 and might still go for ...e5?
  
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