walkingterrapin wrote on 05/06/11 at 17:30:52:


After 6.Nxe4, Black has the strong 6...Nxe4 7.fxe4 Qh4+ winning.

I'm sorry, your post doesn't make much sense. What exactly do you want White to play after 4...Nbd7 5.Bc4 e5? And there is Nb6 too.

(4...h6) 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d5 Ne5 7.Bb3 is problematic because of 7...e6 8.fxe4 exd5. 

5.Bf4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 causes your typical attacking BDG player a few problems, as I would normally suggest long castling and aiming for a tactical middlegame, but for instance 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 e5 is awkward (10.dxe5 Qxd3 11.cxd3 Ng4 and if 12.Rg1 then 12...g5 13.Bg3 Ne3 and Black has exchanged the queens and has good play).  Rybka quite likes continuations like 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Bxc3 10.bxc3 Qe7, but intuitively I wouldn't feel comfortable in an opposite-sides castling position with such a draughty king, even though White does have a strong centre.  Short castling is also possible, e.g. 9.Be2 Bd7 10.0-0 and White might be a shade better because of the strong centre and half-open f-file but Black has plenty of scope for well-timed pawn breaks.

4...a6 is less of a problem as after 5.Bf4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 White can go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 and here 9...e5 isn't as strong for after 10.fxe5 Qxd3 11.cxd3 Ng4 12.Rg1 Black doesn't have the well-timed ...g5 and White gets the initiative in the queenless middlegame, so Black may be best off with a continuation like 9...Qe7 10.e5 Nd5 11.Nxd5 exd5, when an attacking race may follow.

Yes, the problem is that after 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 White cannot play 7.Bc4 because the c3-knight hangs, and 7.Nxd4 Bb4 is poor for White- all of this is also quite familiar from the 4...c6 5.fxe4 e5 line.  After 5.fxe4 e5, probably best is 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Ng4 8.Nd5 Kd8 9.Ke2 Nxe5, when there is still some play in the position but chances are roughly equal. 5.Nxe4 is well met by 5...e5 forcing simplification, e.g. 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Nxe4 8.fxe4 Nc6 or 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.dxe5 Qxe5+ when White has no good alternative to 8.Qe2 (Black might have better, but this line would be enough to dissuade me from playing 5.Nxe4- the same line also exists after 4...c6 5.Nxe4).

I think White's best waiting move in this position is 5.Bf4 (5.Bc4, which is best against 4...c6, is dubious against 4...h6 due to 5...Nc6) intending 5...Nc6 6.d5 and 5...Nd5 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.c4, and 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 when Bf4 is probably more useful than ...h6.  I don't think White really has much, if any, advantage here, but at least White avoids a quick queen swap without disadvantage.

Ok, thanks. I didn't think I could still use that database but it seems to work. I can't seem to copy and paste the moves though.

I found the game Milde, L (1880) - Dehaybe, A (1829), chessfriend.com 2003 and it was a queenless middlegame with 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 7.Qxd4 Qxd4 8.Nxd4 where I would rather be Black.



(It's Black to move here, so I don't think the arrow is pointing in the right direction. Sorry, it's my first time doing a diagram.)

Gambit wrote on 04/26/11 at 16:30:20:


One game. Wow. Do you have it?

TN wrote on 04/26/11 at 10:51:20:


Of course, I think it's objectively strongest to simply accept, but what I love about these continuations is that objectively White's best option is probably 5.Nxe4, which undercuts all of White's macho pretensions. I looked at some sample a3 waiting move lines last night and I think Black simply gets improved versions of the accepted lines. The h6 move is actually quite useful! On the other hand, a3 is nearly always weakening if White attempts plans with queenside castling. (For example, see the lines from Buecker's analysis on 5..Bf5 6.Bd3 in this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1242131583/28 )

I think the BDG is all about fear. It takes many different forms from passive defense to erroneous moralization, but the impact is mainly psychological in my opinion. Theoretical equality is OK with many BDG players because they know they can still cheat their opponents. This is one reason why I think it's nice to have to have a psychological response that turns the tables.

Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:


My feeling is that it is playable also, despite its weakening appearance. 5..Bf5 and 5..e6 are the most appealing accepted variations to me. I don't really consider the BDG seriously for my repertoire, partly because I do not allow it with the move orders I use (which has nothing to do with the BDG - I just don't play 1..d5).

Ideas behind 4..h6:

1) It offers counterattacking possibilities after 5.fxe4 e5 or 5.Bc4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4. I mentioned these earlier. I didn't see an advantage for White, and it actually seemed like there was some danger for White in these lines.

2) If White plays the waiting game as well with a move like a3, Black can consider accepting with exf3. If this is the best White has, I am not entirely sure the exchange a3, h6 is entirely in White's favor. For instance, 5.Bc4 e6 6.a3 exf3 and now White is committed to Bc4 when many BDG players would prefer Bd3 in the Euwe. If 5.a3 exf3 6.Nxf3, Black could consider 6..Bf5 when h6 might have its plusses in comparision with the Gunderam. For instance, maybe it renders some of the ideas with g4-g5 less effective. Another funny possibility: 5.a3 c6 (another waiting move!) 6.Bc4 exf3 7.Nxf3 Bf5 and Black has cut out the "Alchemy" plan with Ng5. There are a few differences that need to be considered in determining whether h6 is beneficial or detrimental. If 4..h6 cuts out some of the more dangerous lines, maybe it is not as weakening as it appears.

I am not certain of the answers to these questions, but I did not see anything really convincing in White's favor. I don't really see this move catching on either, since it looks horrible and the reasoning behind the move is a bit convoluted. Such is the birth of the Lolwut Defense.

The funny thing is that I have seen a lot of odd moves in BDG literature, yet I have seen no evidence that this move has even been considered.

Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:


Really? What does 4...h6 do except weaken the Kingside  here? As for the Bogoljubow Defense, I won some nice games with the Studier-Zilbermints Attack, 5...g6 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! Methinks you are too much of a pessimist, Glenn.

I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.

You better analyse the complications well after 7.e5 Nd5 8.Qg4 Nxc3 9.Qxg7.

Jupp53 wrote on 04/19/11 at 21:21:32:


Your variation with ...Ke7 looks fine to me too.  When I had this on Houdini it seemed to do a lot of the ...c6, ...Kc7 stuff.

I think both sides need to be a little careful in the ...e3 line but I'd still argue it's basically equal.  I actually recommended 5...e6, after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Nbd7 5.Bf4, more highly than 5...e3 when I think White has to be precise to maintain equality.

Meat wrote on 04/12/11 at 12:05:14:


It's still a game but it looks pretty equal to me.

[1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Nbd7]
There is also 5.Bg5 of course. Black has several reasonable replies, but I quite like 5...c6 transposing to a line of the Veresov where Black scores well: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.f3 c6 5.e4 dxe4, eg 6.fxe4 e5 7.dxe5 Qa5.

Yeah, [sidestepping] all the fun! Correct is 5 Bf4! stopping [this] line.

[No more about chickens, Lev -- Markovich]

Interesting! What do you think about 5.Bf4 to prevent ...e5?
At first glance it seems like a good way to maintain chances of an attacking/unclear game.