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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #13 - 04/12/11 at 17:01:28
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Most people don't think about this, but this move order could effect your response to the c3 sicilian. After 2...e6 3. c3 black is now stuck playing an e6 line of the c3 sicilian. So you would need to figure out if this works well in conjunction with your response to the c3 sicilian. I play the scheveningen and I also play the Nf6, d6 , g6 response to the c3 sicilian so playing the e6/taimanov wouldn't work for me.

Just something to think about. Also, i guess th same goes for your response to the morra gambit, as white can play a delayed version and now if you accept you are stuck having played the move e6.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #12 - 04/12/11 at 12:49:47
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It's a critical test of this move order. It's not the only one. Apparently, if best could be determined by democratic processes, transposing to the main lines is at least as good as the Sozin treatment.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #11 - 04/12/11 at 11:47:50
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Indeed Smiley

Best? Goodness knows. There isn't anything dramatic as black is being very sensible. Theoretically respected? Fairly much yes, if a tiny bit neglected due to it not actually occurring very much recently.
(principally because 6 Bg5 vs the Classical has turned out to be really quite effective than any defect(s).).

Dangerous in practice? Very much so. For both sides of course....
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #10 - 04/12/11 at 11:33:41
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gewgaw wrote on 04/12/11 at 11:29:54:
just to be sure, is this the best system against Nc6/d6?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 a6 8. Qe2




Not sure that anyone can be 'sure' about such things. Serious question?
Chess - a complex game, don't know much about PCs, but it appears to remain so.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #9 - 04/12/11 at 11:29:54
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just to be sure, is this the best system against Nc6/d6?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 a6 8. Qe2


  

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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #8 - 04/11/11 at 17:59:22
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I think the main reason this line isn't played more often for Black is that he has to be prepared for two other lines that normally arise when Black tries to play the Taimanov:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 and since Black isn't attacking the e4-pawn, White can play 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 or 5.Nb5 d6 c4. 

Neither of those variations lead to normal Scheveningen pawn structures.  It's up to you whether you'd rather allow those lines, plus deal with a possibly slightly better (for White) version of the Sozin, just to avoid the Keres. 

Personally if I were a Scheveningen player, I'd be booked to the teeth on the Keres in an attempt to scare White players away from there!  Of course that's much easier said than done...
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #7 - 04/11/11 at 12:54:07
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I'm sorry. I read 4...Nf6, not 4.Nc6.

MartinC is right, the Sozin variation (Be3 followed by Bc4) is indeed a critical line here.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #6 - 04/11/11 at 09:04:50
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Either 6 g4 anyway or English attack style stuff I suspect. Classical Shevy OK too of course, so long as you're happy with whites play in the non a6 lines.

The Sozin is a non trivial practical deterrent (theoretically perhaps not so bad) because there's rather a lot of relatively sharp theory there that the standard Shevy move order just avoids completely. Even Classical players often dodge it all via the early Qb6 lines.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #5 - 04/10/11 at 20:16:13
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Bibs wrote on 04/10/11 at 13:04:57:
This approach is well-known and popular as an anti-Keres move order. Using 5...d6.

Argument is that g4 has less bite as no Knight there on f6. So Ne7-g6 stuff can happen.  Also black idea of ...g5 versus e4,f4,g4, as in a famous Polgar game. Look in your dbase - you should find plenty of examples.
Had such a game as white, quick chopping, ...wish I could find...
White is quite happy with Q on e2 in such.


Indeed, it´s a somewhat anti-Keres line, so which setup is the most dangerous approach against it in your opinion?
  

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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #4 - 04/10/11 at 13:04:57
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This approach is well-known and popular as an anti-Keres move order. Using 5...d6.

Argument is that g4 has less bite as no Knight there on f6. So Ne7-g6 stuff can happen.  Also black idea of ...g5 versus e4,f4,g4, as in a famous Polgar game. Look in your dbase - you should find plenty of examples.
Had such a game as white, quick chopping, ...wish I could find...
White is quite happy with Q on e2 in such.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #3 - 04/10/11 at 12:45:26
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Kylemeister nailed it. The Keres variation (g4) is the main reason this move order isnt' more popular. Take a look at some of the threads here on that variation.

The Sozin isn't a particularly compelling reason to avoid this move order.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #2 - 04/10/11 at 09:43:28
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The Sozin is a major issue of sorts. Kasparov did do it a couple of times vs Karpov but then stopped because of the Nb5/c4 stuff. More because that suited Karpov I think.

No especially good reason to avoid it, and the odd incentive to use it, though and I think its less common simply because its not so 'natural' somehow.

It is known, respected and does get used by strong players though.

  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #1 - 04/09/11 at 17:24:23
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After 5...d6, 6. g4 is still a serious move, and Black is committed to ...Nc6 versus the Sozin and English.  5...Qc7 gives up some possibilities in the case of a Classical Scheveningen, and is doubtful in the case of an English (versus Scheveningen).
  
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Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
04/09/11 at 17:04:55
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Hi all,

I usually play the Taimanov, but I had always an eye on the scheveningen, due to move transpositions.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 (5... Qc7)

Why isn´t this move order more common? It simply avoids the keres and the Nb8 just jumps a little bit earlier to his square c6 without any commitments?
Huh

  

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