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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen (Read 10805 times)
Daniel
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #28 - 08/02/11 at 12:59:17
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On a somewhat unrelated note, could the old main line of the Najdorf be a decent winning weapon for black? Are there any recommend resources for learning it?
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #27 - 07/15/11 at 21:33:52
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kylemeister wrote on 07/05/11 at 23:21:28:
OrangeCounty wrote on 07/05/11 at 22:34:29:
If there's a fast way to explain how this is still true while 7...Nbd7 and even 6...Nbd7 have been rehabilitated, I would love to hear it.


I would think the basic difference is that with ...Be7 in, White is threatening Bxe6.


Thanks.  I knew this subtlety from the 6. Bc4 Najdorf (Play ...Bb7 or ...Be7, but NOT BOTH!), but hadn't made the connection.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #26 - 07/05/11 at 23:21:28
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/05/11 at 22:34:29:
If there's a fast way to explain how this is still true while 7...Nbd7 and even 6...Nbd7 have been rehabilitated, I would love to hear it.


I would think the basic difference is that with ...Be7 in, White is threatening Bxe6.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #25 - 07/05/11 at 22:34:29
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kylemeister wrote on 07/01/11 at 04:24:37:
8...Nbd7 has always been frowned upon due to 9. Bc4.


If there's a fast way to explain how this is still true while 7...Nbd7 and even 6...Nbd7 have been rehabilitated, I would love to hear it.  I've been away from the Najdorf too long as black, and as White, everyone seems to play ...Be7 against me, much to my delight.

I assume that if nothing else, Black can always answer h2-h4 with an h-pawn move of his own.  And that's if he really has nothing else he wants to do (like develop his Queenside).
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #24 - 07/01/11 at 13:47:40
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BirdBrain wrote on 07/01/11 at 01:56:24:
having the idea of h4-h5-h6 if able.

Sounds reasonable, but what if Black answers x.h6 with ...g6 ? White's play is a bit slow, so Black will develop counterplay with ...b5; ....Bb7; and ...Nc5; Then White's King will not be too safe either and also pawn e4 is weak.
  

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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #23 - 07/01/11 at 04:24:37
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BirdBrain wrote on 07/01/11 at 01:56:24:
I don't know at the moment what I wanted to play after ...Qc7, but how do you evaluate h4 Qc7 then, or h4 in general?  It seems that the book I have likes g4 more...I know there are definite reasons, but why not h4? 
My basic idea was to shove the h-pawn as far down my opponent's throat (not all in a row), but having the idea of h4-h5-h6 if able.


I'd say the business of pushing the h-pawn looks rather odd.  Incidentally 11. h4 is a known try against the Browne system (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Be7 8. Qf3 Qc7 9. 0-0-0 Nbd7 10. Bd3 h6), but is considered dubious as far as I know.

8...Nbd7 has always been frowned upon due to 9. Bc4.

A famous game involving such dubious early castling by Black is Unzicker-Fischer.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #22 - 07/01/11 at 01:56:24
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I don't know at the moment what I wanted to play after ...Qc7, but how do you evaluate h4 Qc7 then, or h4 in general?  It seems that the book I have likes g4 more...I know there are definite reasons, but why not h4? 
My basic idea was to shove the h-pawn as far down my opponent's throat (not all in a row), but having the idea of h4-h5-h6 if able.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #21 - 07/01/11 at 01:32:18
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The more important question is: what reason did you have to play 10.h4 ? How did you intend to continue after 10...Qc7 ?
Of course 9...0-0 is almost a blunder.
  

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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #20 - 07/01/11 at 00:48:53
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I have a question about these piece ideas in the Najdorf Bg5 - the idea of h4, instead of g4.

I am going to post a very short game.  I know my opponent "walked" into the trap, but I didn't really play h4 just for that idea - I wanted to gain space on the kingside.  Is there any good reason to not play h4 in these positions?




1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 Nbd7
9.O-O-O O-O 10.h4 h6 11.Bd3 hxg5 12.hxg5 b5 13.Qh3 Nh5 14.Qxh5 f5 15.g6 Nf6
16.Qh8# 1-0
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #19 - 06/29/11 at 23:17:32
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MartinC wrote on 06/29/11 at 22:25:13:
Ah, not that its harmless, but I meant getting move ordered into some rather suboptimal lines of the English while trying to dodge the Keres:

cf 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d4 cd 4 Nxd4 Nc6 5 Nc3 d6 6 g4 h6!? 7 Be3 Nf6?! 8 f3 which really isn't good. That sort of approach could easily be critical for the 6 .. h6 stuff.


Oh... I agree completely.  I think it is more accurate to delay ...d6 a few moves, e.g. 5 Nc3 Qc7 6 Be3 (6 g4 h6 7 Be3 Nf6 8 f3 d5) a6 7 f3 Nf6 8 g4 h6 9 Qd2 b5!  Since the modern way to combat g2-g4-g5 is ...d5, we need to preserve the option of playing it in one move against systems that depend on that motif (Keres, obviously, but also the English and the Be3/a3 system in the Taimanov).

...d6 is an important and thematic move, and the whole point is to transpose to a Scheveningen, but not at the cost of being worse.  I know the 5...d6 move order is played often, but unless you really think you aren't going to play ...a6 and ...Qc7, it isn't essential to play it on move 5.

(...Qc7 isn't exciting against the English attack either, necessarily, but there are no perfect move orders.)
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #18 - 06/29/11 at 22:25:13
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Ah, not that its harmless, but I meant getting move ordered into some rather suboptimal lines of the English while trying to dodge the Keres:

cf 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d4 cd 4 Nxd4 Nc6 5 Nc3 d6 6 g4 h6!? 7 Be3 Nf6?! 8 f3 which really isn't good. That sort of approach could easily be critical for the 6 .. h6 stuff.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #17 - 06/29/11 at 19:39:42
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MartinC wrote on 06/28/11 at 13:16:50:
The major question cf playing this way is whether you can avoid being stuck with some kind of bad English attack via some combination of Be3 etc. Not obvious either way I think.
(there's a little analysis cf this somewhere on the forum.).


I don't really fear the English, because ...b5-b4 and ...d7-d5 is always faster than White's attack (this doesn't mean Black isn't capable of being worse, but it means Black has an available panic switch to flip if White is becoming too focused on the kingside attack).

What is troublesome is lines with Bd3 and f4; Black has no good way to take advantage of this, and can just end up in a move-down Classical Scheveningen if he is not careful (White gets Bf1-e2-d3 in one move, where the two-move version is a line of the Classical which is supposed to be = but is tricky).
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #16 - 06/28/11 at 13:16:50
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Well delaying Nf6 does actually have rather non trivial effects. Basically you go 6.. h6 anyway but white can't go h4/Rg1 half as easily because his h4 pawn just hangs.

Not that the various Keres lines with Bg2/h3 etc are precisely harmless Smiley But avoiding the absolute main line is handy!

The major question cf playing this way is whether you can avoid being stuck with some kind of bad English attack via some combination of Be3 etc. Not obvious either way I think.
(there's a little analysis cf this somewhere on the forum.).
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #15 - 06/24/11 at 01:37:03
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I agree with Kylemeister as well.  The problem is that Black doesn't have anything particularly compelling to do with his knight on g8 except move it to f6 (and certainly a Scheveningen without ...Nf6 isn't a Scheveningen anyway).  So White can just play g2-g4 as if Nf6 was played, and then g5 whenever Black gets around to moving the king's knight.

Presumably Black could play something like Nge7-g6, but then f2-f4-f5 is powerful, and if it isn't, then h2-h4-h5.  There is also ...d6, ...Bd7, and ...Nge7-c8.  But all this is pretty artificial and "pure" Taimanov-ey, with Nge7.  It does not mesh well with ...d6!

That said, I would endorse this move order for Scheveningen players willing to PLAY the Keres, since you gain a bit of flexibility in allowing g4-g5, and don't want to play ...Nbd7 anyway.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #14 - 04/13/11 at 09:47:07
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Well yes, but neither of those is an especially serious imposition Smiley

There's still a fair bit of playable choice vs those (also vs g3 ideas) so certainly not something that affect move order choice in the same way that say the Keres might.

You do get to dodge Bb5(+) entirely too of course.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #13 - 04/12/11 at 18:01:28
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Most people don't think about this, but this move order could effect your response to the c3 sicilian. After 2...e6 3. c3 black is now stuck playing an e6 line of the c3 sicilian. So you would need to figure out if this works well in conjunction with your response to the c3 sicilian. I play the scheveningen and I also play the Nf6, d6 , g6 response to the c3 sicilian so playing the e6/taimanov wouldn't work for me.

Just something to think about. Also, i guess th same goes for your response to the morra gambit, as white can play a delayed version and now if you accept you are stuck having played the move e6.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #12 - 04/12/11 at 13:49:47
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It's a critical test of this move order. It's not the only one. Apparently, if best could be determined by democratic processes, transposing to the main lines is at least as good as the Sozin treatment.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #11 - 04/12/11 at 12:47:50
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Indeed Smiley

Best? Goodness knows. There isn't anything dramatic as black is being very sensible. Theoretically respected? Fairly much yes, if a tiny bit neglected due to it not actually occurring very much recently.
(principally because 6 Bg5 vs the Classical has turned out to be really quite effective than any defect(s).).

Dangerous in practice? Very much so. For both sides of course....
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #10 - 04/12/11 at 12:33:41
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gewgaw wrote on 04/12/11 at 12:29:54:
just to be sure, is this the best system against Nc6/d6?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 a6 8. Qe2




Not sure that anyone can be 'sure' about such things. Serious question?
Chess - a complex game, don't know much about PCs, but it appears to remain so.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #9 - 04/12/11 at 12:29:54
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just to be sure, is this the best system against Nc6/d6?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bc4 a6 8. Qe2


  

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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #8 - 04/11/11 at 18:59:22
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I think the main reason this line isn't played more often for Black is that he has to be prepared for two other lines that normally arise when Black tries to play the Taimanov:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 and since Black isn't attacking the e4-pawn, White can play 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 or 5.Nb5 d6 c4. 

Neither of those variations lead to normal Scheveningen pawn structures.  It's up to you whether you'd rather allow those lines, plus deal with a possibly slightly better (for White) version of the Sozin, just to avoid the Keres. 

Personally if I were a Scheveningen player, I'd be booked to the teeth on the Keres in an attempt to scare White players away from there!  Of course that's much easier said than done...
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #7 - 04/11/11 at 13:54:07
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I'm sorry. I read 4...Nf6, not 4.Nc6.

MartinC is right, the Sozin variation (Be3 followed by Bc4) is indeed a critical line here.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #6 - 04/11/11 at 10:04:50
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Either 6 g4 anyway or English attack style stuff I suspect. Classical Shevy OK too of course, so long as you're happy with whites play in the non a6 lines.

The Sozin is a non trivial practical deterrent (theoretically perhaps not so bad) because there's rather a lot of relatively sharp theory there that the standard Shevy move order just avoids completely. Even Classical players often dodge it all via the early Qb6 lines.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #5 - 04/10/11 at 21:16:13
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Bibs wrote on 04/10/11 at 14:04:57:
This approach is well-known and popular as an anti-Keres move order. Using 5...d6.

Argument is that g4 has less bite as no Knight there on f6. So Ne7-g6 stuff can happen.  Also black idea of ...g5 versus e4,f4,g4, as in a famous Polgar game. Look in your dbase - you should find plenty of examples.
Had such a game as white, quick chopping, ...wish I could find...
White is quite happy with Q on e2 in such.


Indeed, it´s a somewhat anti-Keres line, so which setup is the most dangerous approach against it in your opinion?
  

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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #4 - 04/10/11 at 14:04:57
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This approach is well-known and popular as an anti-Keres move order. Using 5...d6.

Argument is that g4 has less bite as no Knight there on f6. So Ne7-g6 stuff can happen.  Also black idea of ...g5 versus e4,f4,g4, as in a famous Polgar game. Look in your dbase - you should find plenty of examples.
Had such a game as white, quick chopping, ...wish I could find...
White is quite happy with Q on e2 in such.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #3 - 04/10/11 at 13:45:26
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Kylemeister nailed it. The Keres variation (g4) is the main reason this move order isnt' more popular. Take a look at some of the threads here on that variation.

The Sozin isn't a particularly compelling reason to avoid this move order.
  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #2 - 04/10/11 at 10:43:28
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The Sozin is a major issue of sorts. Kasparov did do it a couple of times vs Karpov but then stopped because of the Nb5/c4 stuff. More because that suited Karpov I think.

No especially good reason to avoid it, and the odd incentive to use it, though and I think its less common simply because its not so 'natural' somehow.

It is known, respected and does get used by strong players though.

  
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Re: Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
Reply #1 - 04/09/11 at 18:24:23
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After 5...d6, 6. g4 is still a serious move, and Black is committed to ...Nc6 versus the Sozin and English.  5...Qc7 gives up some possibilities in the case of a Classical Scheveningen, and is doubtful in the case of an English (versus Scheveningen).
  
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Basic question in Sicilian Scheveningen
04/09/11 at 18:04:55
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Hi all,

I usually play the Taimanov, but I had always an eye on the scheveningen, due to move transpositions.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 d6 (5... Qc7)

Why isn´t this move order more common? It simply avoids the keres and the Nb8 just jumps a little bit earlier to his square c6 without any commitments?
Huh

  

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