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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there? (Read 17812 times)
nimzo5
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #30 - 05/30/11 at 14:36:32
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Considering most Morra advocates prefer a sharp game, d3 lines seem a simple solution although there is no surprise value in these lines now.

It is very popular for players to construct an Open Sicilian Repertoire 1.e4 c5 2. nf3 and when hit with 2... g6 they opt for either an Alapin/Morra with 3. c3.
  

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MartinC
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #29 - 05/26/11 at 10:20:33
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Not sure if d3 is a sane anti Morra gambit defence as so much tempting competition there.

But here we're talking about different accelerated dragon move orders so its these lines (and 4 Qxd4 of course!) vs stuff like 3 Bb5 if you go 2 .. Nc6.

So even a small white edge isn't really a problem so long as black likes the position.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #28 - 05/26/11 at 03:45:35
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MNb wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:42:18:
Stigma wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:34:03:
Btw. Black can even meet 4.c3 with the waiting 4...Bg7, intending 5.Bc4 d3 or 5.cxd4 d5.

When 5.exd5 Nf6 6.Bb5+ looks like an irregular Panov Caro-Kann.

Yes. My (limited) understanding is that an early Nf3 is a concession from White in these Panov positions and it should be even easier for Black to equalize here than in the regular g6-Panov (which for some reason many theory books still pretend is +=).
  

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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #27 - 05/26/11 at 03:44:32
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Stigma wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:34:03:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:19:43:
Stigma wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:00:41:
The ...d3 lines (i.e. 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 d3) look very sensible for an Accelerated Dragon player. If White has a theoretical advantage there I don't know where, and the Maroczy position type is not at all similar to what most Morra players want.

If White delays c3 with 4.Bc4, why not simply 4...Bg7 5.c3 d3? White could delay c3 even further with 5.0-0, but Black has waiting moves like ...Nc6 and ...d6 so that's not too big a problem.


5.Bc4 d3 seems to lose a tempo for White in comparison to 4..d3, so that looks like a reasonable option. I am a little averse to 4..d3 though, as I have the impression that it's a solid line for White that many Morra players are happy to play as it gives reasonable chances for kingside play. Maybe it's nothing to be afraid of, but there are a few differences from a normal Maroczy that concern me. Honestly, I have not examined it carefully, as it was not a defense I even considered playing against the Morra.

With the bishop already on c4 White could take the d3-pawn with the queen and try to justify the pawn being on c3, but it doesn't look like an advantage to me. Maybe he should throw in 6.Qb3 e6 and try to play on the weakened d6 square.

Btw. Black can even meet 4.c3 with the waiting 4...Bg7, intending 5.Bc4 d3 or 5.cxd4 d5.


That's actually the line I was referring to when I wrote 5.Bc4 d3. The "4.Bc4" at the end of my first post was a typo and should have been 3.Bc4, which I really didn't discuss in detail and was more of an aside. I mentioned 4..Bg7 as a viable solution recommended by Dzindzichashvili.
  
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MNb
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #26 - 05/26/11 at 03:42:18
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Stigma wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:34:03:
Btw. Black can even meet 4.c3 with the waiting 4...Bg7, intending 5.Bc4 d3 or 5.cxd4 d5.

When 5.exd5 Nf6 6.Bb5+ looks like an irregular Panov Caro-Kann.

ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:34:47:
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d3 4.Bxd3 Nc6 5.c4 g6 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.0-0 d6 8.h3 Nf6 9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be3 Nd7

Langrock recommends the plan 11.Rc1 Nc5 12.Bb1 and seems to have had some success with it.

While 12...f5 might be too ambitious I don't see it after the logical 12...a5. I also think Black is on familiar territory after something like 12...Bd7 13.Qd2 Qa5.
  

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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #25 - 05/26/11 at 03:34:47
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MNb wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:06:37:
Not by Palkovi and I agree. Results in practice haven't been particularly good either.
But perhaps I am wrong and does White have an edge after 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d3 4.Bxd3 Nc6 5.c4 g6 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.0-0 d6 8.h3 Nf6 9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be3 Nd7 11.Qd2 Nc5 12.Bh6 (12.Rac1 f5 13.exf5 Nxd3 14.Qxd3 Bxf5 = Babula) Bxh6 13.Qxh6 f6.
But I can't say I'm impressed. I'd prefer 6.Nc3 Bg7 7.Nge2 d6 8.0-0 Nf6 9.f3 0-0 10.Be3 or even 9.b3 0-0 10.Bb2.

What I really would like to play is a GPA setup without 5.c4, but with f4, Nf3, Qe1, Qh4 etcetera. Alas an early ...d5 seems to spoil it.


Langrock recommends the plan 11.Rc1 Nc5 12.Bb1 and seems to have had some success with it.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #24 - 05/26/11 at 03:34:03
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:19:43:
Stigma wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:00:41:
The ...d3 lines (i.e. 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 d3) look very sensible for an Accelerated Dragon player. If White has a theoretical advantage there I don't know where, and the Maroczy position type is not at all similar to what most Morra players want.

If White delays c3 with 4.Bc4, why not simply 4...Bg7 5.c3 d3? White could delay c3 even further with 5.0-0, but Black has waiting moves like ...Nc6 and ...d6 so that's not too big a problem.


5.Bc4 d3 seems to lose a tempo for White in comparison to 4..d3, so that looks like a reasonable option. I am a little averse to 4..d3 though, as I have the impression that it's a solid line for White that many Morra players are happy to play as it gives reasonable chances for kingside play. Maybe it's nothing to be afraid of, but there are a few differences from a normal Maroczy that concern me. Honestly, I have not examined it carefully, as it was not a defense I even considered playing against the Morra.

With the bishop already on c4 White could take the d3-pawn with the queen and try to justify the pawn being on c3, but it doesn't look like an advantage to me. Maybe he should throw in 6.Qb3 e6 and try to play on the weakened d6 square. I think this is the direction I would look at if I were to play this Hyper-Accelerated Morra-Dragon as White.

Btw. Black can even meet 4.c3 with the waiting 4...Bg7, intending 5.Bc4 d3 or 5.cxd4 d5.
  

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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #23 - 05/26/11 at 03:19:43
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Stigma wrote on 05/26/11 at 03:00:41:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/26/11 at 02:52:19:
My opinion is that Black does not have a good alternative to entering the accepted Morra. I could be missing something, but I do not see a good way to transpose to a normal c3 Sicilian with 4..d5. If 5.ed5 Qd5, Black has prematurely captured on d4, and if 5..Nf6 6.c4 seems to be a problem. 4..Nf6 and 4..Qa5 look dicey to me. 4..d3 looks playable but very comfortable for White (+/= perhaps). 4..Bg7 is probably the best declined variation aiming for 5.cxd4 d5, transposing to known c3 Sicilian theory (a recommendation from Dzindzichashvili); however, it's not clear to me that Black has a better alternative to accepting the gambit after 5.Bc4!?. If this is the case, then even if Black likes that line of the c3 Sicilian, he still should be prepared for the accepted Morra. The good news is that Langrock's book on Morra considers the fianchetto variation an underrated option for Black, recommending the line (by transposition) 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bg7 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.e5 Nxe5 as the safest way to reach an equal position. However, these lines in the Morra can be very dangerous, especially if you are not accurate and do not know the theory. Perhaps 4.c3 is not the most theoretically challenging, but it could be very dangerous in practice against an unprepared opponent.


The ...d3 lines (i.e. 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 d3) look very sensible for an Accelerated Dragon player. If White has a theoretical advantage there I don't know where, and the Maroczy position type is not at all similar to what most Morra players want.

If White delays c3 with 4.Bc4, why not simply 4...Bg7 5.c3 d3? White could delay c3 even further with 5.0-0, but Black has waiting moves like ...Nc6 and ...d6 so that's not too big a problem.


5.Bc4 d3 seems to lose a tempo for White in comparison to 4..d3, so that looks like a reasonable option. I am a little averse to 4..d3 though, as I have the impression that it's a solid line for White that many Morra players are happy to play as it gives reasonable chances for kingside play. Maybe it's nothing to be afraid of, but there are a few differences from a normal Maroczy that concern me. Honestly, I have not examined it carefully, as it was not a defense I even considered playing against the Morra.
  
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #22 - 05/26/11 at 03:06:37
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Not by Palkovi and I agree. Results in practice haven't been particularly good either.
But perhaps I am wrong and does White have an edge after 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d3 4.Bxd3 Nc6 5.c4 g6 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.0-0 d6 8.h3 Nf6 9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be3 Nd7 11.Qd2 Nc5 12.Bh6 (12.Rac1 f5 13.exf5 Nxd3 14.Qxd3 Bxf5 = Babula) Bxh6 13.Qxh6 f6.
But I can't say I'm impressed. I'd prefer 6.Nc3 Bg7 7.Nge2 d6 8.0-0 Nf6 9.f3 0-0 10.Be3 or even 9.b3 0-0 10.Bb2.

What I really would like to play is a GPA setup without 5.c4, but with f4, Nf3, Qe1, Qh4 etcetera. Alas an early ...d5 seems to spoil it.
  

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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #21 - 05/26/11 at 03:00:41
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/26/11 at 02:52:19:
My opinion is that Black does not have a good alternative to entering the accepted Morra. I could be missing something, but I do not see a good way to transpose to a normal c3 Sicilian with 4..d5. If 5.ed5 Qd5, Black has prematurely captured on d4, and if 5..Nf6 6.c4 seems to be a problem. 4..Nf6 and 4..Qa5 look dicey to me. 4..d3 looks playable but very comfortable for White (+/= perhaps). 4..Bg7 is probably the best declined variation aiming for 5.cxd4 d5, transposing to known c3 Sicilian theory (a recommendation from Dzindzichashvili); however, it's not clear to me that Black has a better alternative to accepting the gambit after 5.Bc4!?. If this is the case, then even if Black likes that line of the c3 Sicilian, he still should be prepared for the accepted Morra. The good news is that Langrock's book on Morra considers the fianchetto variation an underrated option for Black, recommending the line (by transposition) 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bg7 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.e5 Nxe5 as the safest way to reach an equal position. However, these lines in the Morra can be very dangerous, especially if you are not accurate and do not know the theory. Perhaps 4.c3 is not the most theoretically challenging, but it could be very dangerous in practice against an unprepared opponent.


The ...d3 lines (i.e. 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 d3) look very sensible for an Accelerated Dragon player. If White has a theoretical advantage there I don't know where, and the Maroczy position type is not at all similar to what most Morra players want.

If White delays c3 with 4.Bc4, why not simply 4...Bg7 5.c3 d3? White could delay c3 even further with 5.0-0, but Black has waiting moves like ...Nc6 and ...d6 so that's not too big a problem.
  

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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #20 - 05/26/11 at 02:52:19
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nimzo5 wrote on 05/25/11 at 01:23:17:
TopNotch- I am a bit confused by your post. Are you stating that 1. e4 c5 2.nf3 g6 3. d4 cxd4 4. c3 Smith Morra line is dangerous for Black?


My opinion is that Black does not have a good alternative to entering the accepted Morra. I could be missing something, but I do not see a good way to transpose to a normal c3 Sicilian with 4..d5. If 5.exd5 Qxd5, Black has prematurely captured on d4 in comparison to Ftacnik's recommended line, and if 5..Nf6 6.c4 seems to be a problem. 4..Nf6 and 4..Qa5 look dicey to me. 4..d3 looks playable but very comfortable for White (+/= perhaps). 4..Bg7 is probably the best declined variation aiming for 5.cxd4 d5, transposing to known c3 Sicilian theory (a recommendation from Dzindzichashvili); however, it's not clear to me that Black has a better alternative to accepting the gambit after 5.Bc4!?. If this is the case, then even if Black likes that line of the c3 Sicilian, he still should be prepared for the accepted Morra. The good news is that Langrock's book on the Morra considers the fianchetto variation to be an underrated option for Black, recommending the line (by transposition) 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bg7 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.e5 Nxe5 as the safest way to reach an equal position. However, these lines in the Morra can be very dangerous, especially if you are not accurate and do not know the theory. Perhaps 4.c3 is not the most theoretically challenging, but it could be very dangerous in practice against an unprepared opponent.

I think 2..g6 is riskier than the other mainstream second moves, but I also think that is part of its appeal. Maybe 3.Bc4 (edit: I did not mean 4.Bc4) is the safest "anti-Dragon theory" move White has. I think it's a good choice against players who do not like to face the Dragon. The cost of this move order is that you need to know a few sharp sidelines, so that you're not the one being tricked as TopNotch points out.
  
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #19 - 05/25/11 at 22:35:42
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I thought that h3 plus Nf3 was standardly thought to be +=.
  
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #18 - 05/25/11 at 22:32:55
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I would rather say that it's an improved version for Black with the Knight on f3. In any case White is doing pretty well.
After 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d3 4.Bxd3 Nc6 5.c4 g6 6.Nc3 Bg7 a setup with f2-f3 is usually thought to give White better prospects of an opening edge.
  

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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #17 - 05/25/11 at 10:58:57
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d3 might have some point actually because doesn't white then almost 'have' to go c4 etc? Of course awfully generous for normal people to let white get this from the Smith-Morra but suspect an accelerated dragon player should be happy enough.

Or is it a worse version somehow? The tempi seem broadly equivalent.
  
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Re: Any new Accelerated Dragon Book rumors out there?
Reply #16 - 05/25/11 at 10:14:47
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While I am not TopNotch, as I know Smith-Morra theory, the Fianchetto variation of accepted Morra gambit is genrerally thought to be good for white.
Perhaps black can reply d5 after c3? Or else play d3?
  
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