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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG (Read 54350 times)
Paddy
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #32 - 05/29/11 at 19:53:19
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Thanks for giving the pgn. If I find anything that might be of interest to this discussion, I shall return!

It is curious that engines also seem to prefer the at-first-sght unappealing (because Ponziani-like?) 8 Qa4.

PS First impression - it's chaos!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #31 - 05/29/11 at 18:43:52
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[quote author=0E3F3A3A275E0 link=1305856339/30#30 date=1306672603]
An impressive discussion between two real experts - thanks chaps![/quote]
[i]The [/i]expert here is my adversary aka [b]Thomas Johansson,[/b] Sweden, who wrote not only a book on the King's Knight Gambit, but also another on the King's Bishop Gambit, both from White's point of view. Quite a paradox.

Not a paradox in the sense of [b]"The Café de la Régence is the meeting-place of Scandinavians and chess-players"[/b] (Johnson's Universal Cyclopedia, vol. 6, p. 442, New York 1895). A paradox nonetheless for those familiar with the coffeehouse joke: [b]"I like to accept the King's Knight Gambit, but decline the King's Bishop Gambit."[/b]

The Hanstein Gambit belongs to both parts of the KG. You'd assume it might be an ideal weapon for someone who knows so much about both 3.Bc4 and 3.Nf3.

[pgn][Event "[Stefan Bücker]"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hanstein Gambit"]
[Black "sound or not?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C38"]
[Annotator ",Stefan"]
[PlyCount "85"]
[EventDate "1990.10.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 h6 5. O-O g5 6. d4 Bg7 7. c3 Nc6 8. Qa4 {
Alexander McDonnell 1828} 8... Bd7 9. Qb3 Qe7 10. Qxb7 Rb8 11. Qa6 {
The solid choice, with roughly equal chances.} (11. Qxc7 $5 Rc8 12. Qb7 Na5 13.
Bxf7+ Qxf7 14. Qa6 Nc6 15. Na3 {The following complications are a jungle. I
don't claim equality for White, the analysis only gives some sample lines. It
looks like another high-risk system, like the Muzio. And like the Muzio, it
might score well in practice.} 15... Qe7 16. Re1 Nb8 17. Qb7 (17. Qxa7 g4 18.
Qa5 gxf3 19. Qh5+ Qf7 20. Qxf3 Ne7 21. Bxf4 Nbc6 22. Nb5 O-O 23. Rf1 Ne5 24.
Qe2 Qc4 25. Qxc4+ Nxc4 26. Nxd6 Rxf4 27. Nxc8 Rxf1+ 28. Rxf1 Nxc8) 17... Kf7 (
17... Nf6 18. e5) 18. Qb3+ (18. e5) (18. Qxa7 Nf6 19. e5 Nc6 20. exf6 Qxe1+ 21.
Nxe1 Nxa7 22. fxg7) 18... Be6 19. Qb5 (19. Qb4) 19... a6 (19... Qd8 20. h4 g4
21. Qh5+ Kf8 22. Qg6 Qd7 23. Nh2 Nf6 (23... d5 $5 24. Bxf4 Nf6 25. Rf1 Kg8 26.
Be5 Bf7 27. Qxg7+ Kxg7 28. Rxf6 Kf8 29. exd5 Rh7 30. c4) 24. Bxf4 d5 25. Rf1
Kg8 26. Be5 Bf7 27. Qxg7+ Kxg7 28. Rxf6 Kf8 29. exd5 Rh7 30. c4) 20. Qd3 Qa7
21. g3 fxg3 22. hxg3 Nd7 23. Be3 Qb7 24. Rf1 Ngf6 25. e5 Qxb2 26. exf6 Nxf6 27.
c4 Bh3 28. Nc2 (28. Nd2) 28... Bxf1 29. Rxf1 Rhf8 30. Bc1 Qb8 31. Bxg5 hxg5 32.
Nxg5+ Kg8 33. Ne3 Qa7 34. Ne6 Qd7 35. Nxf8 Rxf8 36. Nf5 d5 37. cxd5 Nxd5 38.
Nxg7 Qxg7 39. Rxf8+ Kxf8 40. Qf5+ Nf6 41. Qc8+ Kf7 42. Qb7+ Kg8 43. Qa8+ Kh7
44. Qxa6 $11) 11... Nf6 12. Nbd2 O-O 13. h3 Rb6 (13... Rfe8 14. Re1 Rb6 15. Qa3
d5 16. Qxe7 Rxe7 17. exd5 Rxe1+ 18. Nxe1 Ne7 19. Nd3 Nfxd5 20. Nf3 $14 {
... based on "I'd rather have White"}) 14. Qa3 Nxe4 15. Re1 d5 16. Qxe7 Nxe7
17. Nxe4 dxc4 (17... dxe4 18. Rxe4 Nf5 19. Re1 Re8 20. Rxe8+ Bxe8 21. b3 $5 Bb5
22. Bxb5 Rxb5 23. Rb1 Rb6 24. Bd2 $11) 18. Nexg5 Re8 19. Ne4 Nd5 20. Nc5 $1 ({
Can I take these moves back? =>} 20. Kf2 $6 Bc6 21. a4 $2 ({
my failed attempt to improve upon analysis by TalJechin:} 21. Nc5 Rxe1 22. Kxe1
h5 23. Ke2 f6 24. a4 a5 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Nh4 Bh6 27. Ke1 Rb8 28. Kf1 Ne3+ 29.
Bxe3 fxe3 30. Rb1 Rg8 31. Re1 Bf4 32. Re2 Rg5 33. g4 hxg4 34. hxg4 Rxg4 35. Ng2
Bxg2+ 36. Rxg2 f5 37. Re2 Rh4 38. Kg2 Bg5 39. Kf3 Ke7 40. Na6 f4 41. Rg2 Kf6
42. Ke4 Rh3 43. Re2 Kg6 44. Nxc7 f3 45. Rxe3 f2) 21... a5 22. Ra2 Rbb8 $1 {
=+ TalJechin, which is really convincing}) 20... Rxe1+ 21. Nxe1 Bc6 22. Nc2 Ba8
(22... Rb8 23. Na6 Re8 24. Kf1) 23. Ne1 {Okay, admittedly this is not my most
creative analysis ever. With some exchanges, White goes into a drawish ending.
If White wants more, he should look elsewhere.} 23... h5 (23... Bc6 24. Nc2 $11
) 24. Nd7 Rd6 (24... Re6 25. Kf2 $11) (24... Rg6 25. Kf2 $11) 25. Ne5 Bxe5 26.
dxe5 Rb6 27. b3 Nxc3 28. Bd2 Ne4 29. Bxf4 cxb3 30. axb3 c5 31. Rxa7 Bd5 32. Ra3
Bxb3 33. Nf3 Bd5 34. Nd2 c4 35. Nxe4 Bxe4 36. Rg3+ Kf8 37. Kf2 Rb2+ 38. Ke3
Bxg2 39. Kd4 Ke7 40. Kxc4 Ke6 41. Re3 Bf1+ 42. Kc3 Rb5 43. h4 $11 *
[/pgn]
  

Hanstein_Gambit.pgn ( 3 KB | Downloads )
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Paddy
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #30 - 05/29/11 at 12:36:43
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An impressive discussion between two real experts - thanks chaps!

But if you would like others to fully appreciate what you are saying, and perhaps to contribute to the debate, it would be a real help if you could add the pgn of the analysis. Pretty please?  :)
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #29 - 05/29/11 at 10:33:20
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Hmm, after sacrificing one's structure for activity and bishop pair then it's not logical to give away the bishop pair so easily - at least not without getting anything in return.

After 22.Ra2 black should play 22...Rbb8 e.g: 23.Ne5 Ba8 24.Nf3
[i](24.Nd2 c5!; 24.Nc5 drops a pawn to 24...Bxe5 25.Rxe5 (25.dxe5 Rb6!) Rxe5 26.dxe5 Re8 27.Nd7 Re6 28.Nf6+ Nxf6 29.exf6 Rxf6) [/i]
24....h5 =+

I'll take a look at 11.Qxc7 - if black has to accept a messy position then it's probably a better shot than suffering in the endgame after 17...dxc4!


Btw, have you had any contact with the Jon Sveinsson from the ML in the first game I put here? A few years ago he claimed to have found the refutation of the Muzio - he even showed it to me at my chessclub's Christmas party (though the Muzio has never interested me so I soon forgot it - it was something about choosing between two set-ups depending on white's choice...) and added something about easily beating a GM on the net with it...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #28 - 05/29/11 at 06:10:01
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Correction: said book was written by William Greenwood Walker (not George Walker).

Howard Staunton (1860) uttered doubt whether 8.Qa4 was the best move. McDonnell used it in 1828, in a blindfold game, but prefered 8.Na3 in a real match later. That said, 8.Qa4 is interesting, and if it leads to =, it would be a signal that the Gambit deserves more study.



Postscript: Can a wealthy Irish chess patriot please start an action committee "Exhume Alexander McDonnell"? No painting or portrait of McDonnell has ever been found. Forensic experts are busy working on Oetzi, neanderthals and medieval VIPs, why not a chess hero? When the work is done, the skull could serve as a nice farewell gift for Mr. Ilyumshinov for all what he has done for FIDE. It would look great on his desk. 
« Last Edit: 05/29/11 at 07:47:53 by Stefan Buecker »  
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TalJechin
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #27 - 05/28/11 at 14:53:48
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And here are the result from the Borg jury. I could of course have spent even more time on it, but it's Barca-United in a few hours and besides, I suspect you may want to replace 13.h3 with something else.


  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #26 - 05/28/11 at 10:09:19
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[quote]Good man, that McDonnell. He already knew high-class stuff, like 1.e4 e6 2.f4. - Did you notice, by the way, that the game given by ChessBase, Alexander McDonnell - NN, sim Edinburgh 1839, has a little problem: Alexander McDonnell died in 1835. How did they do this?

Henk Smout gave the hint (thanks!): the moves are right, but not the data. The game was played on December 20th, 1828, in William Lewis' house. McDonnell won (blindfolded) against Thomas Herbert Worrall. Source: George Walker: A Selection of Games at Chess, Actually Played in London ... , London 1836, pp.37-38.[/quote]

Well, he could have played via a medium, like Maroczy! :))

Anyway, that explains why I also had the 1828 game in my database - but with black being "Unknown" - one of the most unlucky players in the history of chess.

And nice that someone found a use for that book. That title must rate among the nerdiest in chess history! :)

Anyway, 13.h3!? looks quite reasonable, though it breaks at least a couple of thumb rules.  I'll see what the Dark Side can come up with.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #25 - 05/27/11 at 22:37:08
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I'd suggest 11. Qa6 (forget about 11.Qxc7) 11...Nf6 12.Nbd2 (the move order 12.h3?! Nxe4 may be too optimistic) 12...0-0 (your proposal; if 12...Ng4 13.Nb3 looks fine) 13.h3! (a bit unusual, but in the given position it seems possible to keep the bishop on its strong square c4, so why play 13.Bd3?) 13...Rfe8 14.Re1 Rb6 15.Qa3 d5 16.Qxe7 Rxe7 17.exd5 Rxe1+ 18.Nxe1 and White has a slight edge in the ending.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #24 - 05/27/11 at 21:36:32
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TalJechin wrote on 05/26/11 at 17:11:17:
Quote:
In my opinion the Hanstein Gambit is just as sound as the Kieseritzky Gambit.


And how sound do you think the Kieseritzky is nowadays? Wink

Sound enough. Few people believe that White can win by force, so imo an occasional draw isn't a cause for panic. More important is that White can vary between 4-5 correct systems, so that he always can choose: play the safest line (if a draw would be OK), the best line or the "must-win" repertoire. That's what Spanish and Scottish can offer, and we need similar options in the KG. Neglecting the Hanstein doesn't make sense. Those who defend the KG classically must tremble in fear whether they'll face the Hanstein, the Kieseritzky, the Muzio, the Philidor or whatever Gambit. Nowadays a KG player who doesn't vary his systems is no threat at all. But if opponents see all kinds of lines in your games: Kieseritzky, Hanstein with 8.Qa4, with 8.Na3, with 8.b4 (Steinitz), with g3 or the Philidor Gambit (h4), Quaade, Salvio etc., the chances are good that they'll rather avoid the classical system completely.

TalJechin wrote on 05/26/11 at 17:11:17:
As for 8.Qa4 I thought you would know (and be sure to point out) it was played by Macdonnell already in 1839, but apparently not.

Urk.  Embarrassed   Embarrassed   Embarrassed 
Good man, that McDonnell. He already knew high-class stuff, like 1.e4 e6 2.f4. - Did you notice, by the way, that the game given by ChessBase, Alexander McDonnell - NN, sim Edinburgh 1839, has a little problem: Alexander McDonnell died in 1835. How did they do this?

Henk Smout gave the hint (thanks!): the moves are right, but not the data. The game was played on December 10th, 1828, in William Lewis' house. McDonnell won (blindfolded) against "W......". Source: George Walker: A Selection of Games at Chess, Actually Played in London, by the late Alexander McDonnell Esqu., the best English Player, with his principal Contemporaries, including the whole of the Games played by Mons. De La Bourdonnais and Mr. McDonnell. With an Appendix, containing three Games played by Mons. Des Chapelles and Mr. Lewis, in 1821.  ... , London 1836, pp.37-38.

(Edit: Correcting the last paragraph; corrections in bold print. Because of the historical importance of the book - the McDonnell vs Labourdonnais-Matches greatly inspired the Berlin plejades - it seemed appropriate to give the title in full)

TalJechin wrote on 05/26/11 at 17:11:17:
Anyway, I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG, except that it feels slightly uncomfortable.

After a fresh look today, I'd probably prefer to give the b-pawn instead of the f-pawn, i.e: 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8 11.Qa6 etc

[...] It's simply not the kind of position I'd be hoping for as white with 2.f4!?

Will analyze it a bit (i.e. your analysis in the other post). There is also 11.Qxc7 Rc8 12.Qb7 Na5 13.Bxf7+ Qxf7 14.Qa6 Nc6 15.Na3. The PC doesn't like it, but if White can get a "stable" ending (preferably with an exchange of queens) with a bunch of pawns on the q-side for the bishop, it might be an idea.
« Last Edit: 05/28/11 at 19:13:24 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #23 - 05/27/11 at 09:42:34
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[quote author=5D5E72100 link=1305856339/22#22 date=1306456482][quote author=586D6046696F6465620C0 link=1305856339/21#21 date=1306429877]I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG[/quote]
1) "looks odd, but may be the best option as White can battle on in a level position."
2) Schulze-Koch, IECG Email 2002, unclear/roughly equal.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reminder. It seems I've changed my mind here then. Maybe the following games weren't available to me or I wasn't looking at Qa4 from a black perspective or perhaps most likely: the engines are stronger nowadays! Here's something to illustrate my current view of the situation:

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.05.26"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Macdonell's 8.Qa4"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C38"]
[PlyCount "94"]
[EventType "corr"]
[SourceDate "2010.10.13"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 h6 5. O-O g5 6. d4 Bg7 7. c3 Nc6 8. Qa4
Bd7 9. Qb3 Qe7 10. Qxb7 Rb8 11. Qa6 Nf6 12. d5 (12. Nbd2 Rb6 (12... O-O $142
13. Bd3 Rfe8 14. d5 Rb6 15. Qa3 Nxd5 (15... Nd8 16. Qxa7 Nxd5 17. exd5 Qe3+ 18.
Kh1 Qxd3 19. Qxc7 Rb7 20. Qc4) 16. Nc4 (16. exd5 Qe3+ 17. Rf2 Qxd3 18. dxc6
Bxc6 $40) 16... Nf6 17. Nxb6 axb6 {and black seems better, e.g:} 18. Qb3 (18.
Bd2 Ne5 19. Nxe5 Qxe5 20. Qb4 Bc6) (18. Re1 $2 g4 19. Nd4 Nxd4 20. cxd4 Nh5 21.
e5 Qh4 $40) 18... Ne5 19. Nxe5 Qxe5 20. Qc4 (20. Re1 $4 Qc5+ 21. Kh1 Ng4) 20...
Nxe4) 13. Qa3 d5 14. Qxe7+ Nxe7 15. exd5 Nfxd5 16. Nb3 O-O $13 17. Re1 Bf5 18.
Bd2 Rd8 19. Ne5 Ng6 20. Nd3 Nh4 21. Ndc5 Nf6 22. Re7 Ne8 23. Rxf7 Kh8 24. Bd3
Bxd3 25. Nxd3 Kg8 26. Re7 f3 27. g3 Ng6 28. Re3 g4 29. Nbc5 Nd6 30. b3 Nf5 31.
Re4 h5 32. Rae1 Bf6 33. Ne6 Rd7 34. Ndf4 Nxf4 35. Rxf4 Kf7 36. Nc5 Rd5 37. Re5
Rxe5 38. dxe5 Be7 39. Nd7 Rc6 40. Rxf5+ Ke6 41. Rxh5 Kxd7 42. h3 Bc5+ 43. Kf1
gxh3 44. Rxh3 Rg6 45. b4 Bb6 46. a4 a6 47. Rh7+ Kc6 48. a5 Ba7 49. Rh6 {
1-0 Divanbaigyzand,M (2445)-Ledford,S (2072)/ICCF 2005/UltraCorr2}) (12. b4 Rb6
(12... Nxe4 13. Bd5 Rb6 14. Qd3 f5 15. Re1 $140 Kd8) 13. Qa3 O-O $6 (13... Nxe4
$1) 14. b5 Nd8 15. e5 Ne8 16. Re1 g4 17. exd6 Qf6 18. Ne5 Rxd6 19. Rf1 Ne6 20.
Bxe6 Qxe6 21. Nxd7 Qxd7 22. Bxf4 Rxd4 23. cxd4 Qxd4+ 24. Kh1 Qxa1 25. Qxa7 Qb2
26. a4 Qe2 27. Rc1 Bb2 28. Rg1 Qe4 29. Rf1 Qc4 30. Nd2 Qe6 31. Bxc7 Qd7 32. b6
Nxc7 33. Qxc7 Qxc7 34. bxc7 Rc8 35. Nc4 Bg7 36. Rxf7 Kxf7 37. Nd6+ Ke6 38. Nxc8
Kd7 39. Nd6 Kxc7 40. Ne8+ {1-0 Schwarhofer,C (2227)-Diermair,A (2388)/Leoben
AUT 2008/The Week in Chess 715}) 12... Rb6 (12... Nd8 13. Qxa7 Rb7 14. Qd4 O-O
15. Nbd2 g4 16. Ne1 Nh5 17. Qd3 f5 18. Nc2 Nf7 19. exf5 Ne5 20. Qe2 Bxf5 21.
Nd4 Bg6 (21... Bd7 22. a4 Qh4 23. Ba6 Rbb8 24. Qe1 Qxe1 25. Rxe1 Ra8 26. Bb5
Bxb5 27. Nxb5 Nd3 28. Rd1 Rf7 29. Nb3 Nxc1 30. Rdxc1 g3 31. N3d4 Nf6 32. c4 Ne4
33. a5 Be5 34. h3 Nf2 35. Ra3 f3 36. b4 fxg2 37. Kxg2 {
1-0 Leone,C-Beckman/corr 1991/KG}) (21... f3 $5) 22. Nc6 $6 Qh4 23. Ba6 Rb6 24.
Nxe5 Bxe5 25. Bc4 f3 26. gxf3 Nf4 27. Qe1 Nh3+ 28. Kh1 g3 29. Ne4 Rxf3 {
0-1 Kremer,H-Hesselbarth,K/GER-ch qgC29 corr9395 1993/CR97-93}) (12... Ne5 13.
Nxe5 (13. Qxa7 Nxf3+ 14. gxf3 O-O 15. b3 Bh3 16. Re1 Ra8 17. Qf2 Nd7 18. Bb2
Ne5 19. Nd2 g4 20. fxg4 Qg5 21. Be2 f5 22. exf5 Bxg4 23. Kh1 Qxf5 24. c4 Bxe2
25. Qxe2 f3 26. Qe4 Nd3 27. Qxf5 Rxf5 28. Bxg7 Nxe1 29. Rxe1 f2 30. Rf1 Kxg7
31. a4 Raf8 32. a5 Kf6 33. Ne4+ Ke5 {
0-1 Crawley,A-Mueller,K/http://correspondencechess.co 1999}) 13... Qxe5 (13...
dxe5 14. Qxa7 O-O 15. b3 Nxe4 16. Ba3 Qd8 17. d6 Nxd6 18. Rd1 Bg4 19. Rd5 Be6
20. Rc5 Nxc4 {
0-1 Zelic,M (2305)-Sulava,N (2540)/Sibenik CRO 2009/The Week in Chess 777}) 14.
Qxa7 O-O 15. Nd2 c5 16. dxc6 Bxc6 17. Bxf7+ Kh8 18. Bg6 Bxe4 19. Nxe4 Nxe4 20.
Re1 d5 21. Qd7 f3 22. gxf3 Rxf3 23. Bxe4 dxe4 24. Qg4 Qc5+ 25. Kh1 Rbf8 26. Qg1
Qb5 27. a4 Qb7 28. Be3 Qxb2 29. Bd4 e3 30. Rab1 Qc2 31. Bxe3 Bxc3 32. Bd4+ {
1-0 Leone,C-Van Aalzum,J/corr 1988/OM Corr}) 13. Qa3 Ne5 14. Nxe5 dxe5 (14...
Qxe5 15. Nd2 O-O 16. Re1 Ng4 17. Bd3 Ne3 18. Nf3 Qf6 19. Bxe3 fxe3 20. Rxe3 g4
21. Nd2 Qg5 22. Rae1 Be5 23. g3 h5 24. Qxa7 Rxb2 25. Nc4 h4 26. Nxb2 {
1-0 D Ettorre,R (1928)-Roncagliolo,M (1748)/FICGS 2009/OM Corr}) 15. Qxe7+ Kxe7
16. Bd3 c6 17. c4 cxd5 18. cxd5 Rc8 19. Na3 (19. Nc3 Bf8 20. Rb1 Kd8 21. Bd2
Bc5+ 22. Kh1 Bd4 $17) 19... Rb4 20. Nc2 Rxe4 21. b3 (21. Bxe4 Nxe4 $17) 21...
Kd6 22. Rd1 Kxd5 23. Ba6+ Ke6 24. Bxc8 Bxc8 25. Ba3 Re2 26. Rd6+ Kf5 27. Ne1
Ng4 28. Kf1 Re4 29. Rc6 Be6 30. h3 Ne3+ 31. Kf2 g4 32. Bc5 g3+ 33. Kg1 Nd5 34.
Nf3 Re2 35. Nh4+ Kg5 36. Nf3+ Kg6 37. Re1 Rc2 38. a3 Nc3 39. Rd6 e4 40. Rd2
Bxb3 41. Rxc2 Bxc2 42. Nd4 Bd3 43. Bxa7 Bxd4+ 44. Bxd4 Ne2+ 45. Rxe2 Bxe2 46.
Be5 Kf5 47. Bd6 h5 {
0-1 Koudelka,I (2076)-Sveinsson,J (2000)/SEMI Email 2000/MegaCorr3}

[/pgn]
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #22 - 05/27/11 at 00:34:42
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[quote author=586D6046696F6465620C0 link=1305856339/21#21 date=1306429877]I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG[/quote]
1) "looks odd, but may be the best option as White can battle on in a level position."
2) Schulze-Koch, IECG Email 2002, unclear/roughly equal.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #21 - 05/26/11 at 17:11:17
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[quote]In my opinion the Hanstein Gambit is just as sound as the Kieseritzky Gambit.[/quote]

And how sound do you think the Kieseritzky is nowadays? ;)

As for 8.Qa4 I thought you would know (and be sure to point out) it was played by Macdonnell already in 1839, but apparently not.

Anyway, I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG, except that it feels slightly uncomfortable.

After a fresh look today, I'd probably prefer to give the b-pawn instead of the f-pawn, i.e: 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8 11.Qa6 etc

After black has castled, his king is safe and he can play in the centre [i]and [/i]on the kingside. White has to safeguard pawn e4 and may eventually get some kind of chances on the queenside, but black's chances seem much better to me in the long term (as it seems much easier to improve black's position than white's), even if the machines would say it's equal at this point.

It's simply not the kind of position I'd be hoping for as white with 2.f4!?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #20 - 05/25/11 at 22:26:34
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In my opinion the Hanstein Gambit is just as sound as the Kieseritzky Gambit. In the thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1087669402/23#23 Glenn Snow had suggested the interesting 8.Qa4!?. And 8.b4 cannot be worse for White either.


  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #19 - 05/25/11 at 12:42:25
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Dragonslayer wrote on 05/25/11 at 10:50:30:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/24/11 at 18:00:38:
I'm left wondering about about the Quaade Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3) on account of 4...Nc6 transposing to the Vienna Gambit, where White's choices are the Hanstein Gambit (5.Bc4), the Pierce Gambit (5.d4) and the Hamppe-Allgaier (5.h4 g4 6.Ne5), and White is struggling to demonstrate full compensation in those lines.  4.Bc4 is neutralised by the Hanstein Gambit and while the Kieseritzky (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5) gives full compensation I don't see how White generates many winning chances after 5...Qe7.  It'll certainly be interesting to see what Shirov has in mind against 3...g5- if his idea is 4.Nc3, either the 4...Nc6 transposition hasn't been considered or White must have an improvement there somewhere.

Yes White has an improvement (not one of your choices). It was debated in this forum some years ago.


The Hamppe-Allgaier was looking quite good for White at one stage (5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Bb4 or 8...Nf6 allow White full compensation- Brabo tried to prove an edge for Black with no success) but Brabo then "put the boot on the other foot" with 8...f3!, when despite numerous attempts I was unable to demonstrate full compensation against accurate defence.  I also found that MNb mentioned 8...f3! as far back as 2005:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1133354340/11#11
and here's the thread where Brabo put the line under a cloud:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1208413606/0

I can't remember the details but I remember finding improvements for Black over Tim Harding's suggested draw in his Pierce Gambit article, so I don't trust 5.d4 at all.

I had a look in the archives and found this thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1217111507/31#31 It seemed that 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.g3!? wasn't quite working out for White- have I missed another thread where someone found something for White?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #18 - 05/25/11 at 10:53:55
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MNb wrote on 05/24/11 at 19:57:38:
There is also 4.d4 with the same idea Bg7 5.Nc3.

To satisfy everybody I will both give the score of a game and use the flash option. It's not much of an effort.

Spielmann,R - Cohn,E [C37]
Gambiettoernooi Abbazia/Opatija (7), 1912

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 d5 5.exd5 g4 6.Qe2+ Qe7 7.Ne5 f3 8.gxf3 gxf3 9.Qxf3 f6 10.Bb5+ Kd8 11.0-0 Nh6 12.Qxf6 Rg8+ 13.Kh1 Bh3 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Rxf8 Rxf8 16.Bg5+ Rf6 17.Nc3 1-0


4...d5 is interesting (4.Nc3 avoids this option) but imo 4...g4 is more testing. This was also debated earlier.
  
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