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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG (Read 24527 times)
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Re: C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #62 - 09/03/11 at 13:31:20
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thx Paddy.
Imho 3...h6 is not necessary bad but Alekseev did not make the most of his move-order and in my opinion, played an inaccurate 6th move especially against Shirov.

After 1.e4,e5 2.f4,exf 3.Nf3,h6 4.Nc3,d6 5.4,g5 6.g3
6...Bg7?! was not a wise choice against Shirov
forcing Nightingales discovery 7.gxf,g4 8.Rg1!
(Nightingale - Ruggeri Laderchi, corr., 2001)

Much more sensible is 6...hxg3! (while 6...g4 would probably have transposed to the Quaade Gambit proper)
When a good example is Grischuk - Lunev, Moscow, 1999
  
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Re: C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #61 - 09/01/11 at 16:45:38
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Shirov has some interesting and amusing things to say in his comments to his game vs Alekseev in CBM 143.

If I have undertoos him correctly, basically he thinks that 3...h6 is just bad but after 3...g5 White must still fight for equality. He had done some preparation of 3...g5 4 Nc3 just before the game, but kept finding fresh resources for Black after 4...Nc6, so had decided to play 4 h4 and was very relieved when Alekseev played 3...h6.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #60 - 06/25/11 at 03:55:16
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Gambiteer wrote on 06/22/11 at 21:00:53:
Curiously, d5 is a recurring theme for the computer.

Many thanks. I have tried your proposal d4-d5 in various move-orders. White seems to get a fully playable position. Imo 14.Nbd2 should now be considered as the main line. The same move was played, btw, as a reaction to 13...Qb6, in Zvjaginsev,V-Akopian,V, Rijeka CRO 2010. Which doesn't mean much, since Qb6 invites 14.Nbd2. Still, Mr. Z. might have planned 13...Qc7 14.Nbd2, who knows...



  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #59 - 06/22/11 at 21:00:53
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/18/11 at 20:14:08:
Gambiteer, an interesting idea which I'll study. White had intended to get his a1 rook to e1, a plan which you are spoiling. What do you think about my second proposal (in reply #20) 14.Nbd2?


It's an interesting move. If I was going to play the 8.Qa4 line, I think I'd be inclined to play 14.Nbd2 and I'd give serious consideration to the intriguing 15.b4 cxd4 16.cxd4 g4 17.Bb2 gxf3 18.Rac1 sacrifice outlined in your earlier diagram.

In looking at the 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 positions with the computer, I've noticed that our silicon friends seem hell bent on white moving d5 which is not a move that appeals to me even if it does carry with it a certain logic. The computer apparently wants to lock the pawn structure in order to make it easier for white to attack the backward d6 pawn with Nc4 despite the fact that ...b5 rains on the parade.

Here's an example that preempts ...b5:

14.Nbd2 Ne7 15.Qb3+ Kg6 16.d5 Kh7 17.a4

Another example where the computer prefers d5 but for different reasons:

8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 10.Bxf7+ Ke7 11.Qa3 Kxf7 12.Qxa5 c5 13.Qa3 Qc7 14.Qb3+ Kg6 15.d5 Nf6 16.Qc2 Kf7 17.c4 =/+

Curiously, d5 is a recurring theme for the computer.
  

-Roy
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #58 - 06/18/11 at 20:14:08
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Gambiteer, an interesting idea which I'll study. White had intended to get his a1 rook to e1, a plan which you are spoiling. What do you think about my second proposal (in reply #20) 14.Nbd2?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #57 - 06/18/11 at 18:59:34
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More analysis of the 9...Na5 variation with a new move for black. White's prospects look grim.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #56 - 06/17/11 at 21:33:27
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/15/11 at 19:31:27:
I've read this fascinating thread from start to finish, and the one thing I find missing is any serious analysis of the initial game!

The game was annotated, albeit not in much depth, at Chessvibes.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #55 - 06/17/11 at 08:28:33
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Sorry, Stefan, I didn't even realise I misspelled your name in my earlier post.  Embarrassed
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #54 - 06/16/11 at 16:36:04
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/15/11 at 19:31:27:
I've read this fascinating thread from start to finish, and the one thing I find missing is any serious analysis of the initial game!

Shirov's moves in this game baffled me. Playing at blitz speed I can usually predict most of the moves and work out most of the rest. But this game was completely beyond me. I know, I could turn on my favorite silicon beast to find some answers, but I'd rather see what TJ, Paddy, Dragonslayer and Stephan have to say about it.

Study a KG won by White? Wouldn't that help the Dark Side?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #53 - 06/16/11 at 14:29:03
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[quote author=54577B190 link=1305856339/50#50 date=1308074114][quote author=5C6A797F77766B7479617D6A180 link=1305856339/49#49 date=1308061441]I got this idea from Santasiere's book where he plays g3 before castling.
If you also keep the bishop on f1 you gain another tempo for implementing the main plan.[/quote]
Can you give some details of that book? I stole the idea when I discovered some games of Johan Furhoff.
[/quote]
"The Romantic King's gambit" is a collection of commented games which Santasiere willed to Ken Smith after his death in 1977. It was published by Chess Digest in 1992 with some newer game fragments added. It is dated now, but if you can ignore the verbose it is still an inspiring work.
Santasiere's idea was to play g2-g3 in the Hanstein before castling. So he did play Bc4. My idea was to also postpone Bc4, since in some cases the bishop is better at b5, and it is more pressing to cover e3 with Bc1-e3, so White can indeed play Nc3 instead of the passive c3 (which you will read in some books [e.g. Estrin/Glazkov] is necessary). So white forces the issue on f4 before deciding where the whitefielder goes.
Of course, Johann Furhoff's games are worth studying and he should be credited with inventing the whole idea.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #52 - 06/15/11 at 23:45:23
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Just a few lines as examples of white's problems after 20...Qf6 or 20...Qe7

  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #51 - 06/15/11 at 19:31:27
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I've read this fascinating thread from start to finish, and the one thing I find missing is any serious analysis of the initial game!

Shirov's moves in this game baffled me. Playing at blitz speed I can usually predict most of the moves and work out most of the rest. But this game was completely beyond me. I know, I could turn on my favorite silicon beast to find some answers, but I'd rather see what TJ, Paddy, Dragonslayer and Stephan have to say about it.

(Adding the pgn file as text is a bit cumbersome, but certainly not too onerous. I'll try to remember to do that when I make future posts.)
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #50 - 06/14/11 at 18:55:14
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[quote author=5C6A797F77766B7479617D6A180 link=1305856339/49#49 date=1308061441]I got this idea from Santasiere's book where he plays g3 before castling.
If you also keep the bishop on f1 you gain another tempo for implementing the main plan.[/quote]
Can you give some details of that book? I stole the idea when I discovered some games of Johan Furhoff.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #49 - 06/14/11 at 15:24:01
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[quote author=12113D5F0 link=1305856339/34#34 date=1306758744][quote author=0134391F30363D3C3B550 link=1305856339/33#33 date=1306749960][i]If[/i] the Hanstein ideas with an early g3 and/or h4 would work, liberating Bc1, then the variation would be viable, but advancing on the queenside while behind in development is not how I want to play the KG.[/quote]
Pretty much my feeling as well. I happen to disagree with RJ Fischer here: if Black plays ...g4 and ...f3 White is fine. It's Alapin's ...Bh3 that troubles me. Hence the idea of playing g2-g3 with the Bishop still on f1 - so either 4.Nc3 or 4.d4.
[/quote]
I agree completely. Hundreds of hours searching for a solution to the Kieseritzky enigma and looking at the Greco-Philidor has led me to believe that g2-g3 is the right approach to break Black's pawn phalanx and hold on f4 in order to liberate the bishop on c1.
As I explain in the NIC yearbook 93 and 95, I think there is plenty of evidence (Alapin's ...Bh3) in favour of keeping the bishop on f1. I got this idea from Santasiere's book where he plays g3 before castling.
If you also keep the bishop on f1 you gain another tempo for implementing the main plan.

P.S. Just saw Spassky-Karpov, world tv cup 1982 on youtube, where Black closed the kingside with ...g4 and ...f3. I remember seeing this game in "Das neue Königsgambit" two decades ago being very impressed with Spassky's play, but seeing the man himself in action adds something else to it.

P.P.S.
It's good to have you back Stefan!
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #48 - 06/14/11 at 02:32:22
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Finally a ½point for the defence. 20...Qg7 21.Nf3! can be called close enough.

As I mentioned originally, Black has [i]a lot of[/i] promising moves, but if [i]I[/i] need to prove everything down to the Nalimov ending every time, it becomes an exercise in futility. Especially since not even you seem to believe 11.Qc7 is sound.

Anyway, the first in the list of possible improvements is probably 20...Qf6 and Black is winning again. :)
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #47 - 06/13/11 at 23:08:58
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TalJechin wrote on 06/12/11 at 22:54:01:
Quote:
(b) 30...g4 could be stronger, but again 31.a4 Qe4 32.Rc3 Qxa4 33.g3 isn't hopeless.


Nothing is hopeless, the world might end before the king is mated for example, but in corr this is an easy win for Black, after 32...Re8 or 32...Be6. White might get all the way down to R vs R+B+h-pawn, it still wouldn't be a draw unless Black plays badly.


True, White is lost. This result proves (more or less) that 21.Nxe4? is too risky. So White has to be content with 21.Nf3 which I had given in reply #36 as an alternative.



  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #46 - 06/12/11 at 22:54:01
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Quote:
(b) 30...g4 could be stronger, but again 31.a4 Qe4 32.Rc3 Qxa4 33.g3 isn't hopeless.


Nothing is hopeless, the world might end before the king is mated for example, but in corr this is an easy win for Black, after 32...Re8 or 32...Be6. White might get all the way down to R vs R+B+h-pawn, it still wouldn't be a draw unless Black plays badly.

  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #45 - 06/12/11 at 20:33:00
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TalJechin wrote on 06/11/11 at 14:25:04:
Well, I'd still assume that black should be able to convert his two extra pawns in the long run even in that line, but following the rule of thumb for advancing pawns with different coloured bishops, i.e: 26...Qe6 27.d5 Qxd5 28.Be1 Rxf2 29.Qxf2 e3 seems like an easier win.

Here 30.Qe2 seems forced, and then Black can play:

(a) 30...gxh4 31.Bxh4 Rf7 32.Kh2 Be6 33.Rd1 Qe5 34.Rd8+ Kg7 35.Qf3 with many drawing chances, e.g. 35...Rc7 36.Rb8 Bd5 37.Qg4+ Kh7 38.Rd8 Be6 39.Qf3 Rc1 40.Rb8!?.

(b) 30...g4 could be stronger, but again 31.a4 Qe4 32.Rc3 Qxa4 33.g3 isn't hopeless.

TalJechin wrote on 06/11/11 at 14:25:04:
Btw, how bad is the Greco Philidor, 8.h4, these days? In the comments on Yoos-Hjartarsson they give some alternative moves as improvements "with compensation" but no one seems to have tried those improvements, so is white's king just too exposed in the long run?

I am more familiar with the kind of Greco-Philidor, where White plays h4 with his king still on e1, often the rooks are exchanged on the h-file. Anderssen-style... Yoos - Hjartarsson is interesting, but there is also the "old" 8...Qe7 instead of H.'s 8...Nf6. And in this concrete situation (with c3 already played and White's king on g1) Black could well play 8...Qf6 and go into an improved "Nordwalde Variation". None of these seems, from White's perspective, fully reliable to me, but it is not a field in which I have put much time.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #44 - 06/12/11 at 04:44:30
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/11/11 at 13:37:19:
In the first post of mine in this thread you'll see a link to an earlier "Hanstein Gambit" thread. We had already discussed 9...Na5 in some detail. Here I was refering to the line which formerly deemed critical to us. My present view about Na5 is something like: White's position looks a bit strange, but capturing the pawn f7 is probably worth the trouble. The Hanstein Gambit is all about pawn breaks: White gives a pawn for the better long-term prospects. And taking the pawn break f7-f5 out of the position is, in this respect, not a small achievement.


My apologies to both of you. I missed the diagram referenced above on my first pass through the thread.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #43 - 06/11/11 at 14:25:04
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Quote:
More precise: 26.h4 f3 27.d5 Qxd5 28.Qe3 Rf5 29.hxg5 hxg5 30.Be1 Rxa2 31.Rxa2 Qxa2 32.Bf2 and I don't think that Black can win.


Well, I'd still assume that black should be able to convert his two extra pawns in the long run even in that line, but following the rule of thumb for advancing pawns with different coloured bishops, i.e: 26...Qe6 27.d5 Qxd5 28.Be1 Rxf2 29.Qxf2 e3 seems like an easier win.

Quote:
No contact so far. If you have, by coincidence, his address, please give it to me via PM. I'd gladly send him Kaissiber issue #13 with Dr. Stock's large article on the Muzio.


I don't think I've seen him since that party, so he has probably moved back to Iceland.

Btw, how bad is the Greco Philidor, 8.h4, these days? In the comments on Yoos-Hjartarsson they give some alternative moves as improvements "with compensation" but no one seems to have tried those improvements, so is white's king just too exposed in the long run?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #42 - 06/11/11 at 13:45:24
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TalJechin wrote on 06/09/11 at 22:24:04:
I've been looking at 13...Re8 followed by Nf6-h5-g3, but White's position does have some venom, once the centre and q-side pawns finally start rolling. Black's chances lie mainly in waiting for white to chose the wrong set-up, which in engine blitz really pays off, as few engines have any idea how to play it. So, it's probably equalish after all, but with a surprising amount of practical winning chances for both sides. Especially if you're a patient counter-attacker.

I subscribe to your observation that there are fine winning chances for both sides. No doubt, this is one of the vintage King's Gambit stuff where White's King has to fight his full share of the battle.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #41 - 06/11/11 at 13:37:19
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TalJechin wrote on 06/08/11 at 14:11:37:
[...]frankly, I don't see how you can possibly still defend 11...Qc7?!

For example, in the line you give as equal, just replace the 'I hope Black gives me a tempo with 26...Kh7' with 26...Qe6.

There is no contradiction in saying that 11.Qxc7?! "has no theoretical merits" and still wondering whether Black must win. Nobody is eager to play for a draw only (I guess 80% draw, losses: 20%), but there is a "Remiszone" in chess.

You are probably right to criticize 26.Qa6?, after 26...Qe6! it seems lost for White. More precise: 26.h4 f3 27.d5 Qxd5 28.Qe3 Rf5 29.hxg5 hxg5 30.Be1 Rxa2 31.Rxa2 Qxa2 32.Bf2 and I don't think that Black can win.

Gambiteer wrote on 06/11/11 at 05:00:33:
In the 8. Qa4 line isn't 9...Na5 more critical than 9...Qe7?  According to my database, white scores over 60% against the latter and only 39% against the former.  9...Na5 seems to be the move of choice in correspondence games (i.e. the engine's preferred move!)

In the first post of mine in this thread you'll see a link to an earlier "Hanstein Gambit" thread. We had already discussed 9...Na5 in some detail. Here I was refering to the line which formerly deemed critical to us. My present view about Na5 is something like: White's position looks a bit strange, but capturing the pawn f7 is probably worth the trouble. The Hanstein Gambit is all about pawn breaks: White gives a pawn for the better long-term prospects. And taking the pawn break f7-f5 out of the position is, in this respect, not a small achievement.

Sorry, TalJechin, I forgot to reply on this one:
Quote:
Btw, have you had any contact with the Jon Sveinsson from the ML in the first game I put here? A few years ago he claimed to have found the refutation of the Muzio - he even showed it to me at my chessclub's Christmas party (though the Muzio has never interested me so I soon forgot it - it was something about choosing between two set-ups depending on white's choice...) and added something about easily beating a GM on the net with it...

No contact so far. If you have, by coincidence, his address, please give it to me via PM. I'd gladly send him Kaissiber issue #13 with Dr. Stock's large article on the Muzio.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #40 - 06/11/11 at 12:30:21
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Gambiteer wrote on 06/11/11 at 05:00:33:
In the 8. Qa4 line isn't 9...Na5 more critical than 9...Qe7?  According to my database, white scores over 60% against the latter and only 39% against the former.  9...Na5 seems to be the move of choice in correspondence games (i.e. the engine's preferred move!)


Read previous entries.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #39 - 06/11/11 at 05:00:33
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In the 8. Qa4 line isn't 9...Na5 more critical than 9...Qe7?  According to my database, white scores over 60% against the latter and only 39% against the former.  9...Na5 seems to be the move of choice in correspondence games (i.e. the engine's preferred move!)
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #38 - 06/09/11 at 22:24:04
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I've been looking at 13...Re8 followed by Nf6-h5-g3, but White's position does have some venom, once the centre and q-side pawns finally start rolling. Black's chances lie mainly in waiting for white to chose the wrong set-up, which in engine blitz really pays off, as few engines have any idea how to play it. So, it's probably equalish after all, but with a surprising amount of practical winning chances for both sides. Especially if you're a patient counter-attacker.
« Last Edit: 06/09/11 at 23:56:57 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #37 - 06/08/11 at 14:11:37
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"might indeed be good" Hmm, as we say around here, "you were sane recently" Wink  -- frankly, I don't see how you can possibly still defend 11...Qc7?!

For example, in the line you give as equal, just replace the 'I hope Black gives me a tempo with 26...Kh7' with 26...Qe6.

In the main line your 23.Rb1 Ng3 24.c4 does seem to equalise eventually, despite weakening pawn-d4.

Practically, 11...Nf6 is still =+, motivated, as you say, by "I'd rather have Black", but to prove a theoretical edge one may need a line that doesn't allow so many exchanges - on the other hand, if there is such a line, then black may be playing for more than =+.

So, - I might be back... Wink
« Last Edit: 06/08/11 at 23:20:44 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #36 - 06/07/11 at 12:50:28
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After TalJechin's logical and straightforward 15...Nf6! I have to agree that 11.Qxc7 isn't valid for correspondence play. Black's king is somewhat exposed though, with only a few pawns left on the board White's chances for a draw are quite reasonable. Are there enough chances (i.e. hope that Black could miss 15...Nf6!)  to justify the use in blitz or fast games? Perhaps. Anyway, I no longer claim theoretical merits for 11.Qxc7.

The main line is 11.Qa6. Here we could debate whether 13.h3 can be replaced by s.th. more ambitious. But since 13.h3 looks perfectly solid to achieve a draw, it would not be an urging question for me. Maybe s.o. else would like to study the alternatives?

In the KG, Fischer was hardly an expert. For new ideas, we should rather study Steinitz. To say that 8.Qb3 means "playing on the queenside" while Black gains control over the rest of the board is pessimistic. We have seen that the direct 8.g3 doesn't work. But g2-g3 may be fine under better circumstances. So White improves his piece placement. It goes without saying that he should deny Black his topical pawn breaks. In particular the threats of g5-g4 or f7-f5 require very concrete analysis, a small error on White's side can destroy the concept. But with best play White has full compensation in my opinion.

  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #35 - 05/30/11 at 17:01:58
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[quote author=6764482A0 link=1305856339/34#34 date=1306758744][quote author=0134391F30363D3C3B550 link=1305856339/33#33 date=1306749960][i]If[/i] the Hanstein ideas with an early g3 and/or h4 would work, liberating Bc1, then the variation would be viable, but advancing on the queenside while behind in development is not how I want to play the KG.[/quote]
Pretty much my feeling as well. I happen to disagree with RJ Fischer here: if Black plays ...g4 and ...f3 White is fine. It's Alapin's ...Bh3 that troubles me. Hence the idea of playing g2-g3 with the Bishop still on f1 - so either 4.Nc3 or 4.d4.
[/quote]
MNb, Taljechin, I can feel your pain. But sometimes the good moves are not where we think they are.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #34 - 05/30/11 at 13:32:24
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[quote author=0134391F30363D3C3B550 link=1305856339/33#33 date=1306749960][i]If[/i] the Hanstein ideas with an early g3 and/or h4 would work, liberating Bc1, then the variation would be viable, but advancing on the queenside while behind in development is not how I want to play the KG.[/quote]
Pretty much my feeling as well. I happen to disagree with RJ Fischer here: if Black plays ...g4 and ...f3 White is fine. It's Alapin's ...Bh3 that troubles me. Hence the idea of playing g2-g3 with the Bishop still on f1 - so either 4.Nc3 or 4.d4.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #33 - 05/30/11 at 11:06:00
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@Paddy Jesse and Tony are working on the chessflash to get an automatic pgn generation and to get folks to test it properly when it arrives I think it's better to refrain from adding pgn-files. If you can't wait - do it yourself!

As for who's an expert, surely Stefan is more qualified than me as he has also written two books on the KG one advocating the Muzio/Hanstein for white and one advocating a new defence for black! In addition he runs a magazine that specialises in creative openings and chess history.

A few years ago someone suggested (or rather 'demanded' actually...) that I should write a book on the full history of the KG from Greco to Now. I like the idea but I won't do it as I hardly know Hanstein from Beerstein ;) but Stefan should be the ideal author for such a book!

It's true that you can get into the Hanstein via 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3 which was the old remedy, but personally I think 4.d4 is more or less the only move. And as in the paradox you mention, I much prefer to play the Bishop's Gambit as nowadays I'm suspicious of the Kieseritzky. It's better than the Hanstein but probably not good enough to rely on vs preppies. So the set-up Shirov used in the game that started off this thread is probably the new mainline. Though I'm not so keen on giving up a piece so early, even if the compensation is probably adequate.

Wanting more KG-style options is a good idea, but why not look for newer ideas instead of trying to resuscitate abandoned old ideas?

Compared to the QG there's two differences that strikes me - many QGs start with 1. or 2. Nf3 while the Vienna is supposedly a completely different opening...

And in the QG white can often block in Bc1 with e3 early on and still get reasonable chances of an advantage, while an early d3 is scuffed upon in the KG. But one could think of it as a Balogh with a free e4... It won't give a theoretical edge but I think it has more potential and less risk for white than what we're debating.

[i]If[/i] the Hanstein ideas with an early g3 and/or h4 would work, liberating Bc1, then the variation would be viable, but advancing on the queenside while behind in development is not how I want to play the KG.

[pgn][Event "re:"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.05.30"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Macdonell's 8.Qa4"]
[Black "13.h3 -- 17....dxe4"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C38"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 h6 5. O-O g5 6. d4 Bg7 7. c3 Nc6 8. Qa4
Bd7 9. Qb3 Qe7 10. Qxb7 Rb8 11. Qa6 (11. Qxc7 $6 {is something white can get
away with on the board, but against the Borg Collective resistance is indeed
futile! Funny enough it's not the sacrificied piece that decides, but, as
usual, white's dormant queenside:} Rc8 12. Qb7 Na5 13. Bxf7+ Qxf7 14. Qa6 Nc6
15. Na3 Nf6 {instead of the unnatural Qe7.} 16. Nb5 (16. Nc4 Nxe4 17. Nfd2 O-O
18. Nxe4 d5 19. Nxg5 hxg5 20. Nd6 Qg6 21. Nxc8 Bxc8 22. Qa4 Bf5 $17) 16... Nxe4
$1 17. Nd2 (17. Re1 O-O 18. Rxe4 Qd5) 17... Nxd4 18. Nxd4 d5 19. Qa3 {
as black even has more than one choice here, he's probably been winning for a
while, but just as illustration of the carnage:} Bxd4+ (19... Qe7 20. Qxa7 O-O
21. Qb7 Bxd4+ 22. cxd4 Qe6 23. Nxe4 dxe4 24. d5 Qe8 $19) 20. cxd4 Qg7 21. Nf3
Bb5 22. Rd1 g4 23. Ne5 f3 24. Qb3 f2+ 25. Kh1 Qb7 26. a4 O-O 27. Be3 Ba6 28.
Qxb7 Bxb7 29. Ng6 Ba6 30. Ne7+ Kg7 31. Nxc8 Rxc8 32. g3 Rc2 33. Rf1 Bxf1 34.
Rxf1 Rxb2 35. Kg2 Kg6 36. a5 Ra2 37. Kh1 Kg7 38. Kg2 Rxa5 39. Bc1 Ra2 40. Bf4
a5 41. Bc7 a4 42. Bb6 Ra3 43. Bc7 Rf3 44. h3 a3 45. hxg4 Nd2 {0-1}) 11... Nf6
12. Nbd2 {Divanbaigyzand,M (2445)-Ledford,S (2072)/ICCF 2005} O-O 13. h3 {
Diagram #} Rb6 $5 {The following forcing sequence looks best, as e4-e5 is
white's only way to get any play so why not remove pawn-e4?} 14. Qa3 Nxe4 15.
Re1 d5 16. Qxe7 Nxe7 17. Nxe4 dxe4 {
The natural and safe capture seems most promising after all.} (17... dxc4 18.
Nexg5 Re8 19. Ne4 Nd5 20. Nc5 {is a draw offer hard to refuse, so the ugly
variation didn't work out to more than complete equality. A pity, but not too
surprising when you think about it.}) 18. Rxe4 Nf5 19. Re1 Rd8 $5 {
is my improvement on Stefan's line below.} (19... Re8 20. Rxe8+ Bxe8 21. b3 $5
Bb5 22. Bxb5 Rxb5 23. Rb1 Rb6 24. Bd2 $11) 20. b3 (20. Ne5 Be6 21. Bd3 (21.
Bxe6 Rxe6 $17) 21... Nh4 22. Kf2 Bd5 $15) 20... Be6 21. Bxe6 fxe6 {
Keep the pieces on the board when you got a space advantage...} 22. h4 Rd5 23.
Bd2 (23. hxg5 hxg5 24. Nxg5 $2 Nxd4 $1) (23. Rb1 Ng3 24. Kh2 Bf6 25. b4 Kf7 26.
a4 Rb8 27. Rb2 Rg8 28. Kg1 {Stockfish 2.1.1 JA 64bit:} c6 $15 29. Kh2 Re8 30.
Rb3 Nf5 31. Rb2 a5 32. b5 cxb5 33. axb5 Rb8 34. b6 Rd6 35. b7 Rd7 36. Ra2 Rdxb7
37. hxg5 hxg5 38. Rxa5 Rb6 39. Bd2 Rb1 40. Rxb1 Rxb1 $19 41. g4 fxg3+ 42. Kg2
g4 43. Ne5+ {[%eval -60,27]} Bxe5 $19) 23... Ra6 24. hxg5 (24. b4 g4 25. Ne5
Bxe5 26. Rxe5 Rxe5 27. dxe5 Ra3 $17) 24... hxg5 25. b4 Bf6 26. a4 Kf7 $15 27.
b5 Rad6 28. Rab1 g4 29. Bxf4 (29. Nh2 $2 Rxd4 $1 $19 30. cxd4 Bxd4+) 29... gxf3
30. Bxd6 Nxd6 $15

[/pgn]
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #32 - 05/29/11 at 20:53:19
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Thanks for giving the pgn. If I find anything that might be of interest to this discussion, I shall return!

It is curious that engines also seem to prefer the at-first-sght unappealing (because Ponziani-like?) 8 Qa4.

PS First impression - it's chaos!
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #31 - 05/29/11 at 19:43:52
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[quote author=0E3F3A3A275E0 link=1305856339/30#30 date=1306672603]
An impressive discussion between two real experts - thanks chaps![/quote]
[i]The [/i]expert here is my adversary aka [b]Thomas Johansson,[/b] Sweden, who wrote not only a book on the King's Knight Gambit, but also another on the King's Bishop Gambit, both from White's point of view. Quite a paradox.

Not a paradox in the sense of [b]"The Café de la Régence is the meeting-place of Scandinavians and chess-players"[/b] (Johnson's Universal Cyclopedia, vol. 6, p. 442, New York 1895). A paradox nonetheless for those familiar with the coffeehouse joke: [b]"I like to accept the King's Knight Gambit, but decline the King's Bishop Gambit."[/b]

The Hanstein Gambit belongs to both parts of the KG. You'd assume it might be an ideal weapon for someone who knows so much about both 3.Bc4 and 3.Nf3.

[pgn][Event "[Stefan Bücker]"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hanstein Gambit"]
[Black "sound or not?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C38"]
[Annotator ",Stefan"]
[PlyCount "85"]
[EventDate "1990.10.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 h6 5. O-O g5 6. d4 Bg7 7. c3 Nc6 8. Qa4 {
Alexander McDonnell 1828} 8... Bd7 9. Qb3 Qe7 10. Qxb7 Rb8 11. Qa6 {
The solid choice, with roughly equal chances.} (11. Qxc7 $5 Rc8 12. Qb7 Na5 13.
Bxf7+ Qxf7 14. Qa6 Nc6 15. Na3 {The following complications are a jungle. I
don't claim equality for White, the analysis only gives some sample lines. It
looks like another high-risk system, like the Muzio. And like the Muzio, it
might score well in practice.} 15... Qe7 16. Re1 Nb8 17. Qb7 (17. Qxa7 g4 18.
Qa5 gxf3 19. Qh5+ Qf7 20. Qxf3 Ne7 21. Bxf4 Nbc6 22. Nb5 O-O 23. Rf1 Ne5 24.
Qe2 Qc4 25. Qxc4+ Nxc4 26. Nxd6 Rxf4 27. Nxc8 Rxf1+ 28. Rxf1 Nxc8) 17... Kf7 (
17... Nf6 18. e5) 18. Qb3+ (18. e5) (18. Qxa7 Nf6 19. e5 Nc6 20. exf6 Qxe1+ 21.
Nxe1 Nxa7 22. fxg7) 18... Be6 19. Qb5 (19. Qb4) 19... a6 (19... Qd8 20. h4 g4
21. Qh5+ Kf8 22. Qg6 Qd7 23. Nh2 Nf6 (23... d5 $5 24. Bxf4 Nf6 25. Rf1 Kg8 26.
Be5 Bf7 27. Qxg7+ Kxg7 28. Rxf6 Kf8 29. exd5 Rh7 30. c4) 24. Bxf4 d5 25. Rf1
Kg8 26. Be5 Bf7 27. Qxg7+ Kxg7 28. Rxf6 Kf8 29. exd5 Rh7 30. c4) 20. Qd3 Qa7
21. g3 fxg3 22. hxg3 Nd7 23. Be3 Qb7 24. Rf1 Ngf6 25. e5 Qxb2 26. exf6 Nxf6 27.
c4 Bh3 28. Nc2 (28. Nd2) 28... Bxf1 29. Rxf1 Rhf8 30. Bc1 Qb8 31. Bxg5 hxg5 32.
Nxg5+ Kg8 33. Ne3 Qa7 34. Ne6 Qd7 35. Nxf8 Rxf8 36. Nf5 d5 37. cxd5 Nxd5 38.
Nxg7 Qxg7 39. Rxf8+ Kxf8 40. Qf5+ Nf6 41. Qc8+ Kf7 42. Qb7+ Kg8 43. Qa8+ Kh7
44. Qxa6 $11) 11... Nf6 12. Nbd2 O-O 13. h3 Rb6 (13... Rfe8 14. Re1 Rb6 15. Qa3
d5 16. Qxe7 Rxe7 17. exd5 Rxe1+ 18. Nxe1 Ne7 19. Nd3 Nfxd5 20. Nf3 $14 {
... based on "I'd rather have White"}) 14. Qa3 Nxe4 15. Re1 d5 16. Qxe7 Nxe7
17. Nxe4 dxc4 (17... dxe4 18. Rxe4 Nf5 19. Re1 Re8 20. Rxe8+ Bxe8 21. b3 $5 Bb5
22. Bxb5 Rxb5 23. Rb1 Rb6 24. Bd2 $11) 18. Nexg5 Re8 19. Ne4 Nd5 20. Nc5 $1 ({
Can I take these moves back? =>} 20. Kf2 $6 Bc6 21. a4 $2 ({
my failed attempt to improve upon analysis by TalJechin:} 21. Nc5 Rxe1 22. Kxe1
h5 23. Ke2 f6 24. a4 a5 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Nh4 Bh6 27. Ke1 Rb8 28. Kf1 Ne3+ 29.
Bxe3 fxe3 30. Rb1 Rg8 31. Re1 Bf4 32. Re2 Rg5 33. g4 hxg4 34. hxg4 Rxg4 35. Ng2
Bxg2+ 36. Rxg2 f5 37. Re2 Rh4 38. Kg2 Bg5 39. Kf3 Ke7 40. Na6 f4 41. Rg2 Kf6
42. Ke4 Rh3 43. Re2 Kg6 44. Nxc7 f3 45. Rxe3 f2) 21... a5 22. Ra2 Rbb8 $1 {
=+ TalJechin, which is really convincing}) 20... Rxe1+ 21. Nxe1 Bc6 22. Nc2 Ba8
(22... Rb8 23. Na6 Re8 24. Kf1) 23. Ne1 {Okay, admittedly this is not my most
creative analysis ever. With some exchanges, White goes into a drawish ending.
If White wants more, he should look elsewhere.} 23... h5 (23... Bc6 24. Nc2 $11
) 24. Nd7 Rd6 (24... Re6 25. Kf2 $11) (24... Rg6 25. Kf2 $11) 25. Ne5 Bxe5 26.
dxe5 Rb6 27. b3 Nxc3 28. Bd2 Ne4 29. Bxf4 cxb3 30. axb3 c5 31. Rxa7 Bd5 32. Ra3
Bxb3 33. Nf3 Bd5 34. Nd2 c4 35. Nxe4 Bxe4 36. Rg3+ Kf8 37. Kf2 Rb2+ 38. Ke3
Bxg2 39. Kd4 Ke7 40. Kxc4 Ke6 41. Re3 Bf1+ 42. Kc3 Rb5 43. h4 $11 *
[/pgn]
  

Hanstein_Gambit.pgn ( 3 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #30 - 05/29/11 at 13:36:43
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An impressive discussion between two real experts - thanks chaps!

But if you would like others to fully appreciate what you are saying, and perhaps to contribute to the debate, it would be a real help if you could add the pgn of the analysis. Pretty please?  :)
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #29 - 05/29/11 at 11:33:20
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Hmm, after sacrificing one's structure for activity and bishop pair then it's not logical to give away the bishop pair so easily - at least not without getting anything in return.

After 22.Ra2 black should play 22...Rbb8 e.g: 23.Ne5 Ba8 24.Nf3
[i](24.Nd2 c5!; 24.Nc5 drops a pawn to 24...Bxe5 25.Rxe5 (25.dxe5 Rb6!) Rxe5 26.dxe5 Re8 27.Nd7 Re6 28.Nf6+ Nxf6 29.exf6 Rxf6) [/i]
24....h5 =+

I'll take a look at 11.Qxc7 - if black has to accept a messy position then it's probably a better shot than suffering in the endgame after 17...dxc4!


Btw, have you had any contact with the Jon Sveinsson from the ML in the first game I put here? A few years ago he claimed to have found the refutation of the Muzio - he even showed it to me at my chessclub's Christmas party (though the Muzio has never interested me so I soon forgot it - it was something about choosing between two set-ups depending on white's choice...) and added something about easily beating a GM on the net with it...
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #28 - 05/29/11 at 07:10:01
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Correction: said book was written by William Greenwood Walker (not George Walker).

Howard Staunton (1860) uttered doubt whether 8.Qa4 was the best move. McDonnell used it in 1828, in a blindfold game, but prefered 8.Na3 in a real match later. That said, 8.Qa4 is interesting, and if it leads to =, it would be a signal that the Gambit deserves more study.



Postscript: Can a wealthy Irish chess patriot please start an action committee "Exhume Alexander McDonnell"? No painting or portrait of McDonnell has ever been found. Forensic experts are busy working on Oetzi, neanderthals and medieval VIPs, why not a chess hero? When the work is done, the skull could serve as a nice farewell gift for Mr. Ilyumshinov for all what he has done for FIDE. It would look great on his desk. 
« Last Edit: 05/29/11 at 08:47:53 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #27 - 05/28/11 at 15:53:48
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And here are the result from the Borg jury. I could of course have spent even more time on it, but it's Barca-United in a few hours and besides, I suspect you may want to replace 13.h3 with something else.


  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #26 - 05/28/11 at 11:09:19
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[quote]Good man, that McDonnell. He already knew high-class stuff, like 1.e4 e6 2.f4. - Did you notice, by the way, that the game given by ChessBase, Alexander McDonnell - NN, sim Edinburgh 1839, has a little problem: Alexander McDonnell died in 1835. How did they do this?

Henk Smout gave the hint (thanks!): the moves are right, but not the data. The game was played on December 20th, 1828, in William Lewis' house. McDonnell won (blindfolded) against Thomas Herbert Worrall. Source: George Walker: A Selection of Games at Chess, Actually Played in London ... , London 1836, pp.37-38.[/quote]

Well, he could have played via a medium, like Maroczy! :))

Anyway, that explains why I also had the 1828 game in my database - but with black being "Unknown" - one of the most unlucky players in the history of chess.

And nice that someone found a use for that book. That title must rate among the nerdiest in chess history! :)

Anyway, 13.h3!? looks quite reasonable, though it breaks at least a couple of thumb rules.  I'll see what the Dark Side can come up with.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #25 - 05/27/11 at 23:37:08
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I'd suggest 11. Qa6 (forget about 11.Qxc7) 11...Nf6 12.Nbd2 (the move order 12.h3?! Nxe4 may be too optimistic) 12...0-0 (your proposal; if 12...Ng4 13.Nb3 looks fine) 13.h3! (a bit unusual, but in the given position it seems possible to keep the bishop on its strong square c4, so why play 13.Bd3?) 13...Rfe8 14.Re1 Rb6 15.Qa3 d5 16.Qxe7 Rxe7 17.exd5 Rxe1+ 18.Nxe1 and White has a slight edge in the ending.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #24 - 05/27/11 at 22:36:32
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TalJechin wrote on 05/26/11 at 18:11:17:
Quote:
In my opinion the Hanstein Gambit is just as sound as the Kieseritzky Gambit.


And how sound do you think the Kieseritzky is nowadays? Wink

Sound enough. Few people believe that White can win by force, so imo an occasional draw isn't a cause for panic. More important is that White can vary between 4-5 correct systems, so that he always can choose: play the safest line (if a draw would be OK), the best line or the "must-win" repertoire. That's what Spanish and Scottish can offer, and we need similar options in the KG. Neglecting the Hanstein doesn't make sense. Those who defend the KG classically must tremble in fear whether they'll face the Hanstein, the Kieseritzky, the Muzio, the Philidor or whatever Gambit. Nowadays a KG player who doesn't vary his systems is no threat at all. But if opponents see all kinds of lines in your games: Kieseritzky, Hanstein with 8.Qa4, with 8.Na3, with 8.b4 (Steinitz), with g3 or the Philidor Gambit (h4), Quaade, Salvio etc., the chances are good that they'll rather avoid the classical system completely.

TalJechin wrote on 05/26/11 at 18:11:17:
As for 8.Qa4 I thought you would know (and be sure to point out) it was played by Macdonnell already in 1839, but apparently not.

Urk.  Embarrassed   Embarrassed   Embarrassed 
Good man, that McDonnell. He already knew high-class stuff, like 1.e4 e6 2.f4. - Did you notice, by the way, that the game given by ChessBase, Alexander McDonnell - NN, sim Edinburgh 1839, has a little problem: Alexander McDonnell died in 1835. How did they do this?

Henk Smout gave the hint (thanks!): the moves are right, but not the data. The game was played on December 10th, 1828, in William Lewis' house. McDonnell won (blindfolded) against "W......". Source: George Walker: A Selection of Games at Chess, Actually Played in London, by the late Alexander McDonnell Esqu., the best English Player, with his principal Contemporaries, including the whole of the Games played by Mons. De La Bourdonnais and Mr. McDonnell. With an Appendix, containing three Games played by Mons. Des Chapelles and Mr. Lewis, in 1821.  ... , London 1836, pp.37-38.

(Edit: Correcting the last paragraph; corrections in bold print. Because of the historical importance of the book - the McDonnell vs Labourdonnais-Matches greatly inspired the Berlin plejades - it seemed appropriate to give the title in full)

TalJechin wrote on 05/26/11 at 18:11:17:
Anyway, I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG, except that it feels slightly uncomfortable.

After a fresh look today, I'd probably prefer to give the b-pawn instead of the f-pawn, i.e: 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8 11.Qa6 etc

[...] It's simply not the kind of position I'd be hoping for as white with 2.f4!?

Will analyze it a bit (i.e. your analysis in the other post). There is also 11.Qxc7 Rc8 12.Qb7 Na5 13.Bxf7+ Qxf7 14.Qa6 Nc6 15.Na3. The PC doesn't like it, but if White can get a "stable" ending (preferably with an exchange of queens) with a bunch of pawns on the q-side for the bishop, it might be an idea.
« Last Edit: 05/28/11 at 20:13:24 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #23 - 05/27/11 at 10:42:34
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[quote author=5D5E72100 link=1305856339/22#22 date=1306456482][quote author=586D6046696F6465620C0 link=1305856339/21#21 date=1306429877]I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG[/quote]
1) "looks odd, but may be the best option as White can battle on in a level position."
2) Schulze-Koch, IECG Email 2002, unclear/roughly equal.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reminder. It seems I've changed my mind here then. Maybe the following games weren't available to me or I wasn't looking at Qa4 from a black perspective or perhaps most likely: the engines are stronger nowadays! Here's something to illustrate my current view of the situation:

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.05.26"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Macdonell's 8.Qa4"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "C38"]
[PlyCount "94"]
[EventType "corr"]
[SourceDate "2010.10.13"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 h6 5. O-O g5 6. d4 Bg7 7. c3 Nc6 8. Qa4
Bd7 9. Qb3 Qe7 10. Qxb7 Rb8 11. Qa6 Nf6 12. d5 (12. Nbd2 Rb6 (12... O-O $142
13. Bd3 Rfe8 14. d5 Rb6 15. Qa3 Nxd5 (15... Nd8 16. Qxa7 Nxd5 17. exd5 Qe3+ 18.
Kh1 Qxd3 19. Qxc7 Rb7 20. Qc4) 16. Nc4 (16. exd5 Qe3+ 17. Rf2 Qxd3 18. dxc6
Bxc6 $40) 16... Nf6 17. Nxb6 axb6 {and black seems better, e.g:} 18. Qb3 (18.
Bd2 Ne5 19. Nxe5 Qxe5 20. Qb4 Bc6) (18. Re1 $2 g4 19. Nd4 Nxd4 20. cxd4 Nh5 21.
e5 Qh4 $40) 18... Ne5 19. Nxe5 Qxe5 20. Qc4 (20. Re1 $4 Qc5+ 21. Kh1 Ng4) 20...
Nxe4) 13. Qa3 d5 14. Qxe7+ Nxe7 15. exd5 Nfxd5 16. Nb3 O-O $13 17. Re1 Bf5 18.
Bd2 Rd8 19. Ne5 Ng6 20. Nd3 Nh4 21. Ndc5 Nf6 22. Re7 Ne8 23. Rxf7 Kh8 24. Bd3
Bxd3 25. Nxd3 Kg8 26. Re7 f3 27. g3 Ng6 28. Re3 g4 29. Nbc5 Nd6 30. b3 Nf5 31.
Re4 h5 32. Rae1 Bf6 33. Ne6 Rd7 34. Ndf4 Nxf4 35. Rxf4 Kf7 36. Nc5 Rd5 37. Re5
Rxe5 38. dxe5 Be7 39. Nd7 Rc6 40. Rxf5+ Ke6 41. Rxh5 Kxd7 42. h3 Bc5+ 43. Kf1
gxh3 44. Rxh3 Rg6 45. b4 Bb6 46. a4 a6 47. Rh7+ Kc6 48. a5 Ba7 49. Rh6 {
1-0 Divanbaigyzand,M (2445)-Ledford,S (2072)/ICCF 2005/UltraCorr2}) (12. b4 Rb6
(12... Nxe4 13. Bd5 Rb6 14. Qd3 f5 15. Re1 $140 Kd8) 13. Qa3 O-O $6 (13... Nxe4
$1) 14. b5 Nd8 15. e5 Ne8 16. Re1 g4 17. exd6 Qf6 18. Ne5 Rxd6 19. Rf1 Ne6 20.
Bxe6 Qxe6 21. Nxd7 Qxd7 22. Bxf4 Rxd4 23. cxd4 Qxd4+ 24. Kh1 Qxa1 25. Qxa7 Qb2
26. a4 Qe2 27. Rc1 Bb2 28. Rg1 Qe4 29. Rf1 Qc4 30. Nd2 Qe6 31. Bxc7 Qd7 32. b6
Nxc7 33. Qxc7 Qxc7 34. bxc7 Rc8 35. Nc4 Bg7 36. Rxf7 Kxf7 37. Nd6+ Ke6 38. Nxc8
Kd7 39. Nd6 Kxc7 40. Ne8+ {1-0 Schwarhofer,C (2227)-Diermair,A (2388)/Leoben
AUT 2008/The Week in Chess 715}) 12... Rb6 (12... Nd8 13. Qxa7 Rb7 14. Qd4 O-O
15. Nbd2 g4 16. Ne1 Nh5 17. Qd3 f5 18. Nc2 Nf7 19. exf5 Ne5 20. Qe2 Bxf5 21.
Nd4 Bg6 (21... Bd7 22. a4 Qh4 23. Ba6 Rbb8 24. Qe1 Qxe1 25. Rxe1 Ra8 26. Bb5
Bxb5 27. Nxb5 Nd3 28. Rd1 Rf7 29. Nb3 Nxc1 30. Rdxc1 g3 31. N3d4 Nf6 32. c4 Ne4
33. a5 Be5 34. h3 Nf2 35. Ra3 f3 36. b4 fxg2 37. Kxg2 {
1-0 Leone,C-Beckman/corr 1991/KG}) (21... f3 $5) 22. Nc6 $6 Qh4 23. Ba6 Rb6 24.
Nxe5 Bxe5 25. Bc4 f3 26. gxf3 Nf4 27. Qe1 Nh3+ 28. Kh1 g3 29. Ne4 Rxf3 {
0-1 Kremer,H-Hesselbarth,K/GER-ch qgC29 corr9395 1993/CR97-93}) (12... Ne5 13.
Nxe5 (13. Qxa7 Nxf3+ 14. gxf3 O-O 15. b3 Bh3 16. Re1 Ra8 17. Qf2 Nd7 18. Bb2
Ne5 19. Nd2 g4 20. fxg4 Qg5 21. Be2 f5 22. exf5 Bxg4 23. Kh1 Qxf5 24. c4 Bxe2
25. Qxe2 f3 26. Qe4 Nd3 27. Qxf5 Rxf5 28. Bxg7 Nxe1 29. Rxe1 f2 30. Rf1 Kxg7
31. a4 Raf8 32. a5 Kf6 33. Ne4+ Ke5 {
0-1 Crawley,A-Mueller,K/http://correspondencechess.co 1999}) 13... Qxe5 (13...
dxe5 14. Qxa7 O-O 15. b3 Nxe4 16. Ba3 Qd8 17. d6 Nxd6 18. Rd1 Bg4 19. Rd5 Be6
20. Rc5 Nxc4 {
0-1 Zelic,M (2305)-Sulava,N (2540)/Sibenik CRO 2009/The Week in Chess 777}) 14.
Qxa7 O-O 15. Nd2 c5 16. dxc6 Bxc6 17. Bxf7+ Kh8 18. Bg6 Bxe4 19. Nxe4 Nxe4 20.
Re1 d5 21. Qd7 f3 22. gxf3 Rxf3 23. Bxe4 dxe4 24. Qg4 Qc5+ 25. Kh1 Rbf8 26. Qg1
Qb5 27. a4 Qb7 28. Be3 Qxb2 29. Bd4 e3 30. Rab1 Qc2 31. Bxe3 Bxc3 32. Bd4+ {
1-0 Leone,C-Van Aalzum,J/corr 1988/OM Corr}) 13. Qa3 Ne5 14. Nxe5 dxe5 (14...
Qxe5 15. Nd2 O-O 16. Re1 Ng4 17. Bd3 Ne3 18. Nf3 Qf6 19. Bxe3 fxe3 20. Rxe3 g4
21. Nd2 Qg5 22. Rae1 Be5 23. g3 h5 24. Qxa7 Rxb2 25. Nc4 h4 26. Nxb2 {
1-0 D Ettorre,R (1928)-Roncagliolo,M (1748)/FICGS 2009/OM Corr}) 15. Qxe7+ Kxe7
16. Bd3 c6 17. c4 cxd5 18. cxd5 Rc8 19. Na3 (19. Nc3 Bf8 20. Rb1 Kd8 21. Bd2
Bc5+ 22. Kh1 Bd4 $17) 19... Rb4 20. Nc2 Rxe4 21. b3 (21. Bxe4 Nxe4 $17) 21...
Kd6 22. Rd1 Kxd5 23. Ba6+ Ke6 24. Bxc8 Bxc8 25. Ba3 Re2 26. Rd6+ Kf5 27. Ne1
Ng4 28. Kf1 Re4 29. Rc6 Be6 30. h3 Ne3+ 31. Kf2 g4 32. Bc5 g3+ 33. Kg1 Nd5 34.
Nf3 Re2 35. Nh4+ Kg5 36. Nf3+ Kg6 37. Re1 Rc2 38. a3 Nc3 39. Rd6 e4 40. Rd2
Bxb3 41. Rxc2 Bxc2 42. Nd4 Bd3 43. Bxa7 Bxd4+ 44. Bxd4 Ne2+ 45. Rxe2 Bxe2 46.
Be5 Kf5 47. Bd6 h5 {
0-1 Koudelka,I (2076)-Sveinsson,J (2000)/SEMI Email 2000/MegaCorr3}

[/pgn]
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #22 - 05/27/11 at 01:34:42
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[quote author=586D6046696F6465620C0 link=1305856339/21#21 date=1306429877]I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG[/quote]
1) "looks odd, but may be the best option as White can battle on in a level position."
2) Schulze-Koch, IECG Email 2002, unclear/roughly equal.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #21 - 05/26/11 at 18:11:17
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[quote]In my opinion the Hanstein Gambit is just as sound as the Kieseritzky Gambit.[/quote]

And how sound do you think the Kieseritzky is nowadays? ;)

As for 8.Qa4 I thought you would know (and be sure to point out) it was played by Macdonnell already in 1839, but apparently not.

Anyway, I don't remember what conclusion I arrived at in the FKG, except that it feels slightly uncomfortable.

After a fresh look today, I'd probably prefer to give the b-pawn instead of the f-pawn, i.e: 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8 11.Qa6 etc

After black has castled, his king is safe and he can play in the centre [i]and [/i]on the kingside. White has to safeguard pawn e4 and may eventually get some kind of chances on the queenside, but black's chances seem much better to me in the long term (as it seems much easier to improve black's position than white's), even if the machines would say it's equal at this point.

It's simply not the kind of position I'd be hoping for as white with 2.f4!?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #20 - 05/25/11 at 23:26:34
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In my opinion the Hanstein Gambit is just as sound as the Kieseritzky Gambit. In the thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1087669402/23#23 Glenn Snow had suggested the interesting 8.Qa4!?. And 8.b4 cannot be worse for White either.


  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #19 - 05/25/11 at 13:42:25
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Dragonslayer wrote on 05/25/11 at 11:50:30:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/24/11 at 19:00:38:
I'm left wondering about about the Quaade Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3) on account of 4...Nc6 transposing to the Vienna Gambit, where White's choices are the Hanstein Gambit (5.Bc4), the Pierce Gambit (5.d4) and the Hamppe-Allgaier (5.h4 g4 6.Ne5), and White is struggling to demonstrate full compensation in those lines.  4.Bc4 is neutralised by the Hanstein Gambit and while the Kieseritzky (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5) gives full compensation I don't see how White generates many winning chances after 5...Qe7.  It'll certainly be interesting to see what Shirov has in mind against 3...g5- if his idea is 4.Nc3, either the 4...Nc6 transposition hasn't been considered or White must have an improvement there somewhere.

Yes White has an improvement (not one of your choices). It was debated in this forum some years ago.


The Hamppe-Allgaier was looking quite good for White at one stage (5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Bb4 or 8...Nf6 allow White full compensation- Brabo tried to prove an edge for Black with no success) but Brabo then "put the boot on the other foot" with 8...f3!, when despite numerous attempts I was unable to demonstrate full compensation against accurate defence.  I also found that MNb mentioned 8...f3! as far back as 2005:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1133354340/11#11
and here's the thread where Brabo put the line under a cloud:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1208413606/0

I can't remember the details but I remember finding improvements for Black over Tim Harding's suggested draw in his Pierce Gambit article, so I don't trust 5.d4 at all.

I had a look in the archives and found this thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1217111507/31#31 It seemed that 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.g3!? wasn't quite working out for White- have I missed another thread where someone found something for White?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #18 - 05/25/11 at 11:53:55
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MNb wrote on 05/24/11 at 20:57:38:
There is also 4.d4 with the same idea Bg7 5.Nc3.

To satisfy everybody I will both give the score of a game and use the flash option. It's not much of an effort.

Spielmann,R - Cohn,E [C37]
Gambiettoernooi Abbazia/Opatija (7), 1912

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 d5 5.exd5 g4 6.Qe2+ Qe7 7.Ne5 f3 8.gxf3 gxf3 9.Qxf3 f6 10.Bb5+ Kd8 11.0-0 Nh6 12.Qxf6 Rg8+ 13.Kh1 Bh3 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Rxf8 Rxf8 16.Bg5+ Rf6 17.Nc3 1-0


4...d5 is interesting (4.Nc3 avoids this option) but imo 4...g4 is more testing. This was also debated earlier.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #17 - 05/25/11 at 11:50:30
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/24/11 at 19:00:38:
I'm left wondering about about the Quaade Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3) on account of 4...Nc6 transposing to the Vienna Gambit, where White's choices are the Hanstein Gambit (5.Bc4), the Pierce Gambit (5.d4) and the Hamppe-Allgaier (5.h4 g4 6.Ne5), and White is struggling to demonstrate full compensation in those lines.  4.Bc4 is neutralised by the Hanstein Gambit and while the Kieseritzky (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5) gives full compensation I don't see how White generates many winning chances after 5...Qe7.  It'll certainly be interesting to see what Shirov has in mind against 3...g5- if his idea is 4.Nc3, either the 4...Nc6 transposition hasn't been considered or White must have an improvement there somewhere.

Yes White has an improvement (not one of your choices). It was debated in this forum some years ago.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #16 - 05/25/11 at 11:47:25
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Paddy wrote on 05/24/11 at 17:03:16:
Dragonslayer wrote on 05/24/11 at 15:15:17:
[quote author=240201110A060F24020F06630 link=1305856339/9#9 date=1306107993]I thought
(cut)
PS. How can you copy pgn from a flash if you cannot view the flash.


Not sure what you mean by "cannot view the flash".
If you can see the notation in the posting, you can then highlight it, then Ctrl C the moves, run Chessbase, open a new game window and then Ctrl V to paste in the moves. Then save it as usual.


If you view the postiing on an Iphone then you cannot see the flash part, hence you cannot see the pgn embedded in the flash part, hence you cannot copy-paste the pgn....
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #15 - 05/24/11 at 20:57:38
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There is also 4.d4 with the same idea Bg7 5.Nc3.

To satisfy everybody I will both give the score of a game and use the flash option. It's not much of an effort.

Spielmann,R - Cohn,E [C37]
Gambiettoernooi Abbazia/Opatija (7), 1912

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 d5 5.exd5 g4 6.Qe2+ Qe7 7.Ne5 f3 8.gxf3 gxf3 9.Qxf3 f6 10.Bb5+ Kd8 11.0-0 Nh6 12.Qxf6 Rg8+ 13.Kh1 Bh3 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Rxf8 Rxf8 16.Bg5+ Rf6 17.Nc3 1-0



  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #14 - 05/24/11 at 19:00:38
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I'm left wondering about about the Quaade Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3) on account of 4...Nc6 transposing to the Vienna Gambit, where White's choices are the Hanstein Gambit (5.Bc4), the Pierce Gambit (5.d4) and the Hamppe-Allgaier (5.h4 g4 6.Ne5), and White is struggling to demonstrate full compensation in those lines.  4.Bc4 is neutralised by the Hanstein Gambit and while the Kieseritzky (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5) gives full compensation I don't see how White generates many winning chances after 5...Qe7.  It'll certainly be interesting to see what Shirov has in mind against 3...g5- if his idea is 4.Nc3, either the 4...Nc6 transposition hasn't been considered or White must have an improvement there somewhere.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #13 - 05/24/11 at 17:03:16
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Dragonslayer wrote on 05/24/11 at 15:15:17:
[quote author=240201110A060F24020F06630 link=1305856339/9#9 date=1306107993]I thought
(cut)
PS. How can you copy pgn from a flash if you cannot view the flash.


Not sure what you mean by "cannot view the flash".
If you can see the notation in the posting, you can then highlight it, then Ctrl C the moves, run Chessbase, open a new game window and then Ctrl V to paste in the moves. Then save it as usual.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #12 - 05/24/11 at 15:15:17
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GabrielGale wrote on 05/23/11 at 00:46:33:
I thought I should reply since I was the originator of the thread.
@Charles Allen, Paddy - I don't have access to a game replayer at work. I am not sufficiently competent to play blindfold an entire game. In the past before the flash player, I found it frustrating being unable to follow the games and fragments of games on ChessPub. I am not advocating putting every game in ChessPub forum as replayable. However, KG is a rare enough beast at 2600-2700 level that I thought it warrant such special treatment. Hence my decision to put Shirov's game as replayable.
But as someone else says, you don't have to come to the party if you do not feel up to it.
@Paddy, why the necessity to post game as well as pgn? Surely you can copy pgn from the Flash player?
2) I am unashamedly a fan of Shirov's style and play and games.
3) I haven't got to the stage of learning how to play the KG as white. Still trying to figure out which response to KG as Black to play. Therefore would have liked some explanation of the game from resident experts. If not such explanation forthcoming, I guess I will just have to check it against Micawber's excellent KG files. (My thanks, Micawber!)


I did write those articles for New in Chess, but they are always behaving very strangely, so I decided not to go forth with the one on the ...h6 lines (which was 95% finished)
Basically 3...h6 is a way to aim for a classical setup with a strongpoint on e5 (...d6, ...Bg7, ...Ne7-g6, ...Nc6, ..Qe7 etc.) without allowing the Kieseritzky. Compared to the Fischer (3...d6) Black can sometimes get ...d5 in without losing tempo.
White's setup in this game was recommended by Estrin/Glazkov in the 1988 russian version of their KG book (I am writing from memory now so perhaps there are earlier sources) except they gave the immediate 8.Be3. The finesse 8.Rg1! was discovered first by D.Nightingale (and later by me).
After this Black needs to be very careful. In the Shirov game Black does not even win the piece so 9...Nc6 must be queried. 9...gxf3 is the way to go when White's better development and centre is sufficient compensation for the knight.

Fedorov played this variation a few times but never had to reveal his preparation after 7.gxf4, because the opponents always deviated earlier.

Regards
Michael

PS. How can you copy pgn from a flash if you cannot view the flash.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #11 - 05/23/11 at 04:03:31
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@ Paddy, point taken but then I took the "pgn" from TWIC live games where the "games details" are not in the usual "pgn" notation. If you noticed the game I posted, the game details do not appear in the header but it appears in the text of my post in italics.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #10 - 05/23/11 at 02:05:55
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Thanks for getting back to us!

GabrielGale wrote on 05/23/11 at 00:46:33:
I thought
@Paddy, why the necessity to post game as well as pgn? Surely you can copy pgn from the Flash player?


How? Am I missing something?

Oh sure, you can Ctrl C the moves and then Ctrl V them into a new game-window in Chessbase, but then you have to spend time carefully adding all the game details. This is slightly annoying, especially  when you know that the guy that posted the game as Flash must have already had these details in a pgn file that he couldn't be bothered to add to his post, even as text (*), even when it takes just a few mouse clicks to attach it, or two keyboard shortcuts to copy and paste it.

Trivial, OK, but so are most annoyances in life. Smiley

(*) A useful feature In Chessbase is that you can paste a single game in pgn straight into a new game-window and save it into your database. All the header information will be copied correctly.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #9 - 05/23/11 at 00:46:33
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I thought I should reply since I was the originator of the thread.
@Charles Allen, Paddy - I don't have access to a game replayer at work. I am not sufficiently competent to play blindfold an entire game. In the past before the flash player, I found it frustrating being unable to follow the games and fragments of games on ChessPub. I am not advocating putting every game in ChessPub forum as replayable. However, KG is a rare enough beast at 2600-2700 level that I thought it warrant such special treatment. Hence my decision to put Shirov's game as replayable.
But as someone else says, you don't have to come to the party if you do not feel up to it.
@Paddy, why the necessity to post game as well as pgn? Surely you can copy pgn from the Flash player?
2) I am unashamedly a fan of Shirov's style and play and games.
3) I haven't got to the stage of learning how to play the KG as white. Still trying to figure out which response to KG as Black to play. Therefore would have liked some explanation of the game from resident experts. If not such explanation forthcoming, I guess I will just have to check it against Micawber's excellent KG files. (My thanks, Micawber!)
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #8 - 05/22/11 at 18:45:10
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TalJechin wrote on 05/21/11 at 11:31:19:
Charles Allen wrote on 05/20/11 at 14:53:23:
What's with all the Flash stuff in these forums these days?  Just post a pgn.  It's simple, robust, and can easily be copied and pasted into anyone's preferred tool for playing through games.


Enabling flash in your browser is even simpler.

The flash board is here to improve the discussions. If you don't want to take part you shouldn't complain either.


I disagree. I use an Iphone on the web a lot these days, and for various reasons there is no flash on Iphones (yes I know how to do it, so please don't send any suggestions regarding this).
Regarding the chess bit, I am pleased to see Shirov play the KG again. He did play it in the late 80ies, even the Polerio gambit.
I don't know about the 2.f4? comment (so many have put this ? in lapses of hybris) maybe it was after his win against Fedorov or Short.
He did suggest 4.Bc4 instead of 4.h4 in his comments to the Short game (Madrid 1997).
After 3...g5 I expect he would have played 4.Nc3, but let's hope we don't have to wait long for the answer to that one.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #7 - 05/21/11 at 12:35:35
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[quote author=4071747469100 link=1305856339/6#6 date=1305976163]I seem to recall that Shirov once wrote something like "! e4 e5 2 f4? Loses a pawn." - perhaps annotating one of his black games. So I wonder what he intended against 2...exf4 3 Nf3 g5.

Shirov's choice of opening was perhaps influenced by the fact that GM Alekseev (close to 2700 ELO, so no patzer) defends against 2 Nf3 with the Berlin Wall or the Petroff, but has no games vs 2 f4 in the database. One of those "It might just work" gambles?
[/quote]

After 3...g5 he would probably have played the same Nc3+d4 set-up anyway. Maybe following Michael Jensen's articles in NiC, mentioned here a while ago.

The KG should fit Shirov's style very much - iirc he used to play the Muzio Gambit in the early 90s. And especially in these days of opponents preparing extensively against you, it's wise to throw in a KG or at least something unexpected, now and then. It both gives future opponents more to prepare against and occasionally a fun win too! :)

Actually the KG seems to be back on the top level, though it's far too risky to play all the time at that level of preparation (which may well go for most openings - it's better to be a moving target than a sitting duck!). But the last couple of years we've seen Carlsen, Ivanchuk, Nakamura, Judit Polgar play it with good results.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #6 - 05/21/11 at 12:09:23
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I seem to recall that Shirov once wrote something like "! e4 e5 2 f4? Loses a pawn." - perhaps annotating one of his black games. So I wonder what he intended against 2...exf4 3 Nf3 g5.

Shirov's choice of opening was perhaps influenced by the fact that GM Alekseev (close to 2700 ELO, so no patzer) defends against 2 Nf3 with the Berlin Wall or the Petroff, but has no games vs 2 f4 in the database. One of those "It might just work" gambles?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #5 - 05/21/11 at 11:42:02
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for those preferring to read the PGN, it is certainly one click away from the flash animation ? can't see it with right-click though. Anyway, if everybody starts posting flash games just for fun, this forum will soon look like MSN.
As for Shirov playing KG, I guess he just indulged himself into a day off.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #4 - 05/21/11 at 11:31:19
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Charles Allen wrote on 05/20/11 at 14:53:23:
What's with all the Flash stuff in these forums these days?  Just post a pgn.  It's simple, robust, and can easily be copied and pasted into anyone's preferred tool for playing through games.


Enabling flash in your browser is even simpler.

The flash board is here to improve the discussions. If you don't want to take part you shouldn't complain either.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #3 - 05/20/11 at 16:23:50
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Charles Allen wrote on 05/20/11 at 14:53:23:
What's with all the Flash stuff in these forums these days?  Just post a pgn.  It's simple, robust, and can easily be copied and pasted into anyone's preferred tool for playing through games.


I agree.

Perhaps best would be Flash AND a pgn file, but failing that just attach the pgn, please!  It only takes a couple of seconds. Smiley
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #2 - 05/20/11 at 14:53:23
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What's with all the Flash stuff in these forums these days?  Just post a pgn.  It's simple, robust, and can easily be copied and pasted into anyone's preferred tool for playing through games.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #1 - 05/20/11 at 08:38:58
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The KG is approprite to Shirov's style and even in the highest level many players feel unconfortabale facing the KG so i'll hope Shirov will go on!
The game is surrealistic and i understand nothing!!
  

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C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
05/20/11 at 02:52:19
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Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the King's (Knight) Gambit and won:

Shirov,A (2709) - Alekseev,Evgeny (2673)
3rd Lublin GM Lublin POL (4), 2011.05.18


Someone care to comment/analyse?
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 03:51:46 by Smyslov_Fan »  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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