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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG (Read 54519 times)
micawber
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Re: C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #62 - 09/03/11 at 12:31:20
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thx Paddy.
Imho 3...h6 is not necessary bad but Alekseev did not make the most of his move-order and in my opinion, played an inaccurate 6th move especially against Shirov.

After 1.e4,e5 2.f4,exf 3.Nf3,h6 4.Nc3,d6 5.4,g5 6.g3
6...Bg7?! was not a wise choice against Shirov
forcing Nightingales discovery 7.gxf,g4 8.Rg1!
(Nightingale - Ruggeri Laderchi, corr., 2001)

Much more sensible is 6...hxg3! (while 6...g4 would probably have transposed to the Quaade Gambit proper)
When a good example is Grischuk - Lunev, Moscow, 1999
  
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Re: C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #61 - 09/01/11 at 15:45:38
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Shirov has some interesting and amusing things to say in his comments to his game vs Alekseev in CBM 143.

If I have undertoos him correctly, basically he thinks that 3...h6 is just bad but after 3...g5 White must still fight for equality. He had done some preparation of 3...g5 4 Nc3 just before the game, but kept finding fresh resources for Black after 4...Nc6, so had decided to play 4 h4 and was very relieved when Alekseev played 3...h6.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #60 - 06/25/11 at 02:55:16
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Gambiteer wrote on 06/22/11 at 20:00:53:
Curiously, d5 is a recurring theme for the computer.

Many thanks. I have tried your proposal d4-d5 in various move-orders. White seems to get a fully playable position. Imo 14.Nbd2 should now be considered as the main line. The same move was played, btw, as a reaction to 13...Qb6, in Zvjaginsev,V-Akopian,V, Rijeka CRO 2010. Which doesn't mean much, since Qb6 invites 14.Nbd2. Still, Mr. Z. might have planned 13...Qc7 14.Nbd2, who knows...



  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #59 - 06/22/11 at 20:00:53
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/18/11 at 19:14:08:
Gambiteer, an interesting idea which I'll study. White had intended to get his a1 rook to e1, a plan which you are spoiling. What do you think about my second proposal (in reply #20) 14.Nbd2?


It's an interesting move. If I was going to play the 8.Qa4 line, I think I'd be inclined to play 14.Nbd2 and I'd give serious consideration to the intriguing 15.b4 cxd4 16.cxd4 g4 17.Bb2 gxf3 18.Rac1 sacrifice outlined in your earlier diagram.

In looking at the 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 positions with the computer, I've noticed that our silicon friends seem hell bent on white moving d5 which is not a move that appeals to me even if it does carry with it a certain logic. The computer apparently wants to lock the pawn structure in order to make it easier for white to attack the backward d6 pawn with Nc4 despite the fact that ...b5 rains on the parade.

Here's an example that preempts ...b5:

14.Nbd2 Ne7 15.Qb3+ Kg6 16.d5 Kh7 17.a4

Another example where the computer prefers d5 but for different reasons:

8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 10.Bxf7+ Ke7 11.Qa3 Kxf7 12.Qxa5 c5 13.Qa3 Qc7 14.Qb3+ Kg6 15.d5 Nf6 16.Qc2 Kf7 17.c4 =/+

Curiously, d5 is a recurring theme for the computer.
  

-Roy
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #58 - 06/18/11 at 19:14:08
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Gambiteer, an interesting idea which I'll study. White had intended to get his a1 rook to e1, a plan which you are spoiling. What do you think about my second proposal (in reply #20) 14.Nbd2?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #57 - 06/18/11 at 17:59:34
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More analysis of the 9...Na5 variation with a new move for black. White's prospects look grim.
  

-Roy
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #56 - 06/17/11 at 20:33:27
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/15/11 at 18:31:27:
I've read this fascinating thread from start to finish, and the one thing I find missing is any serious analysis of the initial game!

The game was annotated, albeit not in much depth, at Chessvibes.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #55 - 06/17/11 at 07:28:33
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Sorry, Stefan, I didn't even realise I misspelled your name in my earlier post.  Embarrassed
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #54 - 06/16/11 at 15:36:04
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/15/11 at 18:31:27:
I've read this fascinating thread from start to finish, and the one thing I find missing is any serious analysis of the initial game!

Shirov's moves in this game baffled me. Playing at blitz speed I can usually predict most of the moves and work out most of the rest. But this game was completely beyond me. I know, I could turn on my favorite silicon beast to find some answers, but I'd rather see what TJ, Paddy, Dragonslayer and Stephan have to say about it.

Study a KG won by White? Wouldn't that help the Dark Side?
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #53 - 06/16/11 at 13:29:03
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[quote author=54577B190 link=1305856339/50#50 date=1308074114][quote author=5C6A797F77766B7479617D6A180 link=1305856339/49#49 date=1308061441]I got this idea from Santasiere's book where he plays g3 before castling.
If you also keep the bishop on f1 you gain another tempo for implementing the main plan.[/quote]
Can you give some details of that book? I stole the idea when I discovered some games of Johan Furhoff.
[/quote]
"The Romantic King's gambit" is a collection of commented games which Santasiere willed to Ken Smith after his death in 1977. It was published by Chess Digest in 1992 with some newer game fragments added. It is dated now, but if you can ignore the verbose it is still an inspiring work.
Santasiere's idea was to play g2-g3 in the Hanstein before castling. So he did play Bc4. My idea was to also postpone Bc4, since in some cases the bishop is better at b5, and it is more pressing to cover e3 with Bc1-e3, so White can indeed play Nc3 instead of the passive c3 (which you will read in some books [e.g. Estrin/Glazkov] is necessary). So white forces the issue on f4 before deciding where the whitefielder goes.
Of course, Johann Furhoff's games are worth studying and he should be credited with inventing the whole idea.
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #52 - 06/15/11 at 22:45:23
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Just a few lines as examples of white's problems after 20...Qf6 or 20...Qe7

  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #51 - 06/15/11 at 18:31:27
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I've read this fascinating thread from start to finish, and the one thing I find missing is any serious analysis of the initial game!

Shirov's moves in this game baffled me. Playing at blitz speed I can usually predict most of the moves and work out most of the rest. But this game was completely beyond me. I know, I could turn on my favorite silicon beast to find some answers, but I'd rather see what TJ, Paddy, Dragonslayer and Stephan have to say about it.

(Adding the pgn file as text is a bit cumbersome, but certainly not too onerous. I'll try to remember to do that when I make future posts.)
  
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MNb
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #50 - 06/14/11 at 17:55:14
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[quote author=5C6A797F77766B7479617D6A180 link=1305856339/49#49 date=1308061441]I got this idea from Santasiere's book where he plays g3 before castling.
If you also keep the bishop on f1 you gain another tempo for implementing the main plan.[/quote]
Can you give some details of that book? I stole the idea when I discovered some games of Johan Furhoff.
  

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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #49 - 06/14/11 at 14:24:01
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[quote author=12113D5F0 link=1305856339/34#34 date=1306758744][quote author=0134391F30363D3C3B550 link=1305856339/33#33 date=1306749960][i]If[/i] the Hanstein ideas with an early g3 and/or h4 would work, liberating Bc1, then the variation would be viable, but advancing on the queenside while behind in development is not how I want to play the KG.[/quote]
Pretty much my feeling as well. I happen to disagree with RJ Fischer here: if Black plays ...g4 and ...f3 White is fine. It's Alapin's ...Bh3 that troubles me. Hence the idea of playing g2-g3 with the Bishop still on f1 - so either 4.Nc3 or 4.d4.
[/quote]
I agree completely. Hundreds of hours searching for a solution to the Kieseritzky enigma and looking at the Greco-Philidor has led me to believe that g2-g3 is the right approach to break Black's pawn phalanx and hold on f4 in order to liberate the bishop on c1.
As I explain in the NIC yearbook 93 and 95, I think there is plenty of evidence (Alapin's ...Bh3) in favour of keeping the bishop on f1. I got this idea from Santasiere's book where he plays g3 before castling.
If you also keep the bishop on f1 you gain another tempo for implementing the main plan.

P.S. Just saw Spassky-Karpov, world tv cup 1982 on youtube, where Black closed the kingside with ...g4 and ...f3. I remember seeing this game in "Das neue Königsgambit" two decades ago being very impressed with Spassky's play, but seeing the man himself in action adds something else to it.

P.P.S.
It's good to have you back Stefan!
  
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Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #48 - 06/14/11 at 01:32:22
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Finally a ½point for the defence. 20...Qg7 21.Nf3! can be called close enough.

As I mentioned originally, Black has [i]a lot of[/i] promising moves, but if [i]I[/i] need to prove everything down to the Nalimov ending every time, it becomes an exercise in futility. Especially since not even you seem to believe 11.Qc7 is sound.

Anyway, the first in the list of possible improvements is probably 20...Qf6 and Black is winning again. :)
  
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