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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: A system against french for 1450 elo kid (Read 22855 times)
Bibs
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #36 - 07/12/11 at 10:55:01
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Rubbish much of this.

Kids generally don't need theory? Kids? Doesn't matter about age, look at the rating.

Funny people assuming that 'kids' are duffers.

v French, 4Qd3 v Winawer (as all opponents will take on e4). Bits out quickly, Qh4 Bd3, Bg5 off we go. Forward, turn right. Sound, hacky.

Or, yeah, c4 exchange.

Advance: no, too complex. Too many irrational positions. You may note that Moskalenko and Williams  were writing books for black.
  
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ruhroh
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #35 - 07/12/11 at 03:44:45
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/09/11 at 00:10:09:
I agree that kids generally don't need theory.

But if their opening choice is supported by theory, it will be easier for them to learn theory later. That's one reason I recommended the French Advance. I still believe it's the most principled response to the French, the most natural, and one of the easiest to learn.


Smylsov_Fan has some support ...

"The best way to learn the genuine French Defence is to play the Advance Variation" (Victor Moskalenko, Flexible French p9)

"If you get to grips with the Advance I think you'll find it alot easier to learn the other openings." (Simon Williams, Killer French Defence DVD)

  
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MNb
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #34 - 07/09/11 at 14:45:41
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ErictheRed wrote on 07/08/11 at 23:04:22:
I still think all of you are nuts for recommending "systems" instead of just logical developing moves to a 1400ish kid, but I guess I'm the only one to think that...

......

Kids this young don't need theory,

This two statements are not the same. There are quite a few openings which entirely consist of logical developing moves and which can be taught to 8-years old kids.
When they are 12 or so they are generally ready for slightly more complicated stuff.
I agree though that it's foolish to concentrate on opening theory. The essentials and a showing (not remembering) a few lines should be enough.
Rule of thumb: if you can explain what the purpose of an opening move is and the kind understands it you can show it.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #33 - 07/09/11 at 00:10:09
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I agree that kids generally don't need theory.

But if their opening choice is supported by theory, it will be easier for them to learn theory later. That's one reason I recommended the French Advance. I still believe it's the most principled response to the French, the most natural, and one of the easiest to learn.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #32 - 07/08/11 at 23:04:22
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I still think all of you are nuts for recommending "systems" instead of just logical developing moves to a 1400ish kid, but I guess I'm the only one to think that...

I've recently started coaching an 8 year old currently rated 1586.  He doesn't know much, if any, theory, but he knows how to play chess pretty well.  He never gets bad games out of the opening unless he's pretty seriously outclassed (opponent rated 1900 or so).  We go over tactics, simple endgames, calculation exercises, typical strategies in the pawn structures that come up in his games.  We talk about decision making: if we're looking at a game of his, I'll stop at various times and point out that White is offering an exchange of Bishops, is this a good or bad deal for us?  If we take his Knight, what is more important: the doubled pawns or the open file?  Which side would benefit from a Queen exchange?  In this position, you can choose between gaining space (f2-f4) or developing a piece (Ng1-f3).  Which is better, and why?

Kids this young don't need theory, I'm adamant about this, but seeing that I'm already blue in the face I guess I'm done.
  
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spagh3tti
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #31 - 07/08/11 at 05:45:13
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I'm seeing a lot of people recommending 3.Nc3, which is strange. The Winawer is not so easy to play, it often requires concrete play and you gotta know your stuff a little bit. I would also advise against the Advance as it also requires some not exactly intuitive means to be properly played. Personally I think the Tarrasch would allow him to get through the opening by fairly intuitive means without the risk of causing major damages in the first ten moves.
« Last Edit: 07/08/11 at 07:58:35 by spagh3tti »  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #30 - 07/07/11 at 23:02:39
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Also something like 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+  6. bc Ne7 7. Nf3 Nbc6 8. Bd3 0-0 is hardly out of the question at ~1450 level ...
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #29 - 07/07/11 at 21:43:12
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There are very few things more rewarding to a weak player than winning a Winawer French as White.  The sheer tottery-ness of those positions to beginners teaches them to actually review their position's weaknesses rather than just relying on having a solid or simple position.  What's weak?  What's strong?  Who knows!

I suffered against the French, mostly because I had an awful record in the Winawer Variation.  It's hard to understand, but by that very token, valuable to understand.  Besides, the Poisoned Pawn has some traps for Black that lots of scholastic-type players will fall into, e.g. 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e5 c5 5 a3 Bxc3 6 bxc3 Ne7 7 Qg4 Qc7 8 Qxg7 Rg8 9 Qxh7 cxd4 10 Ne2 Nc6 11 f4 dxc3 12 Qd3 Bd7 13 Nxc3 a6 14 Rb1 0-0-0??, which is one of the funniest ways to sac a Queen I've ever seen.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #28 - 06/17/11 at 00:46:58
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urusov wrote on 06/16/11 at 23:39:13:
Actually, I hope the kid is reading. The most important thing he might learn from chess is that all fields of knowledge are contested territories.

Depends on his/her age. Before about 12 years old they are not receptive for this approach. Such a young kid needs a teacher who tells him/her "play this, it is good" plus a short explanation why.
  

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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #27 - 06/16/11 at 23:39:13
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Actually, I hope the kid is reading. The most important thing he might learn from chess is that all fields of knowledge are contested territories.  There are few definitive answers, and certainly none that apply to every case.  That's why we play, after all.  That's one of the greatest lessons you can get from chess at a young age: reading multiple texts full of conflicting opinions, listening to multiple reasonable ideas about the same position or opening -- each informed by equally reasonable assumptions about how to decide -- expands your consciousness.  Reading theoretical discussions like these forces you to examine multiple perspectives and develop a meta-critical consciousness that pushes kids toward more advanced knowledge.  That's why so many chess players become academics or pursue advanced study.  Chess has prepared their brains for it.  And it has taught them, in the end, to listen and then decide for themselves what to believe based on their own practice or analysis.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #26 - 06/16/11 at 17:04:54
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Keano wrote on 06/16/11 at 15:45:41:
The 1450 kid must be well and truly confused by now.


No kidding.  I mean, he's rated 1450 and he's a kid.  Just have him develop sensibly, he doesn't need a system.  I honestly can't believe all the recommendations on here.  3.Nc3, play a game of chess, who cares about theory at that level?  Have him learn about good opening moves, try to keep Black's light-squared Bishop bottled up, blah blah.

Imagine how confused this 1450 kid is with all the other posts around here.  It's not just a system against the French he's getting!  Have we all forgetten that we play a game called CHESS?  Not multiple games called the French Defence--Winawer Poisoned Pawn Variation, The Clasical Sicilian Defence, Richter/Rauzer Variation, etc.  Just teach him to play CHESS for God's sake.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #25 - 06/16/11 at 16:48:35
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/16/11 at 16:33:51:
My only problem with the Steinitz is that White will also have to learn how to play against the Winawer, and I would rather postpone that sort of lesson.

Actually this is an argument pro the Two Knights because of the transposition 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 (c5 3.d4 Open Sicilian) 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.d4.
Like Chevy said its value depends on 3...d4. The good news for White is that this is a better version of the Van Geet Opening 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4.
  

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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #24 - 06/16/11 at 16:40:48
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Keano wrote on 06/16/11 at 15:45:41:
The 1450 kid must be well and truly confused by now.


ha! I hope he is not reading. Tongue

There are some throughts I have on a few recommendations.

1) Two Knights: The opposite castling lines seem fun. 3..d4 would make me uneasy though, since it radically changes the character of the game to variations of a forcing nature where Black seems to be doing well. Maybe it's about irrevelant at that level though. I'd probably prefer the 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 move order, even though it means more work (Winawer!).

2) Exchange French: I don't like it honestly, but there seem to be reasonable arguments for it, at least as a temporary solution. There are so many logical good lines for Black to make it undesirable. It feels a lot like an avoidance tactic to me, rather than a long term solution.

3) Advance: I think it is very hard to play properly as White at that level!
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #23 - 06/16/11 at 16:33:51
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Having read the various remarks, I'm definitely in agreement with BPaulsen over all these alternatives to the classical method of development.

A beginner should know that there are three goals to every opening, control the center, develop the pieces democratically (toward the center) and protect the king.

When White plays 1.e4, his goal should be to get in d4. This is the logic behind the Scotch, the Spanish, and so many other openings. When Black does not contest the center, White should occupy it. So, when Black plays 1..e6, 1...c6 or 1...g6, white should respond with 2.d4.

My own recommendation remains the Advance Variation, but the Steinitz Variation is another excellent choice. BPaulsen points out that children are sponges. We shouldn't make opening choices based on how easy it is for the teacher to teach a line, but on how the student may use the openings to scaffold their own understanding of the game.

My only problem with the Steinitz is that White will also have to learn how to play against the Winawer, and I would rather postpone that sort of lesson. Hence, my earlier recommendation of the Advance Variation.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #22 - 06/16/11 at 16:20:57
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bragesjo wrote on 06/16/11 at 11:30:16:
The Korchnoi Gambit games/video was a good introduction to opening, but I did not give any lines in diversions like the Rubenstein variation. Also, very few games where covered but still enough for a repertour. I belive Korchnoi gambit is sound, it is played regulary by Michael Adams. I even think I have seen Kasparov play it.


This could probably be easily supplemented with either Bologan or Kasimzdhanov's material on 3.Nc3. Also there is the Guimard, which may not have been covered. Tzermiadianos' book on the Tarrasch could be a good reference to fill in some of the gaps in the minor lines. It also covers the Rubenstein as well.
  
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