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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C01: French Exchange from the Black side (Read 11712 times)
kylemeister
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Re: C01: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #29 - 07/26/11 at 21:49:31
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Another bit:  9...f6 was played by Uhlmann in one of the games in his "Ein Leben lang Französisch."
  
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dom
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Re: C01: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #28 - 07/26/11 at 21:17:07
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I have the same advice but from McDonald & Harley's book (comment roughly like "9...ooo is more from a desire for Black to equalize") ...and in fact the reference game for me is Grau-Nimzowich,San Remo 1930  where Black implements the idea of delaying choice between kingside and queenside castling.

For White I will not advice 10.b4 (true,White has no good reason to give up one tempo and weaknesses..if Black chooses for short castle)
but 10.a4 or 10.Qc2 (forbiding oo...and now it's Black turn to prove that f6 is more useful than a quick Bf5 as in 9...ooo 10.Qc2 Bf5 11.b4 Bxd3 12.Qxd3 Qf5!? (Moskalenko))

The immediate 9...f6 10.Nf1 is in game Blackburne-Rubinstein, St Petersburg 1914 (Psakhis and MCO)
  

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Re: C01: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #27 - 07/26/11 at 20:29:06
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Psakhis mentioned 9...f6 (citing a Rubinstein game) approvingly in "The Complete French" from 1992.
  
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Re: C01: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #26 - 07/26/11 at 20:17:00
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Amet, I like two things in particular about Black's plan with 9...f6:

  • Rubinstein played it!
  • The stronger player tends to win!


I too prefer not to block the c7 pawn in the Exchange French. I do like the slightly different flavor of the lines I've seen, but I think I'll stick to c6/c5 ideas for the most part.
  
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Re: C01: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #25 - 07/26/11 at 19:37:43
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It seems that i am the only one in this world that i believe that the opposite castling positions are in White's favour? At least the positions that everybody discusses and were analysed by Watson, because i think that with a slight modification Black is OK. In fact i am referring to the following idea by Rubinstein:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bd3
(5.h3 is another potential problem)
5...Bd6 6.O-O Nge7 7.c3 Bg4 8.Nbd2 Qd7 9.Re1 and now 9...f6!! a very deep move!

If Black plays 9...O-O-O White will start an attack with b4-Nb3 and so on BUT...

White has to play something. If 9...f6 10.Nf1 then 10...O-O-O! now that the Nf1 cannot easily go to Black's King while the ...f6 move is always usefull in these positions. If White tries to be flexible and play 10.b4 hoping for 10...O-O-O then after 10...O-O! with the idea ...Bf5 he finds himself in a difficult position because in the ...O-O variation the move b4 is out of place and creates weeknesses. See a Moskalenko's game in Flexible French for this theme.

But my main recommendation is the simple 4...Nf6 waiting for c4 to play Bb4+ and Nc6 and if 5.Bd3 ( a bad place for a Bishop in these IQP positions) then 5...c5! The game is unbalanced and Black plays for the win.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #24 - 07/07/11 at 19:03:24
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I know this is a general comment, but I prefer to delay castling as long as possible in the French Exchange. I like when I can get f6 in with a gain of tempo and only really need to worry about my hole on e6. I do find myself castling Q-side quite often, but I like the flexibility. I've even found myself playing Kf7 on occasion!
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #23 - 07/07/11 at 18:43:41
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Fromper wrote on 07/07/11 at 17:55:03:
OrangeCounty wrote on 07/07/11 at 02:21:32:
If you're going to play ...Nc6 without ...c7-c5, consider castling Queenside!


That's my favorite plan in the French Exchange.


Me too (I have curious feeling of repeating again again the same advices  Lips Sealed ).

I will ponder that I prefer to play Nc6 when White has played Bd3 and c3, ..., position (specially pawns) is specific then to engineer some special plan with ooo.

I don't feel it suitable with a quick 4.c4 move (Morphy liked it because he enjoyed center-open lines)...I prefer a quick Bb4+ ; Nf6 ; oo as an answer.

  

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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #22 - 07/07/11 at 17:55:03
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/07/11 at 02:21:32:
If you're going to play ...Nc6 without ...c7-c5, consider castling Queenside!


That's my favorite plan in the French Exchange. It's not boring and symmetric if you're castled on opposite sides. For that matter, that's also why I play the Nc3 line as white against the Petroff.

I'll second the recommendation for McDonald's "How to Play Against 1. e4". Maybe not the most detailed for you high level opening theory buffs, but for us intermediate level patzers, it has good coverage of the Nc6 Exchange and MacCutcheon, which I like, even though I don't follow his recommendations against the Advance and Tarrasch. And McDonald just has a good writing style that's easy to just sit and read, unlike some chess books that are a little too dry.

  

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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #21 - 07/07/11 at 02:21:32
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Everything works!

That's my advice on the French Exchange; there is almost nothing you can do that will get you in serious trouble as long as you look at things first (and, you know, get off the e file).  I like the idea of controlling the e4 square, although I would generally combine this with playing c7-c5, with reasonable IQP positions and/or pressure in the center.  The French Exchange is like a Petroff with a free tempo for Black (which Black must use to play Ne4-f6!).  White has fewer dynamic chances than in the Petroff, but also fewer ways to get in trouble.

If you're going to play ...Nc6 without ...c7-c5, consider castling Queenside!
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #20 - 06/20/11 at 13:21:41
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TN, I will look into that book as my next chess investment.  I just invested in PGN Mentor, so I don't want to buy too many things at once  Cry Cheesy But that being said, I do have a book on complete 1. e4, but it doesn't have much in the French Exchange on ...Nc6.  It basically advocated the ...c5 lines, which aren't terrible obviously.  I just like the idea of ...Nc6, that's all!  Smiley
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #19 - 06/20/11 at 07:19:58
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BirdBrain, this line is covered in 'How to Play Against 1.e4' by Neil McDonald, and provides a good case for ...Nc6 against 4.Nf3 and 4.Bd3. In fact, I highly recommend this book, which will answer several of your questions and give you a reliable and reputable repertoire.

On another note, I think 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 c5 6.0-0 c4 7.Re1 Be7 8.Bf1 0-0 is a good try for Black, which unbalances the position quite a bit while maintaining a very solid position. Even 4.Bd3 c5 is quite sensible, but to enjoy these lines you do have to be happy with IQP positions.
  

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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #18 - 06/20/11 at 04:20:26
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You got it, boss!   Wink

I began to look into this line and found that there are a HIGH number of draws in the line.  What looks the most natural is dxc4, and then of course, d5.  I am not sure if I like c4 a6.  Not that it is terrible, but it seems that White gets some piece play that I don't really like to allow so easily.  But the c4 dxc4 d5 a6 lines...

I did find the following gritty game between a 2300 and a 2400 in this variation with a win for Black...



The link for the game is http://www.chess.com/games/view.html?id=1360347#
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #17 - 06/19/11 at 20:20:52
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Yeah, 6. c4 led to positions that weren't my type, so those are the ones you need to check most.
  

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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #16 - 06/19/11 at 16:11:26
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5...Bd6 is standard, whereupon the interesting move is 6. c4.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #15 - 06/19/11 at 16:03:03
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BPaulsen, I do like the ...Nc6 - I think it is aggressive and provocative.  I will study on the Bb5 variations.  I just played a nice game that actually employs some of the ideas in the ...Nc6 Bb5 variation that SmyslovFan discussed.  Of course, this isn't a high-rated match (1415 v. 1644 chess.com), but the principles you guys are telling me are making sense, and are a big help!  (NOTE - I even ventured 2...d5 against 2. Nf3 this time!  Cheesy thanks to your recommendations BPaulsen - according to what you said, I definitely will be a ...c4 player against the Wing Gambit)



1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.d4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd6 6.O-O Nge7 7.Bg5 O-O 8.Re1 f6
9.Bh4 Ng6 10.Bxc6 bxc6 11.Nc3 Bg4 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Nxh4 14.Qg4 Ng6 15.h4 f5
16.Qh3 Qxh4 17.Qf3 Rae8 18.Red1 Qh2+  0-1

Also - I know I had previously discussed playing ...Bg4 against the Nf3 setup after Nc6, but here, since White already looked like he wanted to part with his light bishop, I decided to retain mine on principle (does this make sense - seems to make sense to me) and went with ...Bd6.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #14 - 06/18/11 at 21:21:31
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I like the old rule that Black should develop his King's Knight to the opposite of what White's king's knight is developed.

In other words, if White chooses Nf3, black should play Ne7 and if white chooses Ne2, Black should play Nf6. This allows Black to play for an unbalanced position with plenty of winning chances.

I have a tremendous plus score when I get to develop Bd6, Ne7 and Bg4/f5. I usually play f6 and often castle K-side. Black's position is solidm, at least equal, and dynamic enough to have plenty of chances to win in the endgame.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #13 - 06/18/11 at 20:58:09
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4...Nf6 just attempts to maintain symmetrical equality, and is therefore ideally suited for playing strictly for the half point barring any major mistakes by white/black.

I don't approve of 4...Bg4 due to the typical 5. h3 Bh5 6. Qe2+! line where, in my opinion, I'm not sure full equality can be expected for black.

4...Nc6 is good. I would play it if I liked the positions after 5. Bb5 better for black, so you should check those lines to make sure they appeal to you.

4...Bd6 has always been my preference since 5. c4 isn't hard to tame, and white's chosen to significantly imbalance the position at that point. If 5. Bd3 then I'll go ahead with 5...Bg4 since the Qe2+ line has been eliminated from the discussion.
  

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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #12 - 06/18/11 at 19:34:59
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That last game is in my book Complete Repertoire with 1. e4, or something like that. 

I guess a deeper question would be this - looking at the stats, after the Exchange, Nf3 seems to be the 2nd most popular line, and after that ...Nc6 is the 4th most popular line.  It looked natural enough to me.  Am I making any concessions by choosing ...Nc6?  It seems to have a healthy win percentage?  I am most interested in these deeper philosophical ideas behind the opening.  Even ...Bg4 is the 3rd most popular idea, and it would be in the realm of this type of game - working on the retreat to g6.  Just some ideas - interested in seeing what others think on here. 

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

In this position, ...Nc6 or ...Bg4, philisophically speaking, or the other two more popular lines, ...Nf6 and ...Bd6, and why?  If it is important to contest Bd3, then wouldn't it be a good idea to fight for the b1-g8 diagonal as quick as possible?
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #11 - 06/18/11 at 18:21:13
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And here's one of the classics of what to do when White stops Bg4:



[Event "Beersheba"]
[Site "Beersheba"]
[Date "1978.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Tatai, Stefano"]
[Black "Kortschnoj, Viktor"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C01"]
[WhiteElo "2455"]
[BlackElo "2665"]
[PlyCount "28"]
[EventDate "1978.02.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "13"]
[EventCountry "ISR"]
[EventCategory "8"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Bd3 c5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Qe2+ Be7 7. dxc5 Nf6 8.
h3 O-O 9. O-O Bxc5 10. c3 Re8 11. Qc2 Qd6 12. Nbd2 Qg3 13. Bf5 Re2 14. Nd4 Nxd4
0-1
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #10 - 06/18/11 at 17:17:33
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Regarding ...Nc6 plus ...Bg4 versus Nf3, what is seen here is, I believe, one of the standard lines of the Exchange.

[Event "Stockholm Rilton cup"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Ong, Kezli"]
[Black "Berg, Emanuel"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2325"]
[BlackElo "2529"]
[NIC "FR 1.4.7"]
[ECO "C01"]
[PlyCount "122"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Nf3 Bd6 5. Bd3 Nc6 6. c3 Nge7 7. O-O Bg4 8. Re1
Qd7 9. Nbd2 O-O-O 10. b4 Ng6 11. Nb3 Rde8 12. Be3 Nh4 13. Be2 Nf5 14. Bd2 Rxe2 15.
Qxe2 Nh4 16. b5 Nb4 17. Ne5 Bxe2 18. Nxd7 Nc2 19. Rxe2 Nxa1 20. Ndc5 Nxb3 21. axb3
Nf5 22. h3 b6 23. Nd3 Kd7 24. Ne5  Bxe5 25. Rxe5 Ne7 26. Kf1 a6 27. bxa6 Ra8 28.
c4 dxc4 29. bxc4 Rxa6 30. Ke2 f6 31. Rh5 h6 32. Kd3 Ra3  33. Bc3 Ra2 34. Bd2 Ra3 
35. Bc3 Ra2 36. Bd2 c6 37. g4 Ra3  38. Ke4 Ra4 39. Kd3 Ra3  40. Ke4 Ra4 41. Kd3 Ke6
42. h4 Ra3  43. Ke4 Rb3 44. Bf4 Kf7 45. d5 cxd5  46. cxd5 f5  47. gxf5 Ng8 48. Be5
Nf6  49. Bxf6 Kxf6 50. d6 Rb2 51. f4 Rd2 52. Rg5 hxg5 53. fxg5  Kf7 54. Ke5 Re2 
55. Kf4 b5 56. h5 b4 57. h6 gxh6 58. gxh6 Re8 59. Kg5 b3 60. h7 b2 61. d7 Rd8 0-1
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #9 - 06/18/11 at 13:43:20
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I think ...Bg4 against Nf3 looks logical. Black often plays ...Nge7 instead of ...Nf6, to be able to break a pin by ...f6, to avoid Qe2+ and to be able to play ...Bf5. As mentioned, Black would often like to exchange the white-squared bishops and therefore Bd3 is often played quite early. Allowing Black to go ...Bg4-h5-g6 seems like a sub-optimal way for White.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #8 - 06/18/11 at 13:11:30
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I do agree that Be3 looks "passive" - but it isn't terrible.  As a matter of fact, I remember researching some old French lines and found that this used to be a strong weapon in the hands of Mieses - Be3.

That being said, I was wondering the general consensus on the idea of ...Nc6 and ...Bg4.  It seems fair enough for me - I found a few games on www.365chess.com with decent results.  Unless someone else has a "better" plan against Nf3 in the Exchange?
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #7 - 06/18/11 at 12:46:14
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I agree, Be3 looks a bit passive. However, there are several games with similar lines played. See Attacking Chess: The French, e.g. Conquest-Glek, and S. Kasparov-Gurevich.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #6 - 06/18/11 at 09:02:39
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One main idea in French Exchange is for Black to trade the light square bishops and for White to trade the dark square bishops.

Valid only for some lines because sometimes one side want to play vs c-doubled pawns (be: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5).

In your game, White played weak moves like 5.Be3 (somewhat passive) and couple of moves (Bd3,c3) and finally you got a normal position as Black vs weird one for White, in the Kasparov line of the French Exchange : which is with an early Nc3; Qe2+ ; Be3 ; ooo plan.
« Last Edit: 06/18/11 at 11:09:53 by dom »  

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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #5 - 06/18/11 at 05:55:33
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Well, White's KB is generally his "good bishop" in the French, but this can't be taken too far; I can think of a number of "book" lines in which White is reckoned to be slightly better despite a trade of light-squared bishops.  I suspect in a venue like chess.com you might see people playing something on the order of 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bb5 followed by Bxc6, which is horrific.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #4 - 06/18/11 at 01:19:30
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I was telling my friend about this variation, and he is a friend of Kaidanov.  Kaidanov told him that the key to dismantling the White side of the French is to get rid of the light squared bishop.  So there you go - I assume there were others who already knew that?  But I thought it was nice to include it, in case there is someone else trying to learn the lines.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #3 - 06/18/11 at 01:15:03
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White's (loosening) play reminds me of a game given in the chapter on the Exchange in Edmar Mednis's book "Practical Opening Tips."  It was a representative game from his days playing in NYC high-school events, where many of his opponents played the Exchange, but always lost.
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #2 - 06/18/11 at 01:10:54
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http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=13&n=92653&ms=e4.e6.d4.d5.exd5.exd5.Nf3.Nc...

I actually did find that my idea has been essayed a few times by strong players.  But I will look into Uhlmann, thank you very much!
  
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Re: French Exchange from the Black side
Reply #1 - 06/18/11 at 00:40:05
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Spend some time studying GM games. Start with Uhlmann games in exchange.
  
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C01: French Exchange from the Black side
06/18/11 at 00:29:55
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I suppose if I am going to learn all the ins and outs of the French, a few pointers would be nice. 

I just won what I think was a nice game from the Black side of the French Exchange.  My idea was not common - according to chess.com, no one has tried my idea - after exd exd, Nf3 Nc6 Be3 Bg4.  I retreated my bishop to g6, and continued to put pressure on the e4 square.  I have the .pgn - any constructive criticism is appreciated.  Also, what do you think of the ...Nc6/Bg4 idea?

« Last Edit: 07/21/11 at 12:34:35 by dom »  
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