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Normal Topic Queen's Gambit Declined move order question (Read 3130 times)
Keano
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Re: Queen's Gambit Declined move order question
Reply #4 - 08/06/11 at 21:11:47
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Markovich wrote on 07/31/11 at 01:31:42:
Black also has to have something against 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.Qc2 intending 5...O-O 6.Bg5.  In passing, I think 8.O-O-O is even stronger than 8.e4.

This line is considered at length in Jobn Bartholomew's latest (and first) update.


Yes - I discovered first-hand this lesson after being utterly beaten up by a GM who played this against me. It was even more embarassing because I was up on a stage with the game going live on a big screen and after Qc2 I went into deep thought like a complete idiot! Lesson is - prepare your openings properly. This is the "Eingorn variation" and the line the GM showed me after involving ...dxc4 and ...Nc6 is playable but since then I have come to the conclusion 5...c5! is best. There are lots of games here, and if Black knows his stuff he is doing quite well in my opinion, but dont be like me - be prepared!
  
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Markovich
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Re: Queen's Gambit Declined move order question
Reply #3 - 07/31/11 at 01:31:42
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Black also has to have something against 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.Qc2 intending 5...O-O 6.Bg5.  In passing, I think 8.O-O-O is even stronger than 8.e4.

This line is considered at length in Jobn Bartholomew's latest (and first) update.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: Queen's Gambit Declined move order question
Reply #2 - 07/30/11 at 17:33:50
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OK, here goes:

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.Nf3, the move 5..h6 is the most precise way of reaching the Tartakower or Lasker.  The reason is that White has not yet moved the e-pawn, having played 5.Nf3 instead of 5.e3. 

If, after 5.Nf3, Black plays 5..0-0, it gives White the option of 6.Qc2 h6 7.Bxf6 Bxf6 8.e4.  With Black's King already committed to the Kingside, White can meet 8..dxe4 with 9.Qxe4, intending to follow up with Bd3.  Your computer may tell you that Black is OK here, but, in practice, White does well from these positions because of the weak light squares on Black's Kingside. 

It is considered better to avoid all this by meeting 5.Nf3 with the immediate 5..h6.  Now, if White tries 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.e4, Black still has the option of castling Queenside.  For example, 7..dxe4 8.Nxe4 Nc6 9.Nxf6 Qxf6 10.Qd3 b6 11.Qe4 Bb7 12.Ne5 when Black plays Efim Geller's discovery 12..0-0-0!  White will win a pawn after 13.Nxc6 Rd6 14.Nxa7+ Kb8 15.Qe5 Kxa7, but he only has his Queen developed, while Black will play ..Rhd8 and be ready for action.  So this is perfectly fine for Black.

Hope this helps.   Cool    
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: Queen's Gambit Declined move order question
Reply #1 - 07/29/11 at 21:54:33
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The timing of ...h6 isn't of paramount importance because in almost all lines, Black is going to play 0-0 and White, e2-e3.  I guess it makes sense to delay it but I'm not aware of any Orthodox lines where White plays e2-e4 in one move with an advantage, so I doubt it should be critical, as White needs to make e2-e3 part of his plan anyway.  Did you have something in mind where White could benefit from avoiding e2-e3?
  
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snakebite
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Queen's Gambit Declined move order question
06/25/11 at 09:51:01
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I have seen two move orders for reaching the Orthodox QGD
a) 1 d4 d5  2 c4 e6  3 Nc3 Nf6  4 Nc3 Be7  5 Bg5 h6
b) 1 d4 d5  2 c4 e6  3 Nc3 Nf6  4 Nc3 Be7  5 Bg5 00  6 e3 h6
Can anybody explain the benefits of one over the other?  As far as I can see line b) avoids certain lines of the Petrosian (especially the recent game Grischuk-Gelfand...although I don't think that it is necessarily something to be avoided),but invites things like 6 Qc2 and 6 Rc1.
  
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