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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) simple plan against the Pirc? (Read 19226 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #47 - 09/23/14 at 10:52:34
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emary
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #46 - 11/19/11 at 10:49:53
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Hello,

our original moveorder has been 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6, so this way the Pirc is a very seldom sideline in OP's repertoire. Maybe it is reasonable to avoid it.

3.Bd3 or even 3.Nd2 are options not covered in Vigus great book about the Pirc. Idea is to vary as soon as possible, stay flexible, deny Black targets, restrict the Bg7 with c3 and play a game of chess ala Ruy Lopez starting at move 3.

With 1.d4 d6 Black wants to play on his homeground early on, after the third move it could be White's homeground.

Sources:
Kaufman: The Chess Advantage in Black and White (Only after 1...g6 moveorder, because he doesn't like  1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 d5 =
for White) I would analyze this line a little further and look if you like the resulting endgames.

Barsky's book about the Philidor (this is a Black repertoire book):
He argues that after 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Bd3 Black is in danger to get a passive position. 3...c5 transposes to a good c3 Sicilian, so he thinks 3...e5 is obligatory. Barsky analyses 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 Bg7 in some depth.

3.Nd2 is also covered by Barsky. It looks ridicolous, but at least it avoids Kaufman's equalising line after 3.Bd3. It can transpose to 3.Bd3, but you lose some transpositions to good KID after 3.Nd2. Barsky analyses 3...g6 and 3...e5, so his book could be a starting point for White. He mentions Rublevsky, Godena, Dvoirys and Zagrebelny as strong players using 3.Nd2.

Btw:
If you play 3.Nc3 don't underestimate the Philidor:

3.Nc3 e5 or 3.Nc3 Nd7 ?! intending 4...e5.
Barsky wrote one book about 1.d4 d6 and one book about 1.e4 d6 aiming for the Philidor. So after your moveorder you have an increased probability to get one.
There are some games with  Black winning very quickly, if White misplays 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe5...




  
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fling
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #45 - 11/15/11 at 21:49:33
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Of course! I was only looking at the 6 ...Nfd7 lines, which is the Vaisser-Palac-line. In this one, 16. Nd5! seems like a killer for White.

The Austrian attack must for sure be a critical line.

Thanks for your answer!
  
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PatzerKing
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #44 - 11/15/11 at 21:05:56
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Hi "fling",

I checked my analysis and see no problems for Black in the 5...o-0 6.e5 line:

[Event ""]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Pirc, Austrian Attack early e5"]
[Black "4. f4 Lg7 5.Sf3 0-0 6. e5"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B09"]
[Annotator ""]
[PlyCount "22"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]
[SourceDate "2008.07.24"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 O-O 6. e5 dxe5 7. dxe5 (7. fxe5
Nd5 8. Bc4 Nb6 9. Bb3 Nc6 10. Be3 Na5 11. Qe2 Nxb3 12. axb3 f6 13. O-O c6) 7...
Qxd1+ 8. Kxd1 Rd8+ (8... Nh5 $5 9. Be3 (9. Bc4 Bg4 10. Ke1 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Nc6
12. Be3 e6 13. Ne4 Bh6 14. Ng5 Bxg5 15. fxg5 Nxe5 16. Be2 Ng7 $11) (9. Ke1 Nc6
10. Be3 Bg4 11. Kf2 f6 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nd5 e6 14. Nxc7 Rac8 15. Nb5 Be7 16.
c3 a6 17. Nbd4 Nxd4 18. Bxd4 Nxf4 19. Rd1 Rcd8 $15) 9... Bg4 10. Be2 Nc6 11.
Ke1 f6 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nd5 Bxb2 14. Rb1 e6 15. Nxc7 Rac8 16. Nb5 Bg7 $11) 9.
Bd3 Ne8 10. Ke2 Nc6 11. Be4 f6 $11 *

This is what I saved in my repertoire database. Hope this helps.

Regarding the other variations:
- g3-Variation: I agree with you also I see no probems for Black in most of the lines
- 4.Be3 + 5.Qd2: I don´t think, Black can play the 4...Bg7-Line as mentioned in the Dangerous Weapon-book. Didn´t find any good variation/defense for Black in the line after 0-0-0,f3 and direct Bh6 of White. So, Black should play 4...c6
- 4.Bg5: Has its venom but Black should be ok
-Classical and acc classical: Should be also ok for Black but Black nedds to know how he can create counterplay
- Austrian Attack: My opinion is that this is the critical variation for Black
  
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fling
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #43 - 11/15/11 at 20:01:36
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gwnn wrote on 07/02/11 at 13:44:11:
So is there a low-maintenance method white can play against the pirc? I don't mind if Black has a way of equalising, as long as I have a space advantage and a simple plan that can be followed through.


I think that the g3-variation could fit this description too, right?

As far as the Austrian attack goes, is there any improvement known on Vaisser-Palac, 2000, in the 5... 0-0 variation?
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #42 - 07/21/11 at 22:55:31
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/20/11 at 00:31:17:
Everything has to be taken seriously in the Pirc. That's another reason it's not that popular.


I like this as an explanation.

The 4. Bg5 line is a lot more fun for White than Black, even if it isn't a clear edge for White in any particular line.  The idea is to play f4, Qd2 and castle long, but there's nothing forcing White to put pieces anywhere (except Bd3, and Black has to spend tempi on c7-c6 and b7-b5 to even force that).
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #41 - 07/20/11 at 10:35:16
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Bibs wrote on 07/20/11 at 01:05:49:
One of the lines, kinda yes. As I found out v Nakamura.
One of the lines, no.

It remains an outstanding book.


Please, can you explain a bit more about these lines?
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #40 - 07/20/11 at 01:05:49
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Fllg wrote on 07/19/11 at 17:04:32:
Stigma wrote on 07/19/11 at 11:36:16:
I don't understand why 4.Bg5 as played by Tiviakov, Nakamura, Motylev etc. isn't on that list, since it looks very critical to me. I'm just thankful it isn't played more often (against me or in general)!


Is something wrong with the treatment given by Vigus in "The Pirc in Black and White"?

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.f4 c6 6.Qd2 b5 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.0-0 Qb6 10.Ne2 he gives 10... c5! while 10... e5 looks interesting too. Of course there are other possibilities for both sides but it is my impression that Black has enough counterplay here.

But you are certainly right that 4.Bg5 has to be taken as serious as 4.Be3 or 4.f4.


One of the lines, kinda yes. As I found out v Nakamura.
One of the lines, no.

It remains an outstanding book.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #39 - 07/20/11 at 00:31:17
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Everything has to be taken seriously in the Pirc. That's another reason it's not that popular.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #38 - 07/19/11 at 17:04:32
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Stigma wrote on 07/19/11 at 11:36:16:
I don't understand why 4.Bg5 as played by Tiviakov, Nakamura, Motylev etc. isn't on that list, since it looks very critical to me. I'm just thankful it isn't played more often (against me or in general)!


Is something wrong with the treatment given by Vigus in "The Pirc in Black and White"?

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.f4 c6 6.Qd2 b5 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.0-0 Qb6 10.Ne2 he gives 10... c5! while 10... e5 looks interesting too. Of course there are other possibilities for both sides but it is my impression that Black has enough counterplay here.

But you are certainly right that 4.Bg5 has to be taken as serious as 4.Be3 or 4.f4.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #37 - 07/19/11 at 11:36:16
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The viability of the Classical Pirc for White depends very much on playing strength IMHO. Some of the easiest wins I've had in the Pirc are against weaker players choosing the (Be2) Classical to avoid sharp theory, allowing Black's slow ...b5 break and then getting positionally outplayed.

So the Classical shouldn't just be played on a whim; White should be familiar with the best plans for both sides and some theory, and ideally be a decent positional player himself.

I see the party line repeated here that the Austrian and 4.Be3 are the critical lines against the Pirc. I don't understand why 4.Bg5 as played by Tiviakov, Nakamura, Motylev etc. isn't on that list, since it looks very critical to me. I'm just thankful it isn't played more often (against me or in general)!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #36 - 07/19/11 at 00:56:59
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One advantage of classical is that black is basically playing for draw and getting anything better than worse endgame is huge achievement.
In all those f3-g4 lines and in Austrain black gets interesting play which they are usually more familiar with than white player.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #35 - 07/19/11 at 00:33:00
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/18/11 at 16:56:28:
3. I thought that the Pirc was in some trouble theoretically, both in the Austrian and the more professional Be3 lines.  If not, why does White score so heavily in the line and why doesn't anyone at a high level play it OTB?


The Austrian remains the acid test, but even there it's not clear black's doing all that poorly.

Black is harder to play in general due to the flexibility required (whereas white is usually playing the same moves in slightly different orders which can often necessitate dramatically different responses), requires more accuracy, and his best moves are often counterintuitive.

Why play that when black has so many other options against 1. e4 that are promising without the drama? That's where the answer lies for titled players.

And oh yeah - statistics really don't mean jack. A line can be at 90% in 10 games, but the one loss could be the only one with actual theoretical importance.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #34 - 07/18/11 at 22:04:31
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/18/11 at 16:56:28:
get an idea when to develop the Ng1, when to play f2-f3, when to castle (and where).

When to play f2-f3 is easy: when Black castles Kingside. Avoid 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.f3 though because of 6...e5 and evt. 6...c5. Accurate is 6.0-0-0 and 7.f3.
To cut down on theory White may eventually also consider answering ...c6 with f2-f3. Eg 4...c6 5.f3 (or even 5.Qd2 first) Bg7 (5...Qb6 6.Qc1 and I am not convinced that Qb6 is better placed than Qc1; 5...b5 6.Qd2 Nbd7 and there are one or two lines in which Black benefits from not having played Bg7 yet) 6.Qd2 b5 but I still think this is equal. It's by far not a sterile equality; usually some patient manoeuvring is required. As I already wrote White's biggest problem is to find good squares for Ng1 and Bf1.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #33 - 07/18/11 at 16:56:28
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1. Kasparov-Topalov wasn't relevant to theory when it was played; both players were trying to avoid critical lines.
2. Given that we're looking for a line for a non-master, it's hard not to propose just hacking away with Be3/Qd2/h2-h4-h5.  Playing the line a lot, and analyzing afterwards, is a good way to get an idea when to develop the Ng1, when to play f2-f3, when to castle (and where).  You have two plans:
a. Mate Black on the h file (or on e8 if he doesn't castle).
b. Take advantage of Black's Queenside pawn weaknesses and lack of central space.
3. I thought that the Pirc was in some trouble theoretically, both in the Austrian and the more professional Be3 lines.  If not, why does White score so heavily in the line and why doesn't anyone at a high level play it OTB?
  
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